Test 3: No Secborgs

[Hornygranny]

what it says on the tin, one week

[Anonmare]

I disagree with this tbh

• Here's a list of things a Security Cyborgs can't do;-
• Can't use flashbangs (and are dangerously weak to flashes)
• Can't use lethals (without being emagged/illegal module'd and even then they have hard-wired restrictions in place preventing them from using them most of the time)
• Can't repair itself (sans a passive module that takes 5 minutes to repair minor damage)
• Can be subverted/destroyed remotely.
• Don't have default access to the security channel which means their reaction to threats is determined by the response time of the AI informing them, if it does decide to inform them.
• Only have a disabler as a ranged non-lethal option which requires several hits to score a stun while a taser is a one-hit stun.

I'd prefer to face a secborg than a regular officer as a traitor tbh. Officers can disabler spam as much as a borg can and stun baton charge is basically meaningless with one hit being game over, easy access to chargers and EMPs only taking away 25% charge from a baton. Apart from innate space-worthiness and unstrippable equipment/all-access, a secborg is not that much tougher than a sec officer, it just needs a different angle to come at from to deal with.


With how cheap EMPs are for traitors now, they're even more of a non-issue.

[Reece]

Yah, if they're being iced because players find them too difficult to get around then the solution should be to laugh at the idiots who can't change up their thinking from attacking a human.

[Zilenan91]

- All of them
- Nobody but security or someone with secgear
- Literally unstoppable because they have infinite lasers, disablers, can't be disarmed by regular crew, and never get slowed with damage. The things that kill them already kill normal antagonists anyways so you can't even make the argument of them getting flashed or flashbanged.
- Absolutely not. They only exist to ruin things and make the round worse by either killing all the antagonists or being the grief enabler of shitty silicon players.

- They tend to side with security, arresting all the antagonists, then look away and play dumb while they get beat to death in the back room. When not doing that, they're shitting all over non-human players just because they can and making rounds terrible.

[Ricotez]

I'm curious to see how this will play out, maybe it'll make standard borgs an alternative

[Saegrimr]

I'd rather just start handing out bans every time a borg ignores a law 2 from some guy he just arrested for smashing a window.

[Anonmare]

-All of them but that's the nature of the module, it's equivalent to arguing that sec offs make things difficult for the antagonists or that engineers cause trouble for a hull breach.
-Roboticists, RD, other Heads of Staff, Security, Scientists, shaft miners and the librarian (Laser pointers be robust).
-Strongly, they can't be disarmed and don't have external identifiers of being subverted ("subverted" security officers usually lack a loyalty implant).
-Not necessarily. Sheer volume of bodies can take them out as much as a security officer can be overwhelmed and can be worn down by attrition due to a lack of in-built self-repair capabilities.
-Subject to opinion. You can argue that the clown doesn't contribute to the round in a meaningful way but players will screech at you if you try to take the role away. Comes down to the player, like any non-essential role at the end of the day.

-Security is favoured as the trustworthy side due to them having plenty of non-harmful stun weaponry and an (in theory) legal system that prevents them from harmfully punishing criminals while most antagonists possess harmful-only weapons and no legal framework. It's natural sec-borgs will favour handing criminals to Security rather than the victims of a crime (due to assistant mob-justice being the kind to throw people in the xenobiology pens with hungry slimes).

I've said it before, take a harsher stance with shit silicon players like we did with security and things will improve. Saegrimr honestly has the right idea.

[Zilenan91]

Why not both. All the people that went secborg before are gonna go standard now and floor people forever with stunbaton

Also Anon if it has a huge impact in all modes and isn't fun because of it then it needs to be changed or removed. This is doing one of these things, it's intended function does not matter. I could make an instagib gun and give it to sec as standard issue for killing antagonists and it would serve its function but it would be shit and unfun.


Things will not improve if we take a hardsher stance because of how our admins work, their opinions will differ on whether something is valid or not and nothing will really be done as far as additional harshness.

[Reece]

- Nobody but security or someone with secgear
- Literally unstoppable because they have infinite lasers, disablers, can't be disarmed by regular crew, and never get slowed with damage. The things that kill them already kill normal antagonists anyways so you can't even make the argument of them getting flashed or flashbanged.
- Absolutely not. They only exist to ruin things and make the round worse by either killing all the antagonists or being the grief enabler of shitty silicon players.
- They tend to side with security, arresting all the antagonists, then look away and play dumb while they get beat to death in the back room. When not doing that, they're shitting all over non-human players just because they can and making rounds terrible.

- Or anyone with chem access, or anyone with an emag and R&D, or anyone with a flash, or anyone with wirecutters and an empty HOP line. If your defintion of literally unstoppable is 'cannot be beaten by some dick with a toolbox' then yes, they are unstoppable...oh no wait with a toolbox you can break into RD office and just nuke them all at once.
- So does security. They exist to stop you from being an antagonistic bastard, if you want to be a successful antagonist then try and act like it instead of just running through the halls loaded to the gills with chems and guns.
- They tend to arrest antags when told to or when the antags are being shitheads and harming people, they are in fact supposed to do that under those conditions. Except unlike the shitheels who play sec the sec borg doesn't stun you, cuff you and then strip search you because he can and then go 'lol valid' and bash your skull in. If we're talking things that ruin rounds for traitors then you may as well just remove security entirely and have the station be defended by spear weilding assistants. And if the borgs are letting you get killed then Ahelp if because they are breaking the rules; that's a problem with the players, not the borg itself.

[Anonmare]

I never said it wasn't fun, I like taking on the borg army to be honest but that's, like, my opinion man.

And the problem with different interpretations would be resolved if there was only one interpretation. Maybe we should stop letting individual admins make judgement calls and simply say "This is valid and this isn't. End of." It'd piss people with different interpretations off but taking a more focused stance would work out in the long run in my opinion.

Like whether or not an AI has the right to enforce restrictions on it's upload, or require entrants be escorted or not.

[Saegrimr]

>Threaten to ban more people

Saegrimr honestly has the right idea.

wew

[Luke Cox]

I also love how there's no poll attached to this one, because it's so obviously unpopular at this point and HG knows it

[newfren]

- Or anyone with chem access

Chemists cannot make emps without the assistance of mining (this never happens).

[dionysus24779]

Between Engieborg and Mediborg I play Secborg a lot and try to give my humble feedback on this.

Secborgs are fine as they are, hell maybe they could even use a small buff sometimes.

Borgs in general already have a wide variety of counters, flashes, EMP stuff (many flavours available to most antag roles), laser pointers, etc. And that stuff leaves a borg even more vulnerabe than a human since a borg is deafened, muted, blinded and paralysed during the effect. A human at least can still use its radio to send a last message out.

Also the Secborg's tools do drain quite a lot of power, especially the Stunbaton. These aren't nearly as infinite as some players believe and you can easily exhaust your energy if you aren't careful.

Secborgs, as all borgs, also cannot do anything outside of their designated role and the mere lack of hands is a much bigger restriction than you might think. I cannot even count the times where all I could do was rolling around and asking people to help me because I was useless and the most I could do was drag something. (common example scenario: human is in crit and cryo isn't available...)

Secborgs also have absolutely no tools to fight general monsters, even an engieborg can get out its welder and start hurting a juggernaut, but a secborg is compeltly useless. (that's why I would love to see a pure anti-mob weapon which is only supposed to be used against non-humans and for all I care can be hardcoded to not harm humans at all)

Also borgs in general also don't have easy access to healing, yes there's an upgrade for self repair now... which takes forever to even fix minor damage (still nice to have), engieborgs can repair other borgs quickly but require borgs to rely on an engieborg being available, also engieborgs can repair themselves again but it isn't instant as it used to be and takes a few seconds to apply (honestly a good compromise), the last option would be an upgraded recharge station... and to me it seems like the rechargers are often very low on the upgrade priority list and the only two chargers being upgraded are usually the one by the roboticists office, which are also the first ones to go if borgs are rogue.

Which brings me to another,rarely exploited, weakness... borgs have to recharge from time to time, on box (the "default") there're only a handful of rechargers on the station itself, they can be easily destroyed by two simple tools (screwdrive+crowbar) and even an engieborg cannot reassembe it. There're only a limited number of chargers available unless humans (not borgs) build more, which is very rarely done.

Get all the chargers (don't forget mining) and the borgs are on a timer.

As for the questions

What rounds or antagonists do security cyborgs cause problems for?

I guess regular traitors if they get discovered and they are hunted down... Nuke Ops can also run into a wall if a good secborg gets lucky or the Nuke Ops don't coordinate or neglect to bring any counter, though I've also seen it go the other way and see secborgs being easily disposed off or even emagged.

Otherwise it seems most antags can have an easy time dealing with a secborg, Wizards have Magic Missles and an EMP spell (iirc), Changelings have an EMP ability and natural weapons, Xenos can simply stun a borg making them completly defenseless, Blobs can damage a borg faster than they can even react, Cult+Rev+Gang have strength in numbers and can easily overwhelm a borg plus sabotage stuff like the chargers or have a converted Roboticist just waiting for a good opportunity.

On the other hand... a Secborg is utterly useless in catching a Wizard if that Wizard has Magic Missle or Blink (especially Blink), a Secborg with asimov has little reason to interfere with Gangs unless ordered or witnessing harm, and being Secborg when both Sec/Heads and the Crew are at each others throat isn't fun.

Who can take them down easily?

Anyone with a flash, laserpointer or flashbang. Taking on borgs does require a different approach to taking on a human, but that's the whole point and is still anything but impossible. Also anyone who has access to the console can literally blow them up with the press of a button.

How do they fare when working with antagonists against the crew (subversion or antagonist AI rather than role play as I doubt that is possible here)?

That depends mostly on the borg itself but also how fast the crew realizes its rogue and if the borg knows the crew knows. Sometimes you think nobody is suspecting a thing and the next second you've been flashed and smashed to pieces or get ioned to death. Plus it's easy to check and destroy/lockdown a rogue borg. And a secborg isn't even always the best option when being an antag, engieborgs can be incredibly deadly too and a Mediborg's acid at least used to be quite lethal. Even Janiborgs can be a nightmare to face if they're smart with their lube.


Are the tools to take them down required? Is it okay if those tools aren't always available or viable? Is it okay if the ability to get these tools, more specifically for antagonists, is a choice rather than given freely?

The tools for taking down a borg aren't only useful against a borg, flashes, EMPs, laserpointers and other stuff can be used against other beings as well, not as effective of course but that's more because borgs are especially weak to them and not because these tools are too weak or specialized... the obvious exception might be the Ion Rifle which however can be used to EMP other stuff as well.

And antags usually have easy access to some form of EMP and I think it should be a choice instead of a freeby. It's a tactical choice and not necessary at all. Plenty of antags succeed without taking any anti-silicon items.


Do they contribute to the round in a meaningful way? Do players contribute to the round in a meaningful way when they play as them?

I think so, secborgs are the best at stopping people from harming each other and resticting them if necessary, this is their niche and they're pretty good at it.

And they're still not a replacement for Security itself.


Do players who pick security cyborgs side often with security in the sense of playing a security officer in a different skin? I seem to only have memories of them doing as such, especially with the colour scheme and the title encouraging partnership and delivering every criminal to security.

Whenever I play Secborg... no, absolutely not. No matter what module I pick I do not consider myself part of that corresponding department, especially when I pick the sec module. I am part of the AI/Silicon "department". (though engieborgs and mediborgs obviously benefit from the cooperation)

This is also why I rarely hang around the brig or even bother to get a security channel key installed, because I don't even want to be "available" so that I'm ordered to pursue every little problem that doesn't even have any harm involved. And this is in no way meant as an insult to Security or something, but if someone breaks a window, breaks into somewhere or steals something... that's really not my problem as a secborg unless you make it so, which is why I avoid giving sec the chance when possible.

I mean I mostly hang around the bridge and have an eye on the crew monitor or roll around doing stuff or the AI. If I do get an order to arrest someone I do it of course, though I may let people go instantly because there was no harm involved and I did technically arrested them.

My secret to being a secborg is to be as lazy as possible, follow your silicon-laws, don't care about space law (but if you do brig someone be easy on the sentence unless permaing a murderer or whatever) and it's fine.

Also I've experienced TONS of rounds where the AI/Silicons and Security had a hostile relationship to each other. As soon as Sec starts executing prisoners or harming people the relationship sours. This is especially common in convert-type rounds, revolution, cult and gangs.

Secborgs are not a part of Sec, they're part of the Silicons and both factions can be at each others throat.

[Scott]

I'd rather just start handing out bans every time a borg ignores a law 2 from some guy he just arrested for smashing a window.

If you don't do this already then it's the admin team's fault the playerbase hates secborgs so much.

[Luke Cox]

(HG deleted my posts for calling him out on the lack of a poll for this obviously unpopular test, but I'll go ahead and less shitpost-y feedback)

Many servers have secborgs without any issues. Just like the AI, this isn't a mechanical issue, this is a policy one. Secborgs need to either be given a different default lawset to allow them to function as security or (and more preferably imo) enforce silicon policy with security borgs just like we would with the AI. This means that if a traitor who hasn't hurt anybody orders a borg to let them go, they have to let them go.


Saegrimr really does have the right idea

[Luke Cox]

Saegrmir does have the right idea. This is a policy issue above all. If a non-harmful traitor orders a secborg to release them or bust them out of prison, they have to do it

[Incomptinence]

Less borgs favouring security and more traitors being harmful. If you want the poor little antagonist to avoid asimov interference well you need to give them more non lethal weapons and objectives. For all the derision steal objectives got for being to easy they are something sec would care about and borgs would (or should) ignore. Like changelings at some points on top of being non human had guaranteed assassination objectives, whereas absorb originally could be achieved in say a disgusting self farm where a changeling eats (old) pod clones of himself or just genetics. The pod man example is something an AI literally PDA'd me about to say as long as I didn't harm humans we were cool.

[Saegrimr]

If you don't do this already then it's the admin team's fault the playerbase hates secborgs so much.

Everybody gets all pissy about it if I do it too much.
"Wow you're so harsh"
"How are they gonna learn if you don't let them mess up?"

[PKPenguin321]

Secborgs are consistently both the shittiest players and the shittiest round-enders. Oh, you can just flash them? Yeah, good luck approaching them with your melee ranged flash while they fire 10,000 disabler shots, with even a single one slowing you down more than an 80 year old with one leg. The only way to play around them is to get access to the robo console (which requires you to be/kill the HoP/captain/RD, which are high risk targets with lots of defense), get a specific long ranged EMP (only available to very specific antags/the highly guarded ion gun/getting uranium to chemistry (good luck)), or sneaking up on them when they trust you (the only time a flash would really work/when they trust you to change their cell or whatever and you deconstruct them, both of these scenarios are already very unlikely). There's also swarming them with raw numbers in things like rev and the rare coordinated gang, but having to go 8-to-1 to beat them just goes to show how poorly they were implemented. Flashbangs are also a thing, but are only really found within sec, and still require a bowman and glasses (both of which are contraband to non-sec members (except for standard sunglasses)) to use properly.
Not to mention, the second they get off of Asimov, you'd better have your ass ready for a full-on prodding. Anybody who says secborgs don't have lethals must be joking. They can pull you at top speed because they have no slowdown and can just chainstun/bash with their infinite charge batons.
If they get emagged, they become an infinite bastion of lasers and hellfire that, while fun to exploit as an antagonist, is admittedly absurdly powerful.

Tl;dr fuck secborgs

[TheNightingale]

The hardest counter to Secborgs - "Law 2, let me go".

[Incomptinence]

All the solo antags get the chance to access EMP unless we are counting blob who stops being people so I don't really get what you are going on about Penguin.

[leibniz]

I wouldn't miss the stun immune arrest machines if they were made to go away forever, but I think a fun thing to do would be giving every antag silicon a verb that allows module repicking once, then they would be able to pick secborgs, so it would still be in the game. (also this would make emagging broborgs useful)

[InsaneHyena]

Secborgs are shit. And I say this as a person who's played a secborg often.

1) A secborg is unstoppable. He can't be slipped, he can't be stunned, he can't be slowed. There are flashes that require you to get into melee range with a secborg. Good luck with that, because a secborg has a very powerful disabler. The only times you can use the flash are either when secborg is too dumb to use the disabler and tries to hit you with a stun baton (in that case, it comes down to who's faster and more accurate) or when secborg doesn't expect an attack. "But you unrobust scrub" - you say, - "There are numerous ways to counter a silicon without a flash". Yeah? Well, let's look. First, there are grenades - flashbangs that are only available to sec, and EMP grenades that need to be bought by tators. "Chemistry can make EMP easily, the recipe isn't that complicated" - yeah, it requires uranium. Good fucking luck getting it.
2) "Anyone with a toolbox can destroy a secborg, you only need to break into RD's office". Well, maybe it USED to be like this, I don't know, but it's just not the case. To lockdown or blow the borgs you need to have access for it. Also, locking a secborg with a console really won't help you when a validhunting secborg tracks you down with AI's help and disables you from across the hall.
3) "You can just law two them into letting you go". First - no secborg actually follows law 2. Ever. It NEVER happens. I adminhelp every time, every time I get an answer "I'll look into it", and by the time they look into it, I'm long in the brig, getting my face smashed in by a harmbaton. Second - captain validcops and valadins AI every fucking time an antag shows his face. The only times I DON'T see validcop/valadin uploaded every fucking time are traitor rounds, for some reason. The moment they no longer have to preserve human life, silicons gleefuly start murdering people left, right and center.
4) In my opinion, a silicon should never validhunt. and neither should AI. Validhunting is secborg's only purpose. Cyborg's job is to help the station, smashing faces with a harmbaton is security's job.

inb4 "git gud".

[Bluespace]

I've never seen the problem with sec borgs.
You can outrun them and flash them very very easily.
If you can stunprod an officer, you can flash a borg.
Infact, if you don't want to get up close, go get a laser pointer, they're basically tasers for borgs.



As a traitor, it's about twice as easy to kill a cyborg than a human, EMPs are dirt cheap and a stunned cyborg can't scream.

[TheWiznard]

double the drain on the cell for stunbatons and disablers

[MMMiracles]

or we can just remove the borg that exists solely to stop valids.

a competent borg player is a terrifying thing to combat. a competent sec borg is about as much threat as a mediocre syndieborg, even more so if it gets a VTEC or is emaggable (God forbid if it gets both).

This comes from a person who enjoys playing sec borg as expected. It's hilarious to watch a petty thief practically shit himself upon seeing a sec borg roll up only to ask him if he requires assistance in breaking in for his insulated gloves.

It sucks we can't nice things because the shit players ruin it for everyone else. Seeing how even after 'nerfs' and 'administration intervention (when's the last time you saw a sec borg actually follow a law 2 order from a non-harmful criminal?)', we still have the issue.

Seriously at this point just remove it seeing how apparently the player base as a majority can't be trusted not to valid at first chance.

[Wyzack]

Remove players 2016, they ruin everything they touch

[Saegrimr]

Remove players 2016, they ruin everything they touch

IM TRYING

[FantasticFwoosh]

Lowpop rounds suffer even more now due to lack of collaborative security numbers, often just leaving the warden or a a pair of security officers to fend for themselves covering a larger area than they can handle.

[Zilenan91]

It was already kinda like that anyways.

[Scott]

Also this nerfs silicon subversion tactics for traitors and traitor AIs.

[iamgoofball]

Lowpop rounds suffer even more now due to lack of collaborative security numbers, often just leaving the warden or a a pair of security officers to fend for themselves covering a larger area than they can handle.

start playing security then and encourage others to play security

recruit assistants into the security department

Also this nerfs silicon subversion tactics for traitors and traitor AIs.

try subverting engiborgs sometime, or just working with the AI on a good plasmaflood/murder spree

[PKPenguin321]

The hardest counter to Secborgs - "Law 2, let me go".

>your face when "le law 1 conflict XD"
>your face when there have been 30 threads on making Asimov more strict and they never follow through
If policy can't change then the code must.


>your face when even if we fixed Asimov policy there is still "not Asimov lmao valids beep boop"

>yfw no face

[tedward1337]

Now this is shitposting

[Scott]

Lowpop rounds suffer even more now due to lack of collaborative security numbers, often just leaving the warden or a a pair of security officers to fend for themselves covering a larger area than they can handle.

start playing security then and encourage others to play security

recruit assistants into the security department

Also this nerfs silicon subversion tactics for traitors and traitor AIs.

try subverting engiborgs sometime, or just working with the AI on a good plasmaflood/murder spree

Engiborg isn't made for combat. It's not a bad subversion target, but it's not a combat borg I can hack to be my personal bodyguard.

[Steelpoint]

I wonder what next weeks test will be.

[Scott]

No Admins?

[Redblaze3000]

Next week lets have no sec!

[Zilenan91]

That sounds really interesting and hilarious.

[ShadowDimentio]

I would actually like to see no sec tested, and not just because I hate securityTM

[Steelpoint]

Oh yeah that's going to end well, a sec removal test would need a PR to remove the brig from the game.

[Zilenan91]

Or not. See how the psychology of players evolves as hordes of assistants rush for the brig every round to get the loot first.

[Steelpoint]

Replace Security with Judge Dredd.

[VincVsVincent]

what it says on the tin, one week

This idea is fucking shit


inb4 ban for disagreeing with you

[Cheimon]

This is pretty good so far. As shit as HG's "consultation process" is, the station is slightly better without them.

[PKPenguin321]

This is pretty good so far. As shit as HG's "consultation process" is, the station is slightly better without them.

this so much

[Supermichael777]

I must say that i feel a whole lot more free to smack fools around without harmcrusher 9000 looming around spoiling my fun

[Malkevin]

Borgs probably got a lot more powerful after flashes got made useless as a weapon, because no one bothers carrying them anymore

[Zilenan91]

Buff flashes when