Space Law

Post by **Thunder11** » Sat Feb 27, 2016 4:25 pm #157661

Any reason why this was removed? There was already a disclaimer on it saying it wasn't required to follow and only a suggestion, but it was a good guideline to how long to brig people for.

EDIT: Poll added

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Feb 27, 2016 4:27 pm #157663

I just recently noticed that Hornygranny has utterly removed the entire 'Space Law' page on the /tg/wiki.

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Space_Law

The only given reason is, in the changelog..

"as space law is merely roleplay and not "canon" it doesn't need a wiki page"

I disagree with this but I want to see what your opinions on this subject matter is before I spout off.

(Also one knockoff effect of this is that now it is NOT a crime to break into places, or executions by officers are valid under any circumstance so long as its in moderation)

GeeElAge · Post by **GeeElAge** » Sat Feb 27, 2016 4:27 pm #157664

There is no such thing as crime, only valid and not-valid.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Feb 27, 2016 4:36 pm #157667

Ok I want to list my biggest grievance with this removal.

It's a massive 'fuck you' to new security players. The first thing a new security player is going to do is go over to the wiki to see what the expectations of security are. While the security guides give some information on basic kits and how to deal with antags, it gives NO information on standard run of the mill operations and how to approach dealing with the crap the crew pull every round, from B&E to theft.

The guides only tell you to read on space law, which is now gone.

Every SS13 server in exsistance has their own functional set of space law. From Baystation, Goonstation, vgstation to fucking Vorestation. Why are we the exception? What is HG's real reasoning for just silently removing Space Law? Was he hoping no one would notice something being removed that people use every day for reference?

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Sat Feb 27, 2016 4:56 pm #157669

Awesome, now everything can be a capital crime. Perma everyone.

Reece · Post by **Reece** » Sat Feb 27, 2016 4:56 pm #157670

The fuck. That's insane, spess law is not roleplay it's the in game way of smacking shittlers. You rob a load of stuff you get brig'd for it.

Super Aggro Crag · Sat Feb 27, 2016 5:01 pm

re-add space law.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Sat Feb 27, 2016 5:08 pm #157672

Super Aggro Crag wrote:re-add space law.

Okay, done.

Edit: Can anyone remember what exactly the vote from 2011 actually was about?
Was it about whether space law was an ic suggestion or not, or was it vote on whether admins should enforce brig times to the minute?
Because there's a big difference between the two.

Also, seeing as its been five years since that vote maybe its time it should be revoted for?

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Sat Feb 27, 2016 5:23 pm #157677

Insread of having an edit war, grangran, just lock the page to admins

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:34 pm #157686

>1st and 4th posts itt

I expected better strawmen

To expand on that, I will ban anyone 'executing in moderation' or putting people in perma for every crime because >no space law. Security operate as they did before, regardless of what HG does or the content of a wiki page. Security has the greatest amount of freedom since SoS and they have the responsibility to not act like shit in some petty attempt to protest something outside the game.

FantasticFwoosh · Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:56 pm

A true and robust sec officer memorises, even vaguely every sentence of space law, and the common guidelines if nothing else on how serious a crime can be. Here is how i remember it

Shittery/memes/minor B&A/obstruction to tier 2 crimes/minor refusal of arrest (tier 1) - Depends on time took to restrain, 1 min or a instant release after a rudimentary search for (separate) good reason, just leaving them in a public place for humiliation still tied up in zipties is often enough and serves as bait for other antags, drop a comment on record at most.

Actual crime/Minor assault on others or person that you can restrain/B&A to mid level places/minor kidnap/minor theft/harmful greytiding/obstructing real serious crime (tier 2) - Drag to brig, give em 3 at max, deduct time to arrest, don't bother with cuffs and use zipties if you can in order to keep down nessecary beatings and avoid shitcurity claims to sue from hounding lawyers. Strip and search as regular, apply pepperspray if you can over baton in order to ensure personal safety and no reversals.

Etc etc. more serious stuff goes without saying on protocol, but low lying stuff like this is what new players really need to get to grips with.

Tsaricide · Post by **Tsaricide** » Sat Feb 27, 2016 7:03 pm #157691

The space law page was a good guideling for sec players to follow, removing it is just ???

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Sat Feb 27, 2016 7:09 pm #157692

imblyings wrote:>1st and 4th posts itt

I expected better strawmen

To expand on that, I will ban anyone 'executing in moderation' or putting people in perma for every crime because >no space law. Security operate as they did before, regardless of what HG does or the content of a wiki page. Security has the greatest amount of freedom since SoS and they have the responsibility to not act like shit in some petty attempt to protest something outside the game.

They're about as good a strawmen as "Space Law is just fluff so doesn't need a wiki page... despite the ingame books pointing to that page".

I mean, was this discussed with anyone or is HG alone trying to cause as much damage as possible before losing headmin?

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Sat Feb 27, 2016 8:01 pm #157701

At any rate it's pointless because the Space Law page is mirrored on other wikis.

Sat Feb 27, 2016 8:24 pm

what the heck, gran gran?

ShadowDimentio · Sat Feb 27, 2016 8:38 pm

What a great admin

Post by **lumipharon** » Sat Feb 27, 2016 9:12 pm #157730

While following spacelaw to the letter is obviously retarded, what else are new sec players supposed to do to get started?
Without a reference point, unless you have someone helpful to tell you 'how things are done around here', you essentially just left to stab at the dark, both in terms of what's a crime, and what's a punishment.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sat Feb 27, 2016 9:16 pm #157732

What if security players had to follow Space Law to the letter?

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Sat Feb 27, 2016 9:16 pm #157733

Then it would be shit because all of the brig times on the wiki are WAY too long.

IcePacks · Post by **IcePacks** » Sat Feb 27, 2016 9:21 pm #157735

nobody ever actually enforced the finer points of space law anyways, nothing of value was lost

Malkevin wrote:Awesome, now everything can be a capital crime. Perma everyone.

go ahead

Post by **oranges** » Sat Feb 27, 2016 9:24 pm #157736

It was probably removed because you like to throw it around as if it was actual in game policy and law instead of a stupid RP page that literally has no basis in reality other than in your twisted fantasies where you are the headmin of the server and we all live in some kind of dystopian shithole.

It's guaranteed at some point you will show up to just about any ban request or appeal involving security to wave around parts of your space law in some kind of mad attempt to embed it into the fabric of the game.

based on the number of people who actually think they need to enforce it it's starting to work and that's bad because it's fucking shit.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Sat Feb 27, 2016 9:35 pm #157746

It's a guideline people follow, a guideline which is largely accepted, if someone gets banned because they're following that guideline why wouldn't I defend them?

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Sat Feb 27, 2016 9:39 pm #157750

Because your guidelines are shit and way too harsh.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Sat Feb 27, 2016 9:41 pm #157752

Zilenan91 wrote:Because your guidelines are shit and way too harsh.

Stop breaking windows

FantasticFwoosh · Sat Feb 27, 2016 9:42 pm

lumipharon wrote:While following spacelaw to the letter is obviously retarded, what else are new sec players supposed to do to get started?
Without a reference point, unless you have someone helpful to tell you 'how things are done around here', you essentially just left to stab at the dark, both in terms of what's a crime, and what's a punishment.

Since when was it retarded? The distinction is the same that can be made between AI laws and space laws.

People can slip on it but the guidelines are set. If you follow that set of laws to the exact specifications, it should by design be robustly idiot proof, and sec officers & superiors need to accomodate for changing circumstances. AI laws are questioned but are allowed non-the-less even though AI policy goes much deeper than the surface laws that are detailed (door policy particularly)

> The space law books are probably broken now as a result of HG interferance. THAT WAS the point of reference. Hence a spike of recent non-clued up sec heads on sybil from my own observation.

Not following the book and not taking the opportunity to throw the book to screw over criminal scum at every single opportunity and clause is a major part of security stripped away, instead we have illegal hang-man meatspike and greytide flash mobs which are in themselves unlawful because of a 'i dunno lol' attitude. It is skirting whole responsibilty for the purpose of pure unadulterated RP and IC circumstances to not read space law before or during a shift, even as a passing reference.

If i had the time, i would host a police academy (made more hilarious by the fact i am extremely unrobust with practical play vs robust knowledge) to teach the fundamentals of space law in a seperate server or a quiet extended round. And then order people with opposing opinions to take space law books fired out of a P-cannon to the face until they are rendered unconscious by justice or accept their wrongdoing, perhaps encouraging it as a form of dodgeball sport, only the pro-justice get to wear armour whilst the against team are naked in cuffs tied to chairs with blindfolds attached.

Whether or not i would be violating the space geneva convention in doing so is not of much concern.

Post by **lumipharon** » Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:02 pm #157757

Because AI laws must be followed without question.

Space law isn't binding - if it was I would brig people for assaulting an officer every time they slipped or pushed me, destruction of station property for breaking a window, for being in botany without proper access, for sabotage for hacking vendors, etc etc etc.

Obviously there are times where you WILL brig people for these things (when they're shitters), but just as obviously, it's extremely gay and shitty to do it ALL the time.

Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:10 pm

Just because something isn't used doesn't mean we should get rid of it

lumipharon wrote:it's extremely gay

we're still using this as a pejorative in 2016?

Post by **lumipharon** » Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:11 pm #157762

I'm actively arguing against removing it.
I am also arguing that blindly following it to the letter is exceedingly homoerotic.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:13 pm #157765

The funny thing about the detractors of space law is that if they want to change some element of it they CAN, by following the exact same procedure I did (propose changes on a forum poll, if it passes with a two thirds majority then the change can be implemented into space law)
But I guess that would require actual effort.

Fakeedit: And for those that don't know, I didn't create space law - the opening paragraph, Interpretation of the Law, majority of the crimes and crime structure itself (including the weird system that you can't stack up multiples of the same crime but can add up multiple different crimes)
What I did do was add a couple of crimes (different levels of trespass, B&E, theft; and the weapons possession offences, and the rioting and mutiny crimes), the brig procedure SOPs (because knowing how to process criminals is an important skill new sec players need to learn and fast), use of deadly force (which is basically a write up of the agreed sec policy before we had an actual official one in the rules), and thing about lawyers being people you don't have to listen to (because lawyers were never added as criminal lawyers (as confirmed by muskets, who was the one that added them) and were always 9/10 played by mouth breathers)

Now if I'd wrote space law from scratch it would be a whole lot different.

IcePacks · Post by **IcePacks** » Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:16 pm #157766

nobody ever followed it to the letter

when was the last time you saw a drug bust

it's roleplay guidelines on a server where roleplay has all but died out

handier guidelines for the modern /tg/ player would be two minutes for minor shit, five for major shit, such and soforth

if you suddenly start stressin' and sweatin' over OH MY GOD WHAT IS THIS CRIME ACTUALLY PUNISHABLE FOR?!!!?!?! just punish it according to how much min-maxing was disrupted

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:24 pm #157771

It's just an introduction into the sort of things security might reasonably care about, and the sort of times that are reasonable (5-10 minutes, no more, or perma). Space Law is largely just a way to contain people that are purposefully annoying other people for no particular reason. If you're following it to the letter, things get weird, and it can definitely be toed around (which lawyers can do on higher RP servers). However, removing it gets rid of a whole chunk of motivations for security. Even if it is a roleplay based phenomenon, that's not a bad thing. Isn't the complaint more that security doesn't roleplay than that they do? Without roleplay, there's no reason to bother with perma, brig times, or the gulag. It's just a set of "kill or don't kill" decisions that detract from the quality of everyone's experience.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:24 pm #157790

IcePacks wrote:nobody ever followed it to the letter

when was the last time you saw a drug bust

it's roleplay guidelines on a server where roleplay has all but died out

handier guidelines for the modern /tg/ player would be two minutes for minor shit, five for major shit, such and soforth

if you suddenly start stressin' and sweatin' over OH MY GOD WHAT IS THIS CRIME ACTUALLY PUNISHABLE FOR?!!!?!?! just punish it according to how much min-maxing was disrupted

Which would pretty be what space law would be if I wrote it from scratch

Also drug busts don't happen because the only people that bother with le drug meme are people that are permitted to grow and handle drugs.

Reece · Post by **Reece** » Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:26 pm #157794

It might be different if drugs did something actually useful, or had an actual effect long term. As it is they just decrease stun, or give tiny boring boosts. They're rather pointless.

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:44 pm #157798

The biggest problem with a drugs bust is that you can't feasibly remove the source of the drugs (hydroponics/chem) without negatively affecting way too much, so all you end up doing is confiscating functionally infinite amounts of the same material. It doesn't cost anything to make, so it's never going to be effective to arrest over. Like nudity, it's mostly just something extra to slap someone with if they're causing other problems.

Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:48 pm

Reece wrote:It might be different if drugs did something actually useful, or had an actual effect long term. As it is they just decrease stun, or give tiny boring boosts. They're rather pointless.

Uh antistuns are some of the most powerful things in the game

Bob Dobbington · Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:59 pm

Reece wrote:It might be different if drugs did something actually useful, or had an actual effect long term. As it is they just decrease stun, or give tiny boring boosts. They're rather pointless.

If we're taking "drugs" to include the hallucinogenic plants in Botany, Ambrosia Deus is one of the best healing items in the game in addition to being le weed memer plant. I think that's the primary reason you don't see drug busts anymore, drugs have become the most useful thing Botany can make for the station.

Reece · Post by **Reece** » Sun Feb 28, 2016 1:17 am #157828

Shaps wrote:
Reece wrote:It might be different if drugs did something actually useful, or had an actual effect long term. As it is they just decrease stun, or give tiny boring boosts. They're rather pointless.
Uh antistuns are some of the most powerful things in the game

But they don't really anti stun, they just reduce the stun time, most security officers taser you, then beat the shit out of you with the baton before they cuff you. When I've taken what the chemist gave me for 'stun protection' all I got was shot again and smashed around the place by a pissed off sec officer.

Admittedly I'm about as robust as Runtime and routinely get smashed around the place by everyone so...
Drugs just seem really lackluster.

TechnoAlchemist · Sun Feb 28, 2016 1:27 am

Space law is a good way to learn sec, after awhile you learn to just not arrest for somethings that are in space law.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Sun Feb 28, 2016 1:49 am #157838

Stun reducing drugs are a good way to make an officer go "oh shit, adrenals - KILL KILL!" to be honest.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Feb 28, 2016 5:53 am #157916

Could HG explain here on the forums as to why he feels it's nessecary to do what no other server has done an gut space law for no good reason?

Hell Im pretty sure he has a grudge against security, considering his sec nerf code changes.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Sun Feb 28, 2016 6:12 am #157924

i have plans to code space law in as an ingame thing for the purposes of ease of access for brig timers(eg. click Assault, automatically enters in the sentence) and better warden crime handlingalong with allowing the captain to set Space Law

also gonna add money printers

goofsec 2k16

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sun Feb 28, 2016 6:27 am #157928

iamgoofball wrote:i have plans to code space law in as an ingame thing for the purposes of ease of access for brig timers(eg. click Assault, automatically enters in the sentence) and better warden crime handlingalong with allowing the captain to set Space Law

also gonna add money printers

goofsec 2k16

That actually might not be the worst idea you've had.

ShadowDimentio · Sun Feb 28, 2016 6:30 am

Saegrimr wrote:That actually might not be the worst idea you've had.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Sun Feb 28, 2016 6:58 am #157931

I like Space Law but all the brig timers for everything are way too high for such minor crimes.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Feb 28, 2016 10:01 am #157974

This scenario does not exactly instill confidence in HG's re-election campaign.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Sun Feb 28, 2016 10:18 am #157975

iamgoofball wrote:i have plans to code space law in as an ingame thing for the purposes of ease of access for brig timers(eg. click Assault, automatically enters in the sentence) and better warden crime handlingalong with allowing the captain to set Space Law

also gonna add money printers

goofsec 2k16

I'd like to help you design that, pm me or hit me up on steam or something?
I have an idea of what the interface could look like

Hornygranny · Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:49 am

"For arrested players, timed sentences up to a total of 10 minutes, buckle-cuffing, and stripping, are considered IC issues and are not actionable by admins. Brig sentences totaling more than 10 minutes can be adminhelped, as can be gulag or perma sentences or a pattern of illegitimate punishment."

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Sun Feb 28, 2016 12:18 pm #158001

Fine, I'll correct myself

Malkevin wrote:Awesome, now everything can be a major crime. Ten minutes for everyone.

newfren · Post by **newfren** » Sun Feb 28, 2016 1:28 pm #158012

Malkevin wrote:Fine, I'll correct myself
Malkevin wrote:Awesome, now everything can be a major crime. Ten minutes for everyone.

hey malk i found the other rule that stops that one from being a problem
1. Don't be a dick.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Feb 28, 2016 1:52 pm #158016

Oh please, if we liberally banned for rule 1 violations then security would be non-exsistant and antagonists would do nothing hostile.

There's a difference between doing your job and going over the top.

Should Space Law be removed from the wiki?