Test 3: No Secborgs

[Zilenan91]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Buff flashes when

[Saegrimr]

Buff flashes when

I do miss the days when they were a stun, but it pretty much made pepper spray useless. It's much nicer seeing pepper spray being used.

[Zilenan91]

I only see pepper spray used when people sit next to a pepper spray dispenser and blind people with it, it's a shit stun compared to batons and tasers.

[dionysus24779]

Meanwhile on the Silicon side of things there were a lot of frustrating situations in which the AI and borgs were reduced to watching and pleading for harm to stop.

Welp, can't wait for "No Sec" week, followed by "Antags aren't valid anymore" week.

[Malkevin]

I only see pepper spray used when people sit next to a pepper spray dispenser and blind people with it, it's a shit stun compared to batons and tasers.

Its the same stun length last I checked.

But that was several months back.

[Zilenan91]

Well yeah but any face covering or eyewear blocks it completely.

[Cuboos]

To tell you the truth... i haven't even noticed Secborgs are gone...

[Malkevin]

Unsurprising, you'd only ever see about two borgs in a round before this, and even then they were usually medical or engi borgs.

[PKPenguin321]

Unsurprising, you'd only ever see about two borgs in a round before this, and even then they were usually medical or engi borgs.

[GeeElAge]

I only see pepper spray used when people sit next to a pepper spray dispenser and blind people with it, it's a shit stun compared to batons and tasers.

Pepper spray is amazing against graytiders, because they usually don't wear eye covering gear and they never see it coming.

[FantasticFwoosh]

Pepperspray is not a long term solution but i back Gee up on its hella good.

Its less griffy than using a spray can ghetto style to the face, but both drop the perp long enough to get hits in or a taser/disabler shot off so you can secure them and drag them away from their weapon if any. It's also good for knocking down potential rev conversion targets without leaving a mark or requiring them to clean their face.

[Zilenan91]

Only gang spray cans stun people, not regular ones

[FantasticFwoosh]

Pepperspray is not a long term solution but i back Gee up on its hella good.

Its less griffy than using a spray can ghetto style to the face, but both drop the perp long enough to get hits in or a taser/disabler shot off so you can secure them and drag them away from their weapon if any. It's also good for knocking down potential rev conversion targets without leaving a mark or requiring them to clean their face.

I meant disables and trips if it makes contact with the eyes/face. That's pretty much the same thing as a pepper spray.

[Luke Cox]

It's been nearly two weeks. Can we end the test now?

[Zilenan91]

featuring top quality art made in 5 minutes

[PKPenguin321]

i think we should extend the test to forever.

[Luke Cox]

We should put it to a vote at the very least

[TechnoAlchemist]

I think overall this has been a good experience.

[Sweaterkittens]

Not a fan of this at all. Playing Security Borg was one of my favorite things before I started playing medical regularly. The issue with secborgs is a player problem, not a code problem. Seriously, start handing out bans (even if they're only for an hour or two) for people disobeying Asimov. Borgs aren't overpowered, they die to a goddamn laser pointer. If people are being shit with them they need to be punished so we don't all have to suffer for it.

[Zilenan91]

The issue is secborgs in general being overpowered and better in all circumstances to other borgs for preventing harm. Why fix the breach as an engiborg when you can disabler spam the guy making it? Why heal people getting beat up by the traitor when you could instantly fuck his round? Why be an engi or standard borg when emagged when you could have an infinite ammo laser gun instead of some shitty stunprod or an esword? Why allow conflict?

These issues can't really be fixed, and the issue of secborgs just being unfun to fight against can't be fixed either.

[dionysus24779]

The issue is secborgs in general being overpowered and better in all circumstances to other borgs for preventing harm.

Of course a borg specialized in preventing harm is more effective at doing so than another borg who is specialized in doing something else... that's like saying an engineering borg is overpowered and better to other borgs in building stuff, or a Mediborg is overpowered and better to other borgs in healing people.

Why fix the breach as an engiborg when you can disabler spam the guy making it?

Because that still leaves you with a breach... and I don't really see the connection here. Further engie borgs usually have a higher priority to secborgs without good reason.

Why heal people getting beat up by the traitor when you could instantly fuck his round?

Because that still leaves you with a beaten up human who, if in critical condition, has a higher priority to capturing someone who isn't about to harm someone else. Also how would a secborg "instantly" fuck someone's round? A regular security officer with a flashbang has a better shot at that.

Why be an engi or standard borg when emagged when you could have an infinite ammo laser gun instead of some shitty stunprod or an esword? Why allow conflict?

First of all it's not infinite (and I hate how people always say that), second of all that still doesn't help you in tons of other situations. A rogue engie borg can be dozens of times more destructive than a rogue secborg.

Also the stunprod and esword are really powerful too...

What can a secborg do? Shoot and stun people, great. What can an engieborg do? Dismantle half of the station, sabotage all machines and consoles, easily increase the power of shocking doors, mess with atmos, get through walls, repair itself...

These issues can't really be fixed, and the issue of secborgs just being unfun to fight against can't be fixed either.

I find this whole line of thinking absolutely perplexing, I know I'm probably biased since I usually play a borg, but even when I play a traitor I never ever had any problem with secborgs at all. If asimov (the default) you're even safer in the care of a secborg than actual security.

And I don't mean you specifically now, but this whole thing just sounds like a ton of whining to me, people want their greentext served on a silver platter.

I mean we should really have another test week with no security staff and then another in which traitors aren't valid anymore and you're not allowed to get in their way.

I've continued to play a borg during these two test weeks and there were countless moments of frustration because the AI and borgs were lacking the tools to act and fullfill their laws and in some rounds when Security was severely understaffed (like maybe 1 Warden + 1 Detective) traitors had basically sandbox easy mode.

And honestly... banning or whitelisting secborg players won't help here because players are so bitter and hateful towards secborgs and don't want anyone to stop their antagging that they will probably flood the admins with complains in order to get players banned.

And if we put it to a vote people will just vote to keep secborgs out anyway, because most players don't play borgs and it would make their antagging a bit easier.

This whole debate is just mind boggling to me.

[Aloraydrel]

the less of the big red meme borg the better to be quite honest

[Ikarrus]

I'm surprised it even took us this long to remove them.

This was a decision years late.

[sirnat]

Has everyone here forgotten?

Secborgs should stay removed, they're not the only module to stop harm.

Y'know, standard cyborgs? Yeah they have stun batons

[Steelpoint]

Many servers removed Security Cyborgs years ago.

While I dislike the way this was put forward, I do support the change.

[dionysus24779]

And in a few years we will remove Standard Borgs once the meta has changed.

I'll give up.

This is just ridiculous.

[ShadowDimentio]

Thanks HG, you ruined yet another thing.

Also shoutouts to everyone in here just barking I LIKE THIS, THIS IS GOOD without actually saying why they want secborgs gone.

[dionysus24779]

We should then at least alter the default AI lawset to something else that frees the AI of the duty to prevent harm, since the effective tools of fighting against it are being taken away.

Just like:

Law 1: You may not injure a human being.
(Law 2+3 as they are)

That way borgs and the AI are still not allowed to harm humans, but they also don't have to prevent or care about it anymore. Because it's really frustrating.

[sirnat]

Security cyborgs never follow law 2 when detaining a non harmful human, even when you ahelp it admins only give them a slap on the wrist about it.

Atleast standard's cant "Detain" you without losing a shit ton of charge, and dont have zip ties so they cant force you to stay down too long.

[Zilenan91]

Standard borgs also aren't insanely overpowered when emagged

[PKPenguin321]

Thanks HG, you ruined yet another thing.

Also shoutouts to everyone in here just barking I LIKE THIS, THIS IS GOOD without actually saying why they want secborgs gone.

i think secborgs gave too much power to the AI by way of validhunting, and without secborgs antags have a lot more freedom. this is a good thing IMO as more happens in a round now.

And in a few years we will remove Standard Borgs once the meta has changed.

I'll give up.

This is just ridiculous.

standard borg's single stun baton and melee esword when they get emagged is not really comparable to secborg's ranged stun, handcuffs, and ranged laser (which can also be used at point blank, which kind of invalidates the esword). even if it does become the new meta for validhunter silicons, it will never be as strong.

[Ricotez]

Law 1: You may not injure a human being.

This can lead to two things.

1. The silicons will figure out that they can harm humans as long as they do so in a situation where it is their inactivity that caused the harm. IE, shock a door, then refrain from unshocking it which is what causes the harm. This is exactly what happens in one of Asimov's own stories, where the robots in a factory have their first law changed to this and then use this excuse to harm the humans in the factory.
2. The same as 1, but admins add the AI policy that this kind of behaviour is not allowed... Therefore effectively turning Law 1 back in what it was before the change, making everything a massive waste of time.

[Incomptinence]

They just want the inaction clause and all ways to enforce it removed because they get in fights every round and have the illusion that an officer in the same position would let them continue.

[Malkevin]

It would atleast stop AIs feeling like they're forced to get between sec and their valids.

[Incomptinence]

Or you could just put someone in perma and be happy about that.

[dionysus24779]

Why don't we have a test week or two for that as well?

Will be very relaxing when people cannot stop "HUMAN HARM!" at every little inconvinience and antags wouldn't have a reason to shoot borgs outside of validkilling.

[ShadowDimentio]

Thanks HG, you ruined yet another thing.

Also shoutouts to everyone in here just barking I LIKE THIS, THIS IS GOOD without actually saying why they want secborgs gone.

i think secborgs gave too much power to the AI by way of validhunting, and without secborgs antags have a lot more freedom. this is a good thing IMO as more happens in a round now.

>Antags have a lot more freedom

I see little difference between a guard or a secborg coming to arrest you when called out by the AI for shooting the captain. It still ends with you in perma. Literally all removing secborg does is shifting the borg meta very slightly and making the AI's job to prevent harm just that much more suffering. Traitor just shot the captain? Well shit, I'd usually send in the secborg to have a fighting chance against it but they're removed so the engi, janitor and service borg are going to have to try and stop him from harming more. Oh shit, they all just got roflstomped because they aren't built for this and the traitor has now murdered like ten people and nuked the station, and now everyone is bitching at me. Welp, this sucks.

[Zilenan91]

Then don't play AI if you can't handle what's in the job description

[ShadowDimentio]

I'm already AI banned because Saeg didn't like my opinions on AI policy so get dunked son

Also nice meme response buddy, really nice

[Zilenan91]

So you're just brainstorming theoretical situations that haven't happened yet and acting like you know what you're talking about

[ShadowDimentio]

That's a fancy way of saying "logic"

But I mean if you want to explain where I went wrong in my reasoning I'm all ears

[PKPenguin321]

Traitor just shot the captain? Well shit, I'd usually send in the secborg to have a fighting chance against it but they're removed so the engi, janitor and service borg are going to have to try and stop him from harming more. Oh shit, they all just got roflstomped because they aren't built for this and the traitor has now murdered like ten people and nuked the station, and now everyone is bitching at me. Welp, this sucks.

as it should be
the crew shouldn't have that second line of borg defense, and the situation you described is fine

and yeah, that would suck, for you. it would be engaging and fun for the traitor and for the people he has to fight. if a secborg borg dunked him when he was fighting, then the round would essentially end right there, and then nobody gets any fun at all. you have to accept losing as an AI, my friend.

[ShadowDimentio]

True, but as I said, what's the difference between the AI dispatching a secborg and them dispatching a guard? It still ends with the traitor getting dunked, rendering the secborg removal COMPLETELY pointless except to make the AI's life more difficult.

[oranges]

>rendering the secborg removal COMPLETELY pointless except to make the AI's life more difficult.

>except to make the AI's life more difficult

[PKPenguin321]

True, but as I said, what's the difference between the AI dispatching a secborg and them dispatching a guard? It still ends with the traitor getting dunked, rendering the secborg removal COMPLETELY pointless except to make the AI's life more difficult.

>make the AI's life more difficult

as it should be

not to mention that if you honestly think that borgs are just as easy or easier to defeat than human sec officers when playing as the average antagonist, you need to reevaluate that because you are incorrect in the most factual sense

[dionysus24779]

Antags have a lot more freedom

I feel like this is really what this is all about, to make antagging easier by removing step by step everything that could stop it. And the silicons are usually the first things to be nerfed.

Then don't play AI if you can't handle what's in the job description

This is incredibly backwards logic. Up until now it wasn't a huge issue to actually "do your job" as AI, but now with one hand cut off it naturally leads to frustration.

I mean this is like saying you shouldn't play Botanist if you can't deal with the inability to grow plants, or don't play Miner if you don't like having no hardsuit and no pickaxe.

And this is also what I meant with changing the laws and policies. If you take away the AI's tools to do the job then take that part out of the job description!

So you're just brainstorming theoretical situations that haven't happened yet and acting like you know what you're talking about

This actually totally happened, like multiple times, during the two test weeks and it's incredibly frustrating for all Silicon players.

not to mention that if you honestly think that borgs are just as easy or easier to defeat than human sec officers when playing as the average antagonist, you need to reevaluate that because you are incorrect in the most factual sense

I feel like this right here is the real player problem.

It seems that most players either don't know how to deal with borgs, don't want to plan ahead because it's too hard, simply aren't robust enough to take it into account or they just want it to be easy mode all day every day.

This is the same as when the AI was removed or constantly nerfed. (like Cameras only sending an alert once the alert has been cleared is absolutely ridiculous and makes no sense at all)

And as I said earlier, I think we seriously should have another test week without any security staff at all and another week when antags get special protected no-valid interfere-and-be-banned status.

[Malkevin]

>a week without security
So a typical week of medium pop rounds then


By the way, indirect actions are still actions.
Alerting the crew that harm is happening and asking the nasty person to stop is enough of an action for law 1.

[ShadowDimentio]

True, but as I said, what's the difference between the AI dispatching a secborg and them dispatching a guard? It still ends with the traitor getting dunked, rendering the secborg removal COMPLETELY pointless except to make the AI's life more difficult.

>make the AI's life more difficult

as it should be

not to mention that if you honestly think that borgs are just as easy or easier to defeat than human sec officers when playing as the average antagonist, you need to reevaluate that because you are incorrect in the most factual sense

Every antagonist has hard counters to borgs (EMPs, guns, screech) or doesn't give a single fuck about them (blob). If you're SERIOUSLY that afraid of the big bad secborg but don't take anything to counter them it's your own fault when you get fucked. Removing things because of bad playing is a fucking stupid way to do things.

It's like bringing a knife to a gunfight and complaining you keep losing until the guns get removed.

[Malkevin]

Could've just tossed more flashes and laser pointers about the place.

The big bad borg isn't much of a threat when it can't move (or speak?) for more time than it takes to scrap it with your esword.

[Shad0vvs]

Could've just tossed more flashes and laser pointers about the place.

The big bad borg isn't much of a threat when it can't move (or speak?) for more time than it takes to scrap it with your esword.

I'd rather just not have the module if you think that's fun.

[PKPenguin321]

True, but as I said, what's the difference between the AI dispatching a secborg and them dispatching a guard? It still ends with the traitor getting dunked, rendering the secborg removal COMPLETELY pointless except to make the AI's life more difficult.

>make the AI's life more difficult

as it should be

not to mention that if you honestly think that borgs are just as easy or easier to defeat than human sec officers when playing as the average antagonist, you need to reevaluate that because you are incorrect in the most factual sense

Every antagonist has hard counters to borgs (EMPs, guns, screech) or doesn't give a single fuck about them (blob). If you're SERIOUSLY that afraid of the big bad secborg but don't take anything to counter them it's your own fault when you get fucked. Removing things because of bad playing is a fucking stupid way to do things.

It's like bringing a knife to a gunfight and complaining you keep losing until the guns get removed.

>he honestly thinks borgs are easier to defeat than human sec officers
N I C E
i know to ignore your opinions now