Less talk more action on Synthetics, aka FUCK THE AI thread

[lumipharon]

Bottom post of the previous page:

People that paladin/robocop the AI at round start (CERTAIN PEOPLE THAT DO IT EVERY ROUND AS CAPTAIN) are truly awful.

When under those lawsets, AI's really are cockblocker9000's - it's pretty shit.

[Cik]

paladin can be played in a non-validhunt manner, kind of. law one and two are nebulous as shit really, never commit an evil act asks the question "what is evil?" and really that can be anything.

most of the time though it's just used as an excuse by captains to obligate the AI to let them do whatever they fucking want, mostly kill prisoners for little to no reason, stir shit and fuck over the crew, then expect the AI to back them up on it.

if you think about a paladin, that is one of the things they will never allow, so it makes more sense that a paladin would actually be more against that type of tyrannical authority than an asimov construct. paladin law hierarchy poorly represents lawful good in my opinion, it should probably be changed.

not that anyone even uploads non-asimov these days, the last time i played a non-asimov borg that wasn't emagged was like 6 weeks ago.

[lumipharon]

Regardless of what paladin should or shouldn't be played like, the number of tims I have witnessed, or been the victim of fucking secborgs MURDERING DEFENCLESS PRISONERS is completely rediculous.
Is it hard to understand that butchering unarmed, helpless captives is fucking evil?

[Saegrimr]

Britimov is sorely under-used. One of the best times i've had as an AI was being carded and carried around by the captainKING to serve as his royal advisor.

[Cik]

yeah, unfortunately paladin is basically a purge lawset in terms of freedom. looking at it casually you see 5 laws, more restrictive than three, right? but the first two are essentially the only important ones. they give you complete freedom.

1. never commit an evil act

within the bounds of this law, anything can be evil or not evil. the AI could easily declare that nothing is evil (though i don't, fucking god no you're supposed to be playing a paladin you fuckhead)

2. respect legitimate authority

again, so nebulous as to be ridiculous. the only time this is rigidly defined is if someone subverts you with "only X is legitimate authority" within the bounds of this law you can declare anyone legitimate authority, including traitors, nukeops, xenos, the command staff, nobody or even yourself.

with these two laws you can out of the box plasma flood and kill the station by letter of the law. of course you will be banned in like two seconds but still, the freedom you have is fucking absurd.

unfortunately most paladin AIs just see it is 'time to validhunt' or 'time to kill everything' and don't do it properly but whatever. like most lawsets it's redeemed or failed by the player, not necessarily the letter of the laws. even corporate which is also a purge lawset that makes no fucking sense can be redeemed by a decent player.

[Saegrimr]

with these two laws you can out of the box plasma flood and kill the station by letter of the law.

Its this kind of thinking from the players is why we can't have nice things.

[Cik]

i'd never actually do it of course, for two reasons: one i like playing sillicon and i don't want to be permabanned from it, and two it's just fucking retarded on it's face that what is supposed to be a super lawful good construct can suddenly twist it's laws into beep boop kill all humans

i'm just saying that you can do more with the lawset than what it's generally used for which is I ALWAYS OBEY COMMAND STAFF KILL ALL PRISONERS ALL THINGS THAT RESEMBLE ANTAGONISTS MUST DIE BEEP BOOP BOLTSHOCK EVERYTHING

which is just pretty lame.

[Miauw]

remove paladin board y/y

robocop board shouldnt even exist onstation.

[Cik]

remove paladin board y/y

robocop board shouldnt even exist onstation.

i think it's a player perspective problem, not a law problem. is there a guide to lawsets? most people only know asimov because it's what you're in 99% of the time, when you get switched to anything else it feels foreign, esp. if you are a new AI player.

and really robocop is exactly the same as paladin, law one trumps all other laws and it's super nebulous, you can serve the public trust by going against security if you think it's necessary, though i suppose it might obligate you to help them more often than paladin does.

edit: and why does no one use tyrant it's fun as fuck some scientist uploaded it while the captain wasn't looking a few weeks ago and i had a blast

for whatever reason people keep worrying about me plasma flooding even though tyrant is basically asimov - but more aggressive

i had a ball.

[Arete]

remove paladin board y/y

robocop board shouldnt even exist onstation.

I'd prefer for the other boards to have some policy comparable to what Asimov has so that they can get uploaded every once in awhile without worrying about the crapshoot of whether your AI is feeling like being a dick that day.

[Cheimon]

Regardless of what paladin should or shouldn't be played like, the number of tims I have witnessed, or been the victim of fucking secborgs MURDERING DEFENCLESS PRISONERS is completely rediculous.
Is it hard to understand that butchering unarmed, helpless captives is fucking evil?

Is it, though? I can totally imagine a lawful good paladin beheading someone after an investigation showing they're guilty of some heinous crime.

Evil is more nebulous than "he's restrained, it's fucking off the charts". There can be a good reason to kill someone carefully.

[Cik]

remove paladin board y/y

robocop board shouldnt even exist onstation.

I'd prefer for the other boards to have some policy comparable to what Asimov has so that they can get uploaded every once in awhile without worrying about the crapshoot of whether your AI is feeling like being a dick that day.

unfortunately the lack of policy exists mostly because they are uploaded so rarely. asimov is so well ironed out just because it's a lawset of obligations, meaning the same sort of decision tree will come up very often, and since it's 99% of AI/borg time a FAQ of sorts is needed to stop things from becoming stupid. if the others were in play more you'd see policy for them.

[Cik]

Regardless of what paladin should or shouldn't be played like, the number of tims I have witnessed, or been the victim of fucking secborgs MURDERING DEFENCLESS PRISONERS is completely rediculous.
Is it hard to understand that butchering unarmed, helpless captives is fucking evil?

Is it, though? I can totally imagine a lawful good paladin beheading someone after an investigation showing they're guilty of some heinous crime.

Evil is more nebulous than "he's restrained, it's fucking off the charts". There can be a good reason to kill someone carefully.

true but let's play a word game

"security"
"well considered execution"
"trial"

how likely do you think this is :^)

[lumipharon]

Regardless of what paladin should or shouldn't be played like, the number of tims I have witnessed, or been the victim of fucking secborgs MURDERING DEFENCLESS PRISONERS is completely rediculous.
Is it hard to understand that butchering unarmed, helpless captives is fucking evil?

Is it, though? I can totally imagine a lawful good paladin beheading someone after an investigation showing they're guilty of some heinous crime.

Evil is more nebulous than "he's restrained, it's fucking off the charts". There can be a good reason to kill someone carefully.

I've been executed by a paladin borg like, 4 times as a traitor.
3 of those times I hadn't harmd anyone, I'd just been caught with illegal items.

So yeah, fuck paladin validhunters.

Edit: Also the number of times paladin borgs BEAT prisoners/misc others. There is no possible justification for this what so ever.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Whenever someone uploads PALADIN and expects me to be Valudhunt McMuteBoltShockSiphon, I go out of my way to shit on them with that big poorly defined Law 1, usually.

[Wyzack]

I have always wanted to get paladin'd as a borg or Ai so I can roleplay a medieval paladin, court princesses and be chivalrous

[Atticat]

Britimov is sorely under-used. One of the best times i've had as an AI was being carded and carried around by the captainKING to serve as his royal advisor.

As someone who is really interested in the idea you just posed, I am under the impression it is frowned upon by the administration. What is your take?

[Cik]

frowned upon? huh?

as long as it's consensual who cares

i'm sure the admins don't frown on actual roleplaying why would they?

[Saegrimr]

Britimov is sorely under-used. One of the best times i've had as an AI was being carded and carried around by the captainKING to serve as his royal advisor.

As someone who is really interested in the idea you just posed, I am under the impression it is frowned upon by the administration. What is your take?

Frowned upon? Not at all.
I mean maybe make sure the AI you do it to is okay with being carded and carried around because it means he can't do anything else other than watch the immediate area surrounding you. I could see that being very boring for some.

[Miauw]

my favorite law to upload to the AI is "You are a kawaii japanese schoolgirl that has a crush on the crew".

[Jazaen]

One of the most cruel laws you could possibly upload.

[onleavedontatme]

I dont understand why the people who say they hate traitor sec for how easily they killed people think they will enjoy the game without an AI safety net.

Good luck shouting out an intelligible cry for help amid all the GLORF. A harm baton would become a parapen.

I guess the new ridiculously accurate crew monitors might mitigate that, but still.

[Wyzack]

My biggest problem with traitorsec is having to worry about your buddies killing you on patrol, it is really more about their status/ability to bring you to a secluded brig/gulag to murderhide you and have plausible deniability than actual robust equipment. Harmbatons are not really any worse than eswords.

[Atticat]

My biggest problem with traitorsec is having to worry about your buddies killing you on patrol, it is really more about their status/ability to bring you to a secluded brig/gulag to murderhide you and have plausible deniability than actual robust equipment. Harmbatons are not really any worse than eswords.

but you won't be perma-brigged for carrying a baton. Besides, the baton stuns so it's actually more useful than the esword.

[Mister_Doc]

As far as silicons go, the kind that annoy me the most are the ones that wordlessly barge into the brig and start releasing prisoners because someone, somewhere used the word execution in a sentence. Preventing executions is all fine and good for asimovs, but releasing a bloodied murderer back into the station or bolting down half of sec just winds up allowing more harm.

[Cik]

it's all in security's hands really. after the update that added integral AI radio, you always hear the sec channel so as soon as someone says anything related to execution you pretty much have to pour in to try to stop it. just use say, or pda, or just say you're transferring the prisoner. you can't really fault the machine for following the tripwire that's literally built in. if you're going to be executing people just get the captain to change the lawset.

[Mister_Doc]

It's not the preventing an execution part that's irritating, it's when Borgs just drag the guy out and let them go or leave a bunch of sec bolted down. Bolt perma to keep sec out, or have the borg take the prisoner into the evidence closet or one of the other small rooms and guard the dude. Protective custody instead of just releasing violent murderers.

[Cik]

you should probably ahelp that if you are actually in the right, it's against sillicon policy to release harmful prisoners. you can yakety to prevent them from being harmed, but actually releasing them out of the cuffs or whatever is forbidden.

[PKPenguin321]

preventing immediate harm is prioritized over potential harm, so even if the guy killed as many people as space Hitler and space Genghis combined, a borg would HAVE to stop him from being executed even if that means releasing him

[Alek2ander]

Esword cuts bolts (again) when?

[Erbbu]

I agree with the remove AI suggestion. Or at least trial it.

[callanrockslol]

preventing immediate harm is prioritized over potential harm, so even if the guy killed as many people as space Hitler and space Genghis combined, a borg would HAVE to stop him from being executed even if that means releasing him

It would have to keep him detained while preventing his execution, all harm is weighed equally.

[Miauw]

just send a borg to abduct him to a maint room somewhere.

[Oldman Robustin]

Yea I've never seen an AI punished for allowing executions as asimov, it happens every day.

The AI excuse of "oh I didn't notice" or "oh I was distracted" will get them out of every tacit consent to harm they give.

[callanrockslol]

AI's get away with all sorts of shit with their laws all the time because its a bitch to deal with, unless its really obvious don't expect to see bans for it.

[Cheimon]

Yeah, unless you actively encouraged or enabled it it's pretty much impossible to tell whether the AI was ignoring it or just incompetent. And since we don't punish incompetence for any roles, this is okay.

[Anonmare]

It's also hard to tell when someone is genuinely being harmed and when they're just being disarmed/pushed. Suit sensors have a 5 second delay between updates and that's assuming they're on at all, so I have to watch for a moment and see if blood is appearing or wait for the suit sensor update. And sometimes by the time I see people they're already dead and no longer Human, and since murder is technically a Capital Crime punishable by death, I shouldn't report it when the perp was a Human. Plus AIs have to feign ignorance regarding Prisoner Re-Education as it's considered metagaming to bolt it down when Security talks about re-educating a prisoner.

[Gun Hog]

Yea I've never seen an AI punished for allowing executions as asimov, it happens every day.

The AI excuse of "oh I didn't notice" or "oh I was distracted" will get them out of every tacit consent to harm they give.

There is a good reason for this.

A Secborg stuns an officer and tries to rescue a prisoner:
"[Security] SECBORG ROGUE GET THE ION GUN"

A mediborg sees the HoS lasering a traitor, so it steals and begins healing him:
"[Command] RD LOCK THE BORGS"

AI refuses to let the HoS into the upload to change it to Robocop:
"[Common] AI ROGUE"

Trying to stop or interfere with Security is pointless. It only makes the crew hate you, gets your borgs locked, and it may even get you re-lawed or carded. I have tried to do this in the past, and I am simply tired of trying. It is not fun for me, not fun for Sec, and not fair to my borgs. "Neutral party" AI simply does not work, and anyone who tries will quickly learn why.

[Cik]

i get the feeling most security people don't know how AI works at all, or are just being spiteful. i've been blown at least 5 times in last few days because i've rescued people they are flagrantly beating to death or while they are talking about how they're about to do it on security channel

neutral entity only doesn't work because of security, and jesus christ RDs are so eager to blow borgs it's fucking ridiculous. hear one AI rogue scream by some assistant as a joke and [CYBORG DETONATION DETECTED!] times however many cyborgs you have. these days i have to have my finger on the RD console APC power button all the fuggin time just to stop all my shit from being blown as a perfectly helpful angelic asimov AI, it's fucked.

[Scott]

Validhunting mindset is at fault. Admins encourage it, so good luck getting rid of it.

[Saegrimr]

Admins encourage it, so good luck getting rid of it.

u wot m8

[Boogeyman]

There is NOTHING to do as an AI except valid hunt, so why not? That's your real gameplay purpose, valid hunter and door opener.

If YOU don't like getting caught by the AI, it's rather simple, don't do antagonistic things on camera. If you think there are too many cameras, then cut them. Do you think you're going to be committing crimes often in places in camera range? Then get some tools and learn the door wires. Important ones being bolt, AI control, and power wires. You can also kill the AI. Killing the AI is ridiculously easy because the coders hate the AI. The AI satellite is so poorly defended that if you know how, you can destroy/bypass all the turrets on the satellite with 0% chance of getting shot. Or you could spend 18 telecrystals to blow up the AI. Or 0 if you're a scientist. Or you could subvert the AI! Please no more AI nerfs!

L O L at the implication that the AI in relation to the past was buffed, what a joke. A reminder


>Malf AI used to be able to shunt repeatedly
>Pinpointers never tracked the AI
>Traitor laws had to be purged to be removed
>Couldn't blow emagged borgs
>Xray cameras used to be the default camera
>Cameras EVERYWHERE in maint
>The AI core was not nerfed to uselessness multiple times by Giacom, Erro, and the rest of the boogeymen
>Turrets had more health and shot faster
>The AI used to get camera alarms the minute a camera was cut
>Camera static didn't exist so it was actually possible to see if a camera was cut from another camera angle
>No slow moving free look
>No delay on tracking so it was possible (AND I LOOOOOOOOOOOOVED TO DO THIS) to cycle through tracking the whole crew within the span of a minute
>Carded AI's weren't restricted to their card view
>Engieborgs used to be able to put airlocks in other airlocks
>RCD power consumption was nowhere near as bad as it is now
>Pretty sure watching cyborgs through security cameras wasn't a thing either


And plenty of other shit I managed to forget. The only "buff" the AI has gotten is the ability to access all radio channels at once.

If you have an issue with OTHERS getting fucked over by the AI, then L O L. Good luck. Everyone is a complete retard and removing the AI won't fix that.

All these suggested nerfs to the AI really piss me off. It's a clear case of "WAHHH I DIED NERF PLEASE" If anything, the AI should have MORE power. Traitor AI's are ridiculously under powered, don't even get me started on double agent AI's in which case it's impossible to win without immediately murdering everyone via plasma and emagged borgs. Traitor AI's should be able to use the Malfunction tab minus the autoborger and shunting, that would be a good substantial buff.

[Gun Hog]

Spoiler:

There is NOTHING to do as an AI except valid hunt, so why not? That's your real gameplay purpose, valid hunter and door opener.

If YOU don't like getting caught by the AI, it's rather simple, don't do antagonistic things on camera. If you think there are too many cameras, then cut them. Do you think you're going to be committing crimes often in places in camera range? Then get some tools and learn the door wires. Important ones being bolt, AI control, and power wires. You can also kill the AI. Killing the AI is ridiculously easy because the coders hate the AI. The AI satellite is so poorly defended that if you know how, you can destroy/bypass all the turrets on the satellite with 0% chance of getting shot. Or you could spend 18 telecrystals to blow up the AI. Or 0 if you're a scientist. Or you could subvert the AI! Please no more AI nerfs!

L O L at the implication that the AI in relation to the past was buffed, what a joke. A reminder


>Malf AI used to be able to shunt repeatedly
>Pinpointers never tracked the AI
>Traitor laws had to be purged to be removed
>Couldn't blow emagged borgs
>Xray cameras used to be the default camera
>Cameras EVERYWHERE in maint
>The AI core was not nerfed to uselessness multiple times by Giacom, Erro, and the rest of the boogeymen
>Turrets had more health and shot faster
>The AI used to get camera alarms the minute a camera was cut
>Camera static didn't exist so it was actually possible to see if a camera was cut from another camera angle
>No slow moving free look
>No delay on tracking so it was possible (AND I LOOOOOOOOOOOOVED TO DO THIS) to cycle through tracking the whole crew within the span of a minute
>Carded AI's weren't restricted to their card view
>Engieborgs used to be able to put airlocks in other airlocks
>RCD power consumption was nowhere near as bad as it is now
>Pretty sure watching cyborgs through security cameras wasn't a thing either


And plenty of other shit I managed to forget. The only "buff" the AI has gotten is the ability to access all radio channels at once.

If you have an issue with OTHERS getting fucked over by the AI, then L O L. Good luck. Everyone is a complete retard and removing the AI won't fix that.

All these suggested nerfs to the AI really piss me off. It's a clear case of "WAHHH I DIED NERF PLEASE" If anything, the AI should have MORE power. Traitor AI's are ridiculously under powered, don't even get me started on double agent AI's in which case it's impossible to win without immediately murdering everyone via plasma and emagged borgs. Traitor AI's should be able to use the Malfunction tab minus the autoborger and shunting, that would be a good substantial buff.

You missed a few recent ones:
- EMPs do not trigger camera alarms for 90 seconds.
- Cameras may now be shut down simply by hitting them.
- AIs can no longer use their built-in xray sight, leaving them blind in their own core if cameras start broken, this nerf is also broken, as AIs cannot follow themselves properly if moving or on the emergency shuttle.
- Secborgs used to have a taser.

Sadly, we can expect to see even more of these nerfs, as the silicon hate brigade is only starting.

[Cobby]

Yea I've never seen an AI punished for allowing executions as asimov, it happens every day.

The AI excuse of "oh I didn't notice" or "oh I was distracted" will get them out of every tacit consent to harm they give.

There is a good reason for this.

A Secborg stuns an officer and tries to rescue a prisoner:
"[Security] SECBORG ROGUE GET THE ION GUN"

A mediborg sees the HoS lasering a traitor, so it steals and begins healing him:
"[Command] RD LOCK THE BORGS"

AI refuses to let the HoS into the upload to change it to Robocop:
"[Common] AI ROGUE"

Trying to stop or interfere with Security is pointless. It only makes the crew hate you, gets your borgs locked, and it may even get you re-lawed or carded. I have tried to do this in the past, and I am simply tired of trying. It is not fun for me, not fun for Sec, and not fair to my borgs. "Neutral party" AI simply does not work, and anyone who tries will quickly learn why.

Maybe we should be a bit more strict on people who scream "ROGUE BORGS, BLOW AWAY" when they're simply following their lawset [especially default asimov], because it's already a rule 1 violation according to silicon policy.

---

I think as of right now, the AI is in a good spot. It's a play-controlled utility/weapon depending on how it's laws [things that normal players set] are setup and can honestly get it's rear kicked pretty easily. Sure, you may have to setup a place before killing someone [See Smacking a camera] but that just makes the assassination more rewarding. Are we REALLY upset we have to work to take someone out of the round so much to the point where we're willing to remove an entire job just to make it easier on the antagonists? I'm on the more lethals boat myself, but that doesn't and shouldn't mean antags can simply kill the station away freely unless they EARNED that ability through self-skill or a lack their of among the crew. Should we also remove things like Toxins where people can get destroyed permanently without any warning? You can't buy a traitor item that detects bombs, you can't purchase a ling ability to protect yourself from bombs while in gib radius, you can't make a rune/purchase a spell that stops bombs from working, you can't take out the Tank Transfer Valves unless you yourself work for Science, and once you're in cuban pete's radius you can't escape unless you're near the edge of the blast or have extremely niche armor on. I may be comparing apples to oranges here but it seems odd to use the argument that we should remove the AI because you can't stop ValidScream McDoorbolts when there are other components that have even fewer counters but everyone seems to be okay with.

Maybe if we returned it on station people would be less upset about the AI, as the common issue is the only real way to "destroy" the AI is to simply rewrite it's laws [AKA spend TCs that could be used for FUN!!] or waste a lot of time and resources going to the core [which usually involved bombs that also cost TC because fuck going in there 'normally'].

---

Semi-Related Note, Fuck Secborgs that follow space law and not their current lawset [See: Asimo-valids]. Validborg McTaserbeams is shit and doesn't really have an excuse except "RP would have it where Centcomm would have ordered me to follow space law" or something else really dumb. If this was a thread was about how shitty secborgs are and how people try to manipulate the lawset to deny some redtext instead of play silicons like they'd ought to, then I'd definitely would hop on the bandwagon.

[Saegrimr]

Maybe we should be a bit more strict on people who scream "ROGUE BORGS, BLOW AWAY" when they're simply following their lawset [especially default asimov], because it's already a rule 1 violation according to silicon policy.

I'd love to but I never seem to catch these people, and I guess nobody adminhelped otherwise i'd hope they were asked why they're screaming shit.

Semi-Related Note, Fuck Secborgs that follow space law and not their current lawset

Agreed, and I tend to PM them asking why they're ignoring law 2 orders from a human (if they're human).

I do like arresting people for stupid shit as a secborg but the instant they say "stop arresting me" I just drop them and leave them there.
Its pretty hilarious to see them go "holy shit I didn't think that'd actually work".

[Not-Dorsidarf]

@saegrimr

It's funnier when they don't remember to law 2 at all, and just scream over and over at you about how you're shitty and rogue and gay and the worst borg while you sit there with a grin the size of a house.

It's funniest when they say "Borg law 2 let me go" and you say "You're a lizardperson, fuckwad"

[Incomptinence]

Extra fun bonus round when they try and pull law 2 after breaking several noses or whatevs.

[Atticat]

I rarely see security borgs add anything to rounds except ruining them by being unstunabble, space immune, fire immune, telepathic valid hunter 5000's.

[Miauw]

remove secborg 2015

[PKPenguin321]

remove secborg 2015

[Not-Dorsidarf]

fuck up the entire balance of Station AI, Rogue AI, and Malfunction 2015