Security's representation on Github.

[Oldman Robustin]

It's an established meme that coders don't play this game.

But within that meme lies another, there's virtually no presence of security players among the currently active coders. Some people may claim to play security buts its usually "I spent a round AFK in my dept. outpost while chatting in #coderbus so I can definitely say what security needs".

I'm generally fine with the democracy approach to changes, but by the very nature of the game, security is outnumbered by non-security. Every meme that puts security at a disadvantage is widely supported by everyone else because security is usually the only thing standing between them and the antag/grief round of their dreams. Yet security considerations absolutely deserve consideration. Even admins are guilty of overlooking security's needs, it's a systematic problem that has led to a following vicious cycle where experienced players leave security roles due to how unfun they can be, less experienced players in security means security becomes an even less attractive position to the robust, and it continues until we get to the current situation where I can count on one hand how many GOOD security players sign up whereas I'd need an excel spreadsheet to track all the veterans who sign up for mining/science because you get all the fun without any of the stress.

I'm not saying we need anything revolutionary, I'm just asking you people to consider the minority position. No matter which side you root for, this game is completely dependent on security being a competent foil for the antagonists, yet our code changes are almost universally biased against security. Whether you want to admit it or not, it has taken a toll on the quality of security. Every week there's a PR that unilaterally favors antagonists in some form or another, yet opening a completely pro-security PR is virtually guaranteed to be closed in a week. There is absolutely no room for debating the security is the most stressful yet unappreciated role on the station, could we make an effort to try and recognize that?

[Zilenan91]

We Aurora now

[TechnoAlchemist]

As someone who plays a lot of security I really appreciate the administration stepping off on bwoinking sec players for minor shit.

The main thing that has been killing my drive to play sec has been gang, if I'm sec I either have to exile myself , accept that I'm going to die, or try my hardest to combat multiple gangs with an understaffed department and die anyways. Then after that, my drive to play sec is killed so I just go mine

[Steelpoint]

I haven't played in a while but I only really played as Sec or on off times Med and Janitor.

Historically Oldman is right on the PR front. Buffs to antagonist, within reason, are usually well received. But even minor buffs to Security were oft rejected or at least were given a lot of resistance.

[oranges]

this game is completely dependent on security being a competent foil for the antagonists

Mindless babble and nonsense.

yet our code changes are almost universally biased against security

Pointless overexaggeration.

Tone down the rhetoric.

[Steelpoint]

He's correct on that security is a necessary force to push against antagonists and to help drive the round.

The exsistance of Security is to, in theory, present a organized force that works to stop the rounds antagonists, who have the means and facilities to do so. Without a security force many game modes fall apart when the antagonists face minimal resistance, look to gang, Nuke Ops, cult or whatever for example of low to no pop security.

[Cheridan]

Without a security force many game modes fall apart when the antagonists face minimal resistance, look to gang

Delusional. All Sec does in Gang is go full martial law fun police as soon as someone see graffiti and disrupt what is supposed to be an Antag vs Antag mode.

[PKPenguin321]

Cheri and oranges are right
Sec is just a check to power of antags so that antags have a good reason to be given all the crazy traitor item shit that they have. Sec should never overpower antags by default because it makes the game fucking boring

[Steelpoint]

Without a security force many game modes fall apart when the antagonists face minimal resistance, look to gang

Delusional. All Sec does in Gang is go full martial law fun police as soon as someone see graffiti and disrupt what is supposed to be an Antag vs Antag mode.

The real delusion is trying to shut out Security in a game mode that pits two (or more) antagonist factions against each other.

Not even Goonstation, who created the gang game mode, shut out Security but instead they incorporated them in a way. Then again its not fair to compare the two as Goon's Gang is more tame than ours.

The idea of telling Security players to fuck off during gang mode (or other modes) is kinda one of the problems. No one is suggesting that Security need round start pulse rifles and adrenal implants, but at the same time security need a reasonable chance to succeed. Which to be fair is somewhat achieved in most game modes, with sec population being the bigger problem to security success or failure, competence aside.

[Oldman Robustin]

Mindless babble and nonsense.

Please meet:

Pointless overexaggeration.

Tone down the rhetoric.

[bandit]

As someone who plays a lot of security I really appreciate the administration stepping off on bwoinking sec players for minor shit.

As an admin, know that we hate having to bwoink security players for stuff we know is going to be nothing as much as, or even more than, security players getting bwoinked.

[Oldman Robustin]

The fact people are sincerely debating whether we need competent security as a foil to antagonists is a demonstration of how off-the-mark some people are. It shouldn't even be up for debate.

Gang is pretty much the only round designed to function without security, and even then it's still shit without security because 99% of the time one gang just snowballs the shit out of the others. Security is a natural pushback for the most aggressively expanding gang since they're more likely to get sec's attention/implants. But even then, Gang is like <10% of what we play here. Even this discussion about gang shows how short-sighted people are. Security is a fun-killer in Gang because coders DESIGNED THE MODE LIKE THAT. Without security almost everyone ends up being inducted into a gang and gets to enjoy all the freedom and griff of being an antagonist, security is there to shut down the stun and with 2-step deconversion you're often stuffed into a cell/perma 5ever while security tries to dredge up more implants. Security is DESIGNED to be the spoiler in Gang War but instead of acknowledging that and changing that design, we just act like Security's a shit and continue to make sure they never get any love.

Look at all the veteran players active right now, what positions do they keep coming back to? Botany, Chemistry, RND, Xenobiology, Toxins... all positions that let you get powerful shit, make you open to antag conversion instead of getting murdered, don't make you a major target for your access/gear, and free you from the responsibilities expected from security players.

I had no love for sec borgs, but removing them was a MASSIVE blow to security's strength. I don't think anyone quite comprehends how much strength security lost last month. Some of the lost power from secborg removal absolutely should've gone back to security in some other form. It could range from one big change to several smaller ones, but every time you're guaranteed a barrage of 8+ negative comments, thumbs down, etc. from the same people if you try to make security feel less stressful.

The number of players who set HoS or Warden to HIGH round down to 0% of our playerbase, Security officer is sitting at 1%. Being the cook is more popular than being a security officer.

There's just a certain hopelessness to it, knowing that no matter what I do to try and give security a hand, it's going to be stuck in a months-long shitshow PR.

[Steelpoint]

Then what's the solution? Security will always be in a perilous position but that doesn't mean we can't smooth out the ride a bit.

[oranges]

delete the role and make the entire crew the antag foil

[Oldman Robustin]

If security were anywhere near as fun to play as mining/RND/xeno/genetics/viro/botany/chemistry/cargo we'd be in a much better place. The fact that Security is on LIBRARIAN-tier of enjoyment is not surprising, most of the rounds I play HoS nowday I find myself wishing I had picked librarian instead.

But whenever security improvement PR's come, they get savaged. Powerful new features for Xeno? RND? Fuck yea let merge that shit. Security? Hell no get the fuck out.

There's no shortage of ideas that would make sec more enjoyable. Shit as simple as "Give security its medkit back" to advanced stuff like giving security a prisoner transport/teleport system would be an improvement. It wouldn't be hard to balance or implement a 3rd mode for eguns/tasers that would channel a teleport back to the brig for prisoners, but if the prisoner get pulled/bumped away then the process is cancelled. The prisoner could be sent to a new room for processing (every map's brig design has 1-2 useless rooms) and it would remove a major headache for security.

Yet I can already see the 10 thumbs down, I DED tag, and people shouting that I wanted to make security ezmode if I ever tried to waste the effort on that feature.

[Zilenan91]

Security as an idea is flawed because the community makes it flawed. People get banned and disgraced for validhunting, yet the only reason Security exists is to validhunt and stop antagonists in a round. They have no other goal, nothing. They sit in the brig, or they go after antags, there is no in-between or point to argue about this because this is reality.

To change this wouldn't really be all that difficult if I'm honest. What I'd do is remove their tasers and roll the security department jobs into Cargo and combine them. Sec officers could be shaft miners and could either stick around on station or go down to lavaland to go do stuff, the Warden wouldn't exist, and the HoS would be the QM. They would also likely have better weapons in their armory/a communal armory in order to deal with the lavaland creatures due to an absence of KAs since the main reason miners have KAs in the first place isn't so they have a ranged mining tool but so they can kill stuff with it.

[Cheridan]

That's the entire problem with Security, Oldman. Every single addition to Sec is a nerf to antags. It's the antag fighting job. It shouldn't come as a surprise that people can buff the Janitor or Chef or whatever, because changes to those jobs don't have anywhere near the impact on balance. The big exception is Blob win/loss being completely dependent on Science's toys but that's really an issue with Blob first and the job second.

delete the role and make the entire crew the antag foil

This is the best option. Let the crew deal with their own issues. We already have players who like to go vigilante rather than being Sec, so we might as well take advantage of it instead of demonizing them.

[Zilenan91]

Just roll sec into cargo, add more shaft miner slots, make the mobs more challenging and give them an armory in the Warehouse. It would need some spriting, but the upside would be that the people who play sec officer would actually have shit to do for their job rather than sit in the brig and go out when antags start doing stuff, they'd be on lavaland.

[J_Madison]

Nobody wants to play sec. You're right on that. Even the most mechanically adept or skilled player on tgstation doesn't want to play sec.

Now fittingly, I would blame the player. But it also is a content issue. There's little representation of security in PRs. Things are downvoted or shunned by assistant players, players that have no right to discuss security at all.

Of course back to my previous point, security is just awful to play not just because of content but because of players. The most you can currently do to change how players play would be to drastically reduce the power of all other departments and at the same time apply a massive nerf to their validhunting capabilities.

That's my view. I'm not one to play sec especially on tg. It just won't happen considering the massive nerfs to armour and equipment that has been applied which makes it masochistic to play.

[Zilenan91]

Changing the players is something you should never even consider as a game designer because that is how you lose all of them. You change your game around what your players do.

[J_Madison]

Changing the players is something you should never even consider as a game designer because that is how you lose all of them. You change your game around what your players do.

I wouldn't change the player. That's something I've tried before and changing people, controlling minds, that kind of stuff never works.

Easier to remove the problem. But that's administrative. Changing the game around what players do has resulted in the removal of away missions on Sybil, dumbed down content, weakened security, massively buffed antags, and horrible gameplay aspects. Wouldn't call it a fair trade.

[lumipharon]

Why would I want to play as security anymore?

It's unfun shit, and because no other good players play the roles anymore, you're 99% guaranteed to either have a shit sec team or no sec team at all.

Lots of people strongly dislike sec, and just spout memes when people sincerely try to improve them, so good luck getting past certain individuals.

[Gun Hog]

Exactly how I feel about the treatment of silicons, especially borgs, lately.

[ShadowDimentio]

If only someone could have foreseen removing security borgs as being a bad idea

But shit, nerfing security AND the silicons at once was just too sweet an opportunity

[oranges]

J_Madison things that only security should get to do the fun anti antag stuff, because he is a meme.

[Oldman Robustin]

Why would I want to play as security anymore?

It's unfun shit, and because no other good players play the roles anymore, you're 99% guaranteed to either have a shit sec team or no sec team at all.

Lots of people strongly dislike sec, and just spout memes when people sincerely try to improve them, so good luck getting past certain individuals.

Yea that echoes my sentiment and the sentiment of other veteran sec players I've talked to.

I have a competitive personality and security is a natural draw for me, but it's become so terribly unfun between balance changes and the spiral of death with low-quality players that it's often more stressful and unpleasant than an actual job.

If this thread can convince some of those memesters to stop blindly opposing every sec improvement, maybe I can take a crack at it. I'm not mourning the secborg but I do know that losing the secborg was a huge blow to security, they need something else to compensate for the loss of their unstunnable validhunter. Again, security positions are now at LIBRARIAN-TIER levels of preference.

[Steelpoint]

Security Issue Gygax when? Give it less health.

Jokes aside I would be interested in seeing what we can brain storm and come up with, before we start yelling to nerf it.

[bandit]

The solution to all this is sec antag, but no one wants to acknowledge it.

[Malkevin]

Can anyone even name the last buff security got?
What was it - two extra shots to the laser gun? Even that was argued over for a month and was slashed massively from the original 15.

I suppose there was that PR I finally got merged that tweaked how tracking implants worked, but that wasn't exactly a buff.

Meanwhile their armor gets nerfed to the point where theres not much point wearing it aside from it letting you carry weapons in your exosuit, then the same person that nerfed that twinks out the chaplain with spess magic weapons and armor.

[onleavedontatme]

Why would security need buffs though? Makes more sense to bring antags back down if they get out of control rather than have an arms race that escalates forever.

Also I pretty much played sec exclusively before lavaland, but the thing that turns me off from it most is the risk of being trapped with literally nothing to do in a pseudo-extended round like low pop traitor. Security has nothing to do and you can't really suicide either.

Not sure why the chaplain stuff is relevant to this. Anyone who thinks a single set of riot armour and a single force 18 weapon is some kind of game changing balance, or even very effective in single encounters, does not understand the game very much at all.

[Hornygranny]

Can anyone even name the last buff security got?
What was it - two extra shots to the laser gun? Even that was argued over for a month and was slashed massively from the original 15.

I suppose there was that PR I finally got merged that tweaked how tracking implants worked, but that wasn't exactly a buff.

Meanwhile their armor gets nerfed to the point where theres not much point wearing it aside from it letting you carry weapons in your exosuit, then the same person that nerfed that twinks out the chaplain with spess magic weapons and armor.

Compared to their original incarnation security has received outrageous buffs. Dedicated hardsuits, an entire armory, flashbang "immunity", carrying capacity, sechuds, the permabrig, more secure brig design period.

[TechnoAlchemist]

Unrelated - but if you're bored as sec just get more access to work in a department.

[Oldman Robustin]

Unrelated - but if you're bored as sec just get more access to work in a department.

>Just get more access

Hue. Also people tend to flip their shit when an officer starts TOUCHING THINGS REEEEE.


@HG

I would honestly say its questionable as to whether the armory is even a buff. It gets used to murder far more by people who sneak in or bust in from space than from actual officers. I think the policy rules against fortifying the armory are absolutely silly too. Code Blue... sitting on enough weapons to kill us all... start to put up a barrier... *BWOINK*

Hiding the armory is one thing, but fortifying it against intrusion should be 100% allowed. Dedicated hardsuits are a nice convenience thing but still completely inferior to what engineering/atmos gets, its hardly a big boost to security's potency since you have to go to EVA anyway if you don't want to be a free kill for the first jetpack-antag that spots you.

Of course flashbangs are great but they're probably the ONLY thing I'd say was a complete upgrade for security, even then you could make the argument that the nerfs to stuns, making eguns shoot disablers instead of tasers, and the huge assortment of buffs given to the station's foes, that it hardly puts them ahead of where they used it to be.

The brig is objectively less secure than its ever been in SS13 history. We've had cheap c4/x4 added, RCD's went from super-rare and super-limited use to now you've got 50+ uses available to a roundstart engineer or cargo tech. All those R_wall and bolts don't mean shit when someone can just eat 2 doors in about 10 seconds and have uninhibited brig access.

Lastly: This issue has never gone away. Security has always had trouble attracting good players, that's why I'm trying to shine light on this issue.

[Malkevin]

Can anyone even name the last buff security got?
What was it - two extra shots to the laser gun? Even that was argued over for a month and was slashed massively from the original 15.

I suppose there was that PR I finally got merged that tweaked how tracking implants worked, but that wasn't exactly a buff.

Meanwhile their armor gets nerfed to the point where theres not much point wearing it aside from it letting you carry weapons in your exosuit, then the same person that nerfed that twinks out the chaplain with spess magic weapons and armor.

Compared to their original incarnation security has received outrageous buffs. Dedicated hardsuits, an entire armory, flashbang "immunity", carrying capacity, sechuds, the permabrig, more secure brig design period.

Oh wow a hardsuit with massive slowdown and fuck all armor and no inbuilt jets or even a jetpack in the locker, such a buff. They're so inferior at space combat compared to antag hardsuits or engi hardsuits its laughable.

The other stuff are moot points because they've had them for over five years, might as well say Robotocists have been buffed massively because they can build mechs.
And the brig is hardly secure, getting in through the court room is easy. Blasting open the brig cells is a matter of a firecracker and a welding tank.



Anyway, securities problems of today aren't actually problems of code or administration... for a change.
The main issue I'd say is server configuration. The funnest round to play security is traitor because you get to do stuff other than hunt the antag as the antags aren't loud and in your face always, detective gets to investigate crimes occasionally, security gets to actually enforce the law on the plebeians.
But it seems traitor has a really low weighting now.

The other rounds are just overall terrible for security.
Blob just consumes the entire round and is incredibly fucking boring to boot.
Wizard is 15 minutes of hunt the magical bastard, this can be fun but only in moderation.
Cult and gang have the problem that security is just fucked and everyone calls them power gaming cunts if they do what needs doing.
Rev is basically the same but atleast you have the objective of protecting the VIPs - but its still three game modes that are basically the same, conversion game modes are cancer.
Nuke ops is again all consuming, especially war mode, and nuke ops have been twinked so hard its really not fun to fight against them in the slightest
Malf (when enabled)... security is completely useless in this.

See what the above have in common? They're literally team death match modes that always play out the same handful of ways.
Traitor/Traitorchan/Ling used to be the bread and butter of this game because it was quiet enough for RP to happen, dynamic situations would happen so every round would just that little bit different enough to feel unique.


The other issue is players are even more pathetically shit than they ever have been.
You've got players like oranges that are disgusted that sec dares even attempt to prevent an antag getting that green text, or they call you a no fun nazi if you don't spend all your time valid hunting but actually spend most of your time dealing with lawbreakers (even calling space law a 'silly bit of fluff on the wiki') - I mean you literally can't fucking win with these people unless you suicide at round start in front of them so they can get valid hunting gear (because its okay for them to fight the tags, rite??)
And how rare is it now that people even bother calling for security? People have just become so apathetic to law breakers security might as well not exist. Hell, even the crimes that get commited are so minor they're barely worth punishing - theres a lot of petty criminals but few people stealing space suits or the cap's gear, or breaking into engineering to steal gloves (or again, this probably does still happen but no body reports it)

And then what few sec players remain are either completely incompetent, or are total cretins like is-a-lizard/unloved rock - someone that would rather commit mutiny than do what needs to be done.


I used to be a sec player because although the rest of the game was the same thing round after round, and had gotten stale only six months after playing, security was always dynamic and interesting and it was always fun to work with a team.
That just doesn't happen anymore.

[onleavedontatme]

I actually did bump traitor/da/traitorling to be ~60% of round types for a couple months, but people complained (including Robustin actually) and we slowly went back to the 30 traitor/70 tdm split.

[Zilenan91]

Just roll sec into cargo, add more shaft miner slots, make the mobs more challenging and give them an armory in the Warehouse. It would need some spriting, but the upside would be that the people who play sec officer would actually have shit to do for their job rather than sit in the brig and go out when antags start doing stuff, they'd be on lavaland.

A lot of the problem I have with sec is that there's little to do. So what would combining Cargo and Security do?

[Steelpoint]

Compared to their original incarnation security has received outrageous buffs. Dedicated hardsuits, an entire armory, flashbang "immunity", carrying capacity, sechuds, the permabrig, more secure brig design period.

The dedicated hardsuits are among the worst hardsuits on station. Aside from having a very slight armour boost (barely above the already pathetic vest armour) they have no real advantages over any other kind of hardsuit. They are slow as buggery, they lack any form of internal jetpack or even access to a security jetpack and they have no real niche. Unless Security gets a jetpack from EVA (assuming they've not been stolen/spaced) then they're fucked when fighting against anyone in space who either has access to a jetpack (engineering, antagonists, mining, etc) or has a internal jetpack.

The 'entire armoury' is overrated and has been around for years. Little has been added to it and in fact it has been nerfed slightly in the past, as well as a nerf to weapon effectiveness from egun nerfs and alike. Not to mention we are in a period where its never been easier to break into secure areas, assuming there's even anyone defending the armoury you have access to cheap c4, or easy to access RCD's or other equipment that lets you rapidly break into the armoury.

Flashbang immunity is one buff, but don't forget that this is a two edged sword as its possible for station crew to gain this immunity easily AND many antagonists are also flashbang immune, such as Nuke Ops, anyone with a adrenal implant, Wizard's, etc.

The perma brig is hardly a buff as its been around since the inception of security almost, and sometimes it has been hard to fortify the brig's weak points due to admins having a issue with that.

E: Lets also not forget that some of these "buffs" have seen attempts to nerf them in the past. The proposed Flashbang nerf (which it think you HG were behind) attempted to make Flashbangs all but useless, and the addition of hardsuits into the armoury was a hard fought addition that saw a lot of resistance.

Also I really want to know who keeps removing the brig medkit. I added it in a PR but it seems someone keeps removing it without mentioning it, despite me constantly saying I'm adding it.

[onleavedontatme]

Also I really want to know who keeps removing the brig medkit. I added it in a PR but it seems someone keeps removing it without mentioning it, despite me constantly saying I'm adding it.

This is a good question.

[Hornygranny]

The dedicated hardsuits are among the worst hardsuits on station. Aside from having a very slight armour boost (barely above the already pathetic vest armour) they have no real advantages over any other kind of hardsuit. They are slow as buggery, they lack any form of internal jetpack or even access to a security jetpack and they have no real niche. Unless Security gets a jetpack from EVA (assuming they've not been stolen/spaced) then they're fucked when fighting against anyone in space who either has access to a jetpack (engineering, antagonists, mining, etc) or has a internal jetpack.

It's true that they're not as good as they used to be, but at the time there was no such thing as an internal jetpack (power creep), nor do the shitty softsuits have armor to speak of. Their utility isn't even fighting in space, it's the ability to ignore environmental hazards on a damaged station (blobs, bombed areas).

The 'entire armoury' is overrated and has been around for years. Little has been added to it and in fact it has been nerfed slightly in the past, as well as a nerf to weapon effectiveness from egun nerfs and alike. Not to mention we are in a period where its never been easier to break into secure areas, assuming there's even anyone defending the armoury you have access to cheap c4, or easy to access RCD's or other equipment that lets you rapidly break into the armoury.

It has absolutely been easier to break in to secure areas before. Remember when you could burn an rwall with 1u thermite? Remember when you could RCD an rwall in about a second? The brig itself didn't even have rwalls in the past, you could tear down a wall in a couple seconds with hand tools.

Flashbang immunity is one buff, but don't forget that this is a two edged sword as its possible for station crew to gain this immunity easily AND many antagonists are also flashbang immune, such as Nuke Ops, anyone with a adrenal implant, Wizard's, etc.

Flashbangs are anti-greytide (conversion antags) and are a gearcheck I would gladly see removed from the game. The fact that many antags are flat out immune to them is a tacit acknowledgement that they are badly designed.

What I'm reading here is that security just hasn't gotten the same level of power creep as other departments.

If you want to know who's removing the medkit just look at the diffs on the last map changes, it may not even be on purpose.

[allura]

The exsistance of Security is to, in theory, present a organized force that works to stop the rounds antagonists, who have the means and facilities to do so.

Sec is just a check to power of antags so that antags have a good reason to be given all the crazy traitor item shit that they have.

People get banned and disgraced for validhunting, yet the only reason Security exists is to validhunt and stop antagonists in a round.

Delusional manchildren who take this game way too seriously. Security isn't a validhunting antagonist fighting superforce. The point of security is to enable fun. That means stopping rampaging antagonists or arresting even a non antag assistant who is breaking into Medbay. If you play it like you're a counterterrorist hero then you won't have any fun.

[PKPenguin321]

Delusional manchildren who take this game way too seriously. Security isn't a validhunting antagonist fighting superforce.

tell this to the people that play security

[Wyzack]

As sec your job is to protect people and corporate interest. How seriously you take either depends on your character. I tend to prioritize former over the latter

[Super Aggro Crag]

what absolute twaddle

everyone knows coders keep buffing antags and nerfing anything that stops them because they can get antag tokens whenever they want to "test" their latest "I-Win-Combo". you should just give all traitors immunity to damage so they can murder the crew to their hearts contentment, after all who cares if people actually play the game or do their job, the only thing that matters is that 5 players out of 60 get to have "fun".

[Super Aggro Crag]

literally ad hominem

[oranges]

not when it's true

[Cheimon]

not when it's true

It's still ad hominem if it's true, it just might not be fallacious if the personal attacks are relevant.

[Jazaen]

Also I really want to know who keeps removing the brig medkit. I added it in a PR but it seems someone keeps removing it without mentioning it, despite me constantly saying I'm adding it.

If the last time you added it was https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/12122, then you must have removed it with https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/12336.

[Steelpoint]

Except in that last PR you can explicitly see the medkit still being in the Warden's Office on the lower middle side of that image.


-------------------------------here^

[onleavedontatme]

It's still there as of today.

[Steelpoint]

I know, but I was pointing out how it was always being removed in the past. Its on the map right now thanks to that PR but historically someone was always removing it without noting its removal.