higgins, forceborging and dick in ooc

[allura]

Your byond account: allura
Your character name: Dolores Haze
Their character name: dont remember
Their byond account(optional, but useful if you can provide it): Higgins
Server and time: Artyom, maybe like 5-6 am
Logs and/or screenshots: no
Description of what happened: im the rd and im assigned as a traitor. there is only and AI, a chemist, and me online. i killed the chemist and then higgins joins the game. he is an assistant. he comes to chemistry and manages to subdue me after an extended fight. i request i be permad and he tells me im getting force borged. i ahelp and neerti says unless security is using it as an alternative to perma, it is against the rules. jay antonov joins the game. i try to imply that forceborging is bannable in ic without breaking immersions. i sort of fail. i think higgins ahelps it and an admins makes a server message saying "You can hear the sound of the world's smallest violin being played." jay antonov comes to me an higgins and wants to watch me being forceborged. i ic in ooc (theres no justification for this it was an accident so ban me if you need to) and kinglouis reminds me that security can borg me as an alternative to perma. higgins is an assistant. higgins makes fun of me a bit in ooc and etc. i quit
Why they should be banned: breaking rules and being a general douche. this is after i went out of my way to delete my Clare Quilty character at kinglouis's suggestion since i was getting metagrudged by shantae. so im subject to people breaking rules twice to be a dick to me and its my fault apparently.

[KingLouisXIV]

Hi, I was the AI this round, U.R.I.Z.E.N. I didn't hands-on help Allura this round, Neerti did, but I was able to sit in as candidate and watch the ahelps go down.

Here's the logs pulled from last night regarding the ahelp:

Spoiler:

[03:07:54]ADMIN: HELP: Allura/(Dolores Haze): can force borging please fucking become against the rules PLEASE - heard by 2 non-AFK admins who have +BAN.
[03:08:07]ADMIN: PM: Neerti/(Andrew Wood)->Allura/(Dolores Haze): It is if it was FNR
[03:08:24]ADMIN: PM: Neerti/(Andrew Wood)->Allura/(Dolores Haze): If sec's doing it as an alternative to perma it's valid.
[03:08:26]ADMIN: PM: Allura/(Dolores Haze)->Neerti/(Andrew Wood): ok well erik is force borging me Erik Highlands says, "I'm gonna force borg ya."
[03:08:35]ADMIN: PM: Allura/(Dolores Haze)->Neerti/(Andrew Wood): he can perma me
[03:08:41]ADMIN: PM: Allura/(Dolores Haze)->Neerti/(Andrew Wood): in fact i asked to be perma'd

i ahelp and neerti says unless security is using it as an alternative to perma,

I understand where you picked this up, but I said later in deadchat that you misunderstood his sentence completely.

Spoiler:

[03:12:58]OOC: Dolores Haze/Allura : ALRIGHT EVERYONE, I QUIT SS13
[03:13:00]OOC: Dolores Haze/Allura : IT WAS A GOOD RUN
[03:13:06]OOC: Dolores Haze/Allura : BUT I'M DONE
[03:13:30]OOC: Dolores Haze/Allura : Admins are letting me get force-borged even though it's against the rules. And they made fun of me for adminhelping it.
[03:13:38]OOC: Dolores Haze/Allura : wait, that's IC IN OOC
[03:13:48]OOC: U.R.I.Z.E.N./KingLouisXIV : Nobody is making fun of you, that's IC in OOC, and it's not against the rules
[03:13:49]OOC: Dolores Haze/Allura : I asked neerti if it was against the rules, he said yes
[03:14:08]SAY: Dolores Haze/Allura : he said it's okay if there's no alternative
[03:14:12]SAY: Dolores Haze/Allura : whoops wrong chat
[03:14:19]OOC: Dolores Haze/Allura : he said it's okay if there's no alternative
[03:14:26]OOC: Dolores Haze/Allura : but perma is perfectly fine
[03:14:28]OOC: U.R.I.Z.E.N./KingLouisXIV : He said it's okay -as an alternative-
[03:15:03]OOC: Dolores Haze/Allura : welp, if it's not against the rules, then jobs over im done i quit

Erik said more or less, "I'm gonna force borg you." which is completely understandable since there were a total of 4 people on staff, one of which were you and one of which you killed and no security to watch after you in the permabrig. If you didn't want to be borged, which you didn't, you have the choice of ghosting out of your body, which you did. At this point it was either take the borging or you're out of the round anyway.

Spoiler:

[03:10:04]SAY: Dolores Haze/Allura : You'll get banned from the "universe"
[03:10:38]SAY: Dolores Haze/Allura : Go ahead and "pray" to the "gods" of the "universe" and ask.

You did IC in OOC, but I saw no proper justification to instaban you for that since you already seemed upset and the only people that read it literally were involved or watching these events take place. There wasn't any negative to be had to say, the clown traitor bursting into robotics realizing his traitor buddy was about to get borged or killed, for instance. I do want to remind you though that I'm generous and still just a candidate; Don't rely on the kindness of myself or other admins about IC in OOC again.

I do not think a ban on Higgins is justified because he acted within the bounds of the rules. You were a traitor, he subdued you (mostly) non-harmfully with the assistance of an AI (me, who kept reminding the dork that he shouldn't be shooting you with a shotgun and when did he even get I literally didn't see it on him) and instead of shoving you into perma to rot, he wanted to actually bring you back into the round as a cyborg. This to me is a paragon of kindness for traitors. People can be dicks all they want to confirmed antags outside of the usual creeper/rape rules, just as antags can be dicks to everybody else. You're caught, your alternatives are death, imprisonment without hope of freedom, or borging. I'm not you, but again, I'd take the last one every single time.


As for the metaharassment thing between you and Notaspider, the issue is completely unrelated to this ban request in particular. Do what we discussed in my PM's to you and make another thread about it if it continues.

[allura]

when i reread neerti's sentence, i believe what he was conveying was that it's okay to forceborg as an alternative to perma AND it's security.
otherwise, how would it be against the rules at all? higgins was playing as an assistant who was trying to forceborg me, and neerti said security can do it. if anyone can forceborg then why would it be a rule at all.

[KingLouisXIV]

when i reread neerti's sentence, i believe what he was conveying was that it's okay to forceborg as an alternative to perma AND it's security.
otherwise, how would it be against the rules at all? higgins was playing as an assistant who was trying to forceborg me, and neerti said security can do it. if anyone can forceborg then why would it be a rule at all.

Forceful Borging

1. If you're forcefully borged for breaking the law as an alternative to being executed, don't turn around and arrest the people who borged you for "harming" your human body.
2. If you're forcefully borged for breaking in somewhere and assaulting someone or something similar, the above applies.
3. If it was randomly done and you didn't deserve to be forcefully borged, adminhelp it and get the admins to look into it. Immediately arresting someone who's keeping you in the round is shitty.

There was no security on the station. There was nobody besides you as RD, me as AI, a Chemist you killed, an Assistant and a Bartender. No security, no Captain, and the only chain of command was a traitor to the station. In this situation, it's fair to say that trying to lawyer out a ban by saying "But he wasn't security" is pretty far flung.

You either died and got ejected from the round, or were borged and kept in the round. It wasn't randomly done, you had an esword and slashed a dude to bits with it. You kept it and tried to kill Erik with it.

Again, cyborgititilization is an ALTERNATIVE TO PERMABRIG/EXECUTION. The latter two are literally on the same "tier" of punishment in the eyes of the rules, with the exception that execution is meant to be exclusive only with the Captain's blessing.

otherwise, how would it be against the rules at all?

It's only a rule not to be done randomly. You can't take Roboticist, stun+cable a random guy in the hall and drag him to your den to be borged. You can however force borg greytiding shitcunts 'repeat offenders' who repeatedly break in 'enthusiastically volunteer' to the Robotics Lab, and you can force that on a confirmed traitor/changeling as an alternative if Security or heads are not present, or if you are Security/Head who want it done.

Seriously, if you didn't want to be borged just ghost.

[Pandarsenic]

If the only head is a traitor and there's no sec, this is what's known as a breakdown of the command structure. At this point, the remaining crew is able to enact justice upon known murderers or attempted murderers pretty much however they like simply because they don't have (presumably) the IC authority or responsibility nor the OoC obligation to become or make a command/security team to hand you over to.

[Higgin]

As far as I've been aware in my time playing this game, force-borging hasn't been against the rules.

The admin ruling at the time agreed; and whether or not what Neerti said in the past disagreed was debatable between KingLouis's account and your own.

I'd like Neerti to chime in with what he remembers on the topic, but looking through the OOC rules verbatim there is nothing against force-borging as a punishment.

Furthermore, in Space Law,

Capital Crimes

These crimes can result in Execution, Permanent Prison Time, Permanent Labor Camp Time, or Cyborgization.
Only the Captain, HoS, and Warden can authorize a Permanent Sentence.
Only the Captain can authorize an Execution or Forced Cyborgization.

I didn't have any of those ranks and only gained them by giving myself the authority. There was no captain and no security force, so I became and made myself the ad hoc captain to authorize a punishment that would,
1) solve the problem of you being a dangerous little spud
2) comply with the AI's laws
3) keep you in the round and not be dickish or inordinate.

I went with cyborgization because being a cyborg is a lot more active than being shifted into perma. You started into vaguely threatening me with the wrath of the "gods" if I did make you a cyborg, which I view as entirely wrong for you to have done on the basis of Space Law and the rules verbatim.
HOWEVER.
Whether or not that's on you for your understanding of the rules is up to whatever ruling came down by Neerti - if Neerti did say something that could be reasonably interpreted "okay, no force-borging. not cool" then I'd be a lot more sympathetic to this issue and concerned about working it out with you.

Otherwise? You were captured and free, at that point, to ghost and leave from the round, even if I did cyborg you. Nobody was keeping you there and nobody was going to note or bwoink you for departing if you didn't want to be a cyborg; and cyborgification you was how I chose to approach the issue because there were so few security to watch over you and there was no reason to totally remove you from the round in perma.

Simply not wanting to be a cyborg isn't justification enough, either.

Antags get rule 1 immunity to an extent. They're also not protected by it unless, in the process of their getting shafted, they are meta- or power-gamed in an uncool fashion. If the HoS is off gibbing prisoners, that's a problem but one more likely to be handled in-round with AI and security repercussions.
If he's doing it every round, he's probably doing it to powergame changelings during traitor-chan and should be swatted with great, thorough zest.
I digress. What I did to you wasn't outside the written bounds and admin-agreed bounds. I didn't even forceborg you, actually - I threw you in the morgue on a bed, handcuffed, and left after you'd ghosted.


AS FOR ME BEING AN ASSISTANT:
Yeah. I was an assistant who became security to stop you and the captain to keep the shift going. Contrary to Bay and its skillsets, the role a player takes at roundstart does not predicate what bounds they're in - the role they assume, and how it's recognized in-game by other players, is much more important because there is no base distinction between a security officer, an assistant, and the captain - they can all ID traitors and do things respective to their personal ability to play the game. I assumed the role of security and stuck to it instead of pitching you out an airlock, and saying I was "trying to forceborg you" is reprehensibly disregarding everything you did to deserve getting treated as a traitor.

As for me being a general douche:
No, I'm not. It's unfortunate that you feel that way, but I am not in the wrong here, nor did I intend any dickery unto you. You misunderstood the rules based on a miscommunication and failure to check on Space Law and the listed rules (Occam's Razor applies to these things.) You got mad in OOC and rage-quit for not getting your own way with your handling. Understand that when a person who's just robusted one person and tried to robust you says, "I'd prefer the Hilton suite, please," they don't get it.

[allura]

i'm entirely understanding of why i'm wrong at this point and i view myself as an idiot.
honestly, this wouldnt have been an issue if i hadnt been patronized. as opposed to kinglouis, you, or neerti trying to work anything out, i was made fun of (the violin thing) and you were, in my opinion, being rather rude in ooc and were pretty clearly amused that i was upset and expressed it. would i like to put this behind me and play tg more? yes. will i? no, because i know that if i come back then i'll just be proving you right and i'll be more of an idiot than i am.

the biggest thing im upset about is that several times over this past week people have broken rules just to annoy me and received no punishment, and i was afraid this was another occasion.
im sorry for being annoying.

[allura]

alright i'm over it

[Pandarsenic]

Yeah, if no more needs to be said about this I'll lock and archive tomorrow.

[Neerti]

I said that forceborging FNR is bannable. I also said that it not bannable if you're being forceborged as an alternative to permabrig/execution/being validkilled, which was what was happening to you, so it was basically valid. A little later you IC in OOC'd and ragequitted over being borged when you killed several people.