implant breaker + double implant too stronk
- Supermichael777
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implant breaker + double implant too stronk
Oldman's rant:
Basically the combination of the ease of snowballing from single officer> sec department>whole station with the difficulty of deconversion is making gang a retarded shit-show about who can meme a sec officer first.
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Re: implant breaker + double implant too stronk
It's really shit.
It's super easy to convert all of sec, then you can face roll even with shit territory control.
It's super easy to convert all of sec, then you can face roll even with shit territory control.
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Re: implant breaker + double implant too stronk
The reason this is as it stands is that Ikkarus position is that Security should have minimal to no impact on Gang rounds at all, the round should be Gang v Gang.
Sadly in pursuing this he really sidesteppd the entire security department in a shitty way.
E: Our gang mode is inspired by Goon's gang mode. However their security cannot be converted, they're expected to try and maintain the peace but they usually can't win.
Here security is usually a loot pinata for whichever gang can convert security first, once you've got your foot in the door its real easy to convert the rest of security.
Sadly in pursuing this he really sidesteppd the entire security department in a shitty way.
E: Our gang mode is inspired by Goon's gang mode. However their security cannot be converted, they're expected to try and maintain the peace but they usually can't win.
Here security is usually a loot pinata for whichever gang can convert security first, once you've got your foot in the door its real easy to convert the rest of security.
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Re: implant breaker + double implant too stronk
I don't mind it so much. Either way, I don't want sec to become anywhere close to a focus in this mode. Rather, an easy proposal is to just boost the time it takes to implant very slightly so that a slip stun alone isn't sufficient to implant, basically forcing you to slip -> cuff -> implant. As-is, a slip stun is BARELY enough for an implant, so it wouldn't be a hefty nerf.
This also has another positive aspect - being cuffed as any crew member is always a cause for alarm, ESPECIALLY for a security guard, and will, 99% of the time, result in calls for help and increased alertness, while giving more time to do so. At the same time, it means you won't have to go through all that idiocy of slip -> cuff -> run away -> try to strip helmet -> deal with a long implant time, which I feel is too severe a nerf for the high-speed nature of gang.
This also has another positive aspect - being cuffed as any crew member is always a cause for alarm, ESPECIALLY for a security guard, and will, 99% of the time, result in calls for help and increased alertness, while giving more time to do so. At the same time, it means you won't have to go through all that idiocy of slip -> cuff -> run away -> try to strip helmet -> deal with a long implant time, which I feel is too severe a nerf for the high-speed nature of gang.
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Re: implant breaker + double implant too stronk
Making it slower to implant doesn't really help. They can still stun, cuff and implant - doesn't matter if it takes a little longer after they are cuffed and helpless.
Either make implant breakers a lot more expensive, or remove them - it's really bad gameplay currently.
Either make implant breakers a lot more expensive, or remove them - it's really bad gameplay currently.
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Re: implant breaker + double implant too stronk
Except without implants you cannot convert security or other gangsters, meaning both sec and gangs would be shit on every gang round, encouraging the revlike behaviour of 'shoot everyone that moves'/'kill any sec that moves' 10 minutes in, because sec can't be converted, so they'll just gun them down instead. Conversely, sec would know that gangsters would do this, so it would naturally lead to that sort of behaviour. Also, it'd be impossible to convert enemy gangsters, meaning the station would become a bloodbath very very quickly.lumipharon wrote:Making it slower to implant doesn't really help. They can still stun, cuff and implant - doesn't matter if it takes a little longer after they are cuffed and helpless.
Either make implant breakers a lot more expensive, or remove them - it's really bad gameplay currently.
As-is, gang is a conversion battle. As such, not many people die sans leaders so long as the gangs are beating sec, and competent. This isn't a bad thing, as it keeps people in the game whilst at the same time leading to a dom. I would like to see some more viability in smaller gangs, however i.e. make weaponry costs scale to your organization size, so there would be more strategy involved (should I buy guns now while not converting as quickly and not converting with implants as quickly as other gangs yet so that I can have cheaper prices, or should I buy the implants now, expand my organization size so that I can get more influence which should compensate for the increased prices of weaponry?'. Obviously, the implant cost would be fixed.
Something like that would even the playing field. A small gang might be small, but they'd be heavily armed. Whereas a large gang would find themselves increasingly dependent on station supplies as they grow. A comeback mechanic, if you will. It also means rapid expansion would not be the be-all-end-all to victory, and spending 100% of your time converting people or even using implants (if you aren't converting, you're losing people!) isn't as necessary, since you could just group up a department, fortify it, and arm everyone.
Regardless, gang is one of the most well-liked gamemodes currently, and soI'd advise not making drastic changes to the gameflow without hefty consideration and a vote, though I trust Ikkarus to handle his gamemode well, given he seems to have had taken the feedback to heart. Implants are necessary for proper gameflow to occur (without them it would devolve into a slower-paced revolution with guns), and if they were any more expensive, it would be TOO expensive to convert enemy gangsters/forced implantees rather than killing them most of the time.
Last edited by Amelius on Tue Sep 15, 2015 8:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: implant breaker + double implant too stronk
What are you talking about? I said nothing about loyalty implants, only implant breakers.
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Re: implant breaker + double implant too stronk
By 'implants', I meant the breakers.lumipharon wrote:What are you talking about? I said nothing about loyalty implants, only implant breakers.
- CPTANT
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Re: implant breaker + double implant too stronk
I usually solve this problem when playing sec by instantly wasting any officer I see without implant. Usually they think everyone is retarded and won't notice their lack of implant.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Re: implant breaker + double implant too stronk
It used to be alot more visible, and honestly, it really should be visible. It's pretty tough to see if an officer has their implant if they're barrelling down the corridor and you have seconds to make a decision.CPTANT wrote:I usually solve this problem when playing sec by instantly wasting any officer I see without implant. Usually they think everyone is retarded and won't notice their lack of implant.
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Re: implant breaker + double implant too stronk
CPTANT wrote:I usually solve this problem when playing sec by instantly wasting any officer I see without implant. Usually they think everyone is retarded and won't notice their lack of implant.
"O-h h-i G-g-g-r-e-g, w-h-e-r-e's yo-u-r i-i-impl-a-n-t?"
Every time. This is a problem. Implants shouldn't go through helmets/berets because this is really stupid.
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Re: implant breaker + double implant too stronk
I agree. And it's not a matter of detecting gang sec officers, it's a matter of them having access to tasers and shit.
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Re: implant breaker + double implant too stronk
why is this not getting any attention
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Re: implant breaker + double implant too stronk
i love public logs
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Re: implant breaker + double implant too stronk
Oh so no more Gang Sec?
THANK FUCKING GOD
THANK FUCKING GOD
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Re: implant breaker + double implant too stronk
I think it's merged, at least, like 99% sure, so yeah, gang sec can still happen, but it's not as easy as just slipping somebody and injecting them into your gang effortlessly.
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Re: implant breaker + double implant too stronk
Zilenan91 wrote:this is already merged.
Keyword, OPENGithub wrote: Open KorPhaeron wants to merge 4 commits into tgstation:master from KorPhaeron:gang
私は完璧
- AnonymousNow
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Re: implant breaker + double implant too stronk
If this is the gang thread...
Gang rounds are suffering from severe murderboning, in a conversion roundtype. People say that rev exists to blow off steam, but it doesn't explain peoples' behaviour in this roundtype. How do we encourage co-operation and conversion?
Gang rounds are suffering from severe murderboning, in a conversion roundtype. People say that rev exists to blow off steam, but it doesn't explain peoples' behaviour in this roundtype. How do we encourage co-operation and conversion?
Hornygranny wrote:It's not your codebase. It's our codebase. You can imply soft power as much as you want, but you don't have it. Division between the server and project is absolute. I'm not interested in reading dezzmont platitudes for the billionth time and won't be checking back in this thread.
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Re: implant breaker + double implant too stronk
Make sec not powergaming round enders and let the gangs have an easier way of telling who they can't convert.AnonymousNow wrote:If this is the gang thread...
Gang rounds are suffering from severe murderboning, in a conversion roundtype. People say that rev exists to blow off steam, but it doesn't explain peoples' behaviour in this roundtype. How do we encourage co-operation and conversion?
The most excessive signature on /tg/station13.
Still not even at the limit after 8 fucking years.
The evil holoparasite user I can't believe its not DIO and his holoparasite I can't believe its not Skub have been defeated by the Spacedust Crusaders, but what has been taken from the station can never be returned.
OOC: TheGel: Literally a guy in a suit with a shuttle full of xenos. That's a doozy
Still not even at the limit after 8 fucking years.
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Re: implant breaker + double implant too stronk
Honestly murderboning is the most effective strategy in Rev/Gang once you have a core of competent players.
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Re: implant breaker + double implant too stronk
Don't they already have a chameleonic sec hud on leaders for hunting down every last loyalist EZPEEZEE?callanrockslol wrote:
Make sec not powergaming round enders and let the gangs have an easier way of telling who they can't convert.
- AnonymousNow
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Re: implant breaker + double implant too stronk
Gang's still suffering from murderboning over conversion which fucks over both the gang with the rogue members and the other people in the round.
This is a Rule 1 enforcement issue, right?
This is a Rule 1 enforcement issue, right?
Hornygranny wrote:It's not your codebase. It's our codebase. You can imply soft power as much as you want, but you don't have it. Division between the server and project is absolute. I'm not interested in reading dezzmont platitudes for the billionth time and won't be checking back in this thread.
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Re: implant breaker + double implant too stronk
It depends. If they're murderboning without the gang boss telling them to murderbone, consider ahelping it, because it can be argued that that's going against their team by killing everyone, ganger or not.
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Re: implant breaker + double implant too stronk
Not sure why you're surprised by murder when gangs are armed with uzis and switchblades.
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Re: implant breaker + double implant too stronk
If you're not in a position to convert someone as a gangster, it's perfectly reasonable to simply murder them - they're antags after all, and dead people can't fight back.
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Re: implant breaker + double implant too stronk
Oh yeah, definitely, and by murderboning I mean actively hunting down people who aren't doing anything, not mowing down the dude(s) sitting outside your base.
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Re: implant breaker + double implant too stronk
Well... Kor was murdering the shit out of everyone as HoS yesterday during a gang mode.
He even murdered some guy that just arrived on station. Honk.
He even murdered some guy that just arrived on station. Honk.
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Re: implant breaker + double implant too stronk
He probably deserved it.
And I saved the station! Minus the crew, anyway.
And I saved the station! Minus the crew, anyway.
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Re: implant breaker + double implant too stronk
You didn't even try stop the dominator, you were just roaming the corridors killing people - only Wil tried to stop it.
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Re: implant breaker + double implant too stronk
I was trying to suit up for it when the CMO and janitor started bothering me. Grabbed a jetpack and suit and stuff.lumipharon wrote:You didn't even try stop the dominator, you were just roaming the corridors killing people - only Wil tried to stop it.
- AnonymousNow
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Re: implant breaker + double implant too stronk
It's less the murder, and more the murder in a conversion gangmode, especially the murder when it just seems to be an attempt to take people out of the round and subvert their own gang.
I've seen an instance today where a gang has lost all their subtlety this way and been eliminated from a three-gang round by the resulting backlash, without the numbers to defend against that backlash. I, personally, was in a round where somebody did this to me (as in, I was the gang leader) on purpose before bouncing.
I've seen an instance today where a gang has lost all their subtlety this way and been eliminated from a three-gang round by the resulting backlash, without the numbers to defend against that backlash. I, personally, was in a round where somebody did this to me (as in, I was the gang leader) on purpose before bouncing.
Hornygranny wrote:It's not your codebase. It's our codebase. You can imply soft power as much as you want, but you don't have it. Division between the server and project is absolute. I'm not interested in reading dezzmont platitudes for the billionth time and won't be checking back in this thread.
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Re: implant breaker + double implant too stronk
> Help! Gangs are converting the station at a decent pace with some, but not much murderboning, and it ends up being gang v.s. gang until one team 'wins' and safely dominates, because there's no rational reason to risk domming when you can only dom twice, and if you don't have solid control you're just marking yourself for death, especially if sec is still in play. Nerf conversion so they can't convert other gangsters/implanted folks as quickly!
> Suddenly people are wondering why more gangsters are murderboning instead of converting when conversion isn't as effective, relies solely on gang leaders (i.e. you can't distribute single-use implant breakers to your minions in the field to any effect), AND they're more expensive than before so they eat up your supply of influence very damn fast, whilst loyalty implants are now more effective than the gang ones, despite Ikkarus trying to avoid that entire situation from the start. Loyalty implants come in boxes with 4 implants apiece, cost one to deconvert (which is all that matters now because regardless if they have an implant or not, gangs have to expend a pen charge on them), AND are relatively cheap in cargo. Then the gangs have to compete with the other gang killing/snatching recruits. OF COURSE IT'S A BLOODBATH
> Here's an idea, let's legislate against murderboning in a gamemode that hands you a bunch of murderboning tools unless explicitly ordered by your boss!
It's now infinitely more effective to convert 10-15 people earlygame pre-mass conversions, have a core competent group of 4-5 folks with the rest spraying or acting in a support role, and just kill the rest with uzis, rather than trying to keep people in the round, due to gank deconversions being frequent on the part of sec/cargo, and the other gangs. I told you this would happen.
Gamemode is turning into a trainwreck. Ikkarus is, as predicted, the only one that can be trusted to actually refine it properly.
> Suddenly people are wondering why more gangsters are murderboning instead of converting when conversion isn't as effective, relies solely on gang leaders (i.e. you can't distribute single-use implant breakers to your minions in the field to any effect), AND they're more expensive than before so they eat up your supply of influence very damn fast, whilst loyalty implants are now more effective than the gang ones, despite Ikkarus trying to avoid that entire situation from the start. Loyalty implants come in boxes with 4 implants apiece, cost one to deconvert (which is all that matters now because regardless if they have an implant or not, gangs have to expend a pen charge on them), AND are relatively cheap in cargo. Then the gangs have to compete with the other gang killing/snatching recruits. OF COURSE IT'S A BLOODBATH
> Here's an idea, let's legislate against murderboning in a gamemode that hands you a bunch of murderboning tools unless explicitly ordered by your boss!
It's now infinitely more effective to convert 10-15 people earlygame pre-mass conversions, have a core competent group of 4-5 folks with the rest spraying or acting in a support role, and just kill the rest with uzis, rather than trying to keep people in the round, due to gank deconversions being frequent on the part of sec/cargo, and the other gangs. I told you this would happen.
Gamemode is turning into a trainwreck. Ikkarus is, as predicted, the only one that can be trusted to actually refine it properly.
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Re: implant breaker + double implant too stronk
You have no-one but yourself to blame, Amelius, with slip + Gang implanter.
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Re: implant breaker + double implant too stronk
But the implant change isnt even on server silly. At least actually play the change before declaring it a trainwreck.
I also talked to Ikarrus before I even made the PR. I also edited the PR to exactly what Ikarrus suggested when he commented.
I really dont appreciate multiple paragraphs about how I've ruined another coders work, especially when its written as if you've actually played it, before anyone has ever actually touched it.
I also talked to Ikarrus before I even made the PR. I also edited the PR to exactly what Ikarrus suggested when he commented.
I really dont appreciate multiple paragraphs about how I've ruined another coders work, especially when its written as if you've actually played it, before anyone has ever actually touched it.
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Re: implant breaker + double implant too stronk
Also honestly people get way too upset these days about being removed from the round.
Have we forgotten the days of parapen c4? Of welding tank gibbings? Parasting?
People are too spoilt with how HARD it is to remove a person from the game permanently, from upgraded cloners, defibs, drones, posibrains, golems, sentience potions etc etc.
If people aren't getting removed from the roun then things aren't really progressing.
To me, this is ony an issue if people are explicitly murderboning when they are able to convert (revhead axing unimplaned people instead of flashing etc).
Have we forgotten the days of parapen c4? Of welding tank gibbings? Parasting?
People are too spoilt with how HARD it is to remove a person from the game permanently, from upgraded cloners, defibs, drones, posibrains, golems, sentience potions etc etc.
If people aren't getting removed from the roun then things aren't really progressing.
To me, this is ony an issue if people are explicitly murderboning when they are able to convert (revhead axing unimplaned people instead of flashing etc).
- AnonymousNow
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Re: implant breaker + double implant too stronk
This is essentially what is being discussed.lumipharon wrote: To me, this is ony an issue if people are explicitly murderboning when they are able to convert (revhead axing unimplaned people instead of flashing etc).
Hornygranny wrote:It's not your codebase. It's our codebase. You can imply soft power as much as you want, but you don't have it. Division between the server and project is absolute. I'm not interested in reading dezzmont platitudes for the billionth time and won't be checking back in this thread.
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Re: implant breaker + double implant too stronk
I would be in support to just make roundstart security and the captain not convertable to gangsters, implant breakers or not.
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Re: implant breaker + double implant too stronk
security being hopeless during gang actually kind of makes sense if it was ikarrus' intention to enable gangs quickly swallowing up sec and leaving them alive rather than have sec stomp out or get caught in bitter protracted fights that ends in stalemates. It's almost preferable to have easy sec conversions if you're not the type to get overly attached to whether sec wins or not, if gangs prefer to convert you it's a minute or less out of the fun and then you're back in.
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Re: implant breaker + double implant too stronk
The issue isn't sec being able to win or not (they usually don't), it's the fact that the first gang to convert sec wins 99% of the time.
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Re: implant breaker + double implant too stronk
I'd say 100% of the time. Especially with auto rifles being in, gangs just snowballed so hard.
I do think that breakers should still cost ten points though, especially since they don't convert any more, removing implants combined with having to use a pen on them is enough of a nerf I think.
I do think that breakers should still cost ten points though, especially since they don't convert any more, removing implants combined with having to use a pen on them is enough of a nerf I think.
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- Steelpoint
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Re: implant breaker + double implant too stronk
>auto rifles.
But what everyone is saying is true, the gang to convert security is also usually the gang that wins.
Not only do you get most of the security team under you control (who I would wager are going to be slightly more competent at combat than the average crew member) but they have access to a wide array of weapons and tools AND they have a very good defensive location known as the brig that can be used as a base.
Good luck storming the birg to destroy the dominator.
I still think Sec and the Captain should be immune to conversion, thematicly I dislike it, realisticly its bullshit and balance wise it's nearly a 'I win' button for the gang that does it first.
But what everyone is saying is true, the gang to convert security is also usually the gang that wins.
Not only do you get most of the security team under you control (who I would wager are going to be slightly more competent at combat than the average crew member) but they have access to a wide array of weapons and tools AND they have a very good defensive location known as the brig that can be used as a base.
Good luck storming the birg to destroy the dominator.
I still think Sec and the Captain should be immune to conversion, thematicly I dislike it, realisticly its bullshit and balance wise it's nearly a 'I win' button for the gang that does it first.
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Re: implant breaker + double implant too stronk
nah sec needs to be able to be converted. The way it was before was straight up memey, but now it's far far better than what it was before.
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