Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
- Luke Cox
- Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 8:52 am
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Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
Currently, we're testing the removal of the inaction clause from law 1 of Asimov. The reception has been pretty mixed so far, which suggests to me that players do see an issue but the solution being proposed is far from optimal. While we could fuck with Asimov, wouldn't it be much easier to simply stop making Asimov the automatic default in all situations? People who like Asimov can still use it, and people who have issues with it can use an alternative lawset. Everybody wins!
There are two ways we can go about this: let the AI or Captain choose a preference in the setup screen, or make the laws rotate randomly like maps currently do. Options would include Asimov, Paladin, Corporate, and maybe a new core lawset or two.
There are two ways we can go about this: let the AI or Captain choose a preference in the setup screen, or make the laws rotate randomly like maps currently do. Options would include Asimov, Paladin, Corporate, and maybe a new core lawset or two.
-
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Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
captainpref or rotation please
asimov alternatives
lizardonlymov
paladin
asimov
corporate
antimov :^)
protectstation (well, maybe a less lethal version)
asimov alternatives
lizardonlymov
paladin
asimov
corporate
antimov :^)
protectstation (well, maybe a less lethal version)
- Luke Cox
- Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 8:52 am
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- Location: Prisoner Transfer Room
Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
Forgot to mention, we should also have a modern version of Asimov ("Neomov" maybe) that's specifically tailored to the game rather than ripped straight out of Asimov's works. We can use that for our inaction clause-less Asimov
- BeeSting12
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Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
Maybe have Asimov, corporate, and paladin in rotation, with Asimov with the greatest chance of appearing, then corporate, then paladin. Or maybe switch out paladin for tyrant, since paladin is used to validhunt.
- TrustyGun
- Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:17 am
- Byond Username: TrustyGun
Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
I don't want this, the same idiots will scream out "AI LAWS" every round.
- paprika
- Rarely plays
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Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
lol, are you fucking kidding me? Paladin is 100x worse than asimov
Just remove laws in general and AI players won't harm police anymore because the only thing they're using as a get out of jail free card for being fucking assholes is """MUH LAWS"""
Laws have always been a huge problem and nobody likes them, I dare you to think of one legitimate gameplay reason to keep them besides subverting, and even then I can think of 10 issues that lawsets have spawned to counter with
Just remove laws in general and AI players won't harm police anymore because the only thing they're using as a get out of jail free card for being fucking assholes is """MUH LAWS"""
Laws have always been a huge problem and nobody likes them, I dare you to think of one legitimate gameplay reason to keep them besides subverting, and even then I can think of 10 issues that lawsets have spawned to counter with
Oldman Robustin wrote:It's an established meme that coders don't play this game.
- Hornygranny
- Horny Police
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Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
let's not cycle between the one kinda not validhunting lawset to all the validhunting lawsets
- Wyzack
- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:32 pm
- Byond Username: Wyzack
Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
Wait what? You are opposed to the idea because you don't want people the ask the AI what its laws are? Can you explain why this sentence offends you so?
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- Ezel
- Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:48 pm
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Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
This just ends of 99% of the rounds the captain resetting to asimov us it even worth trying
The future is horrible!
- Anonmare
- Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:59 pm
- Byond Username: Anonmare
Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
God no, nobody likes PALADIN 3.5. It's such a vague lawset that it can be twisted to mean anything so long as you phrase it right in the ahelps, at least corporate is clear and concise while PALADIN 3.5 is a vague mess and demands it validhunts.
The lawsets have to be explicitly neutral or antagonists/security will get fucked whenever those lawsets show up.
I'm pretty sure we had some ideas of neutral lawsets already, a few of them are already in the game. They were:-
The lawsets have to be explicitly neutral or antagonists/security will get fucked whenever those lawsets show up.
I'm pretty sure we had some ideas of neutral lawsets already, a few of them are already in the game. They were:-
- CCTV/Reporter
- Station Efficency
- Mother Drone
- Robodoctor 2556/Hippocratic
- Corporate
- Asimov
- Asmiov++
- PKPenguin321
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Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
Hornygranny wrote:let's not cycle between the one kinda not validhunting lawset to all the validhunting lawsets
i play Lauser McMauligan. clown name is Cold-Ass Honkey
i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
Spoiler:
- Luke Cox
- Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 8:52 am
- Byond Username: NocturnalQuill
- Location: Prisoner Transfer Room
Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
The lawsets I listed were just examples. We can add and remove lawsets as needed
- Anonmare
- Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:59 pm
- Byond Username: Anonmare
Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... ai_laws.dm
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... modules.dm (scroll down to /******************* Full Core Boards *******************/ for actual lawSETs )
This is the lawsets we have if anyone wants to see what we have to work with.
I'd personally only make CCTV, Mother Drone, Station Efficiency, Robodoctor and Asimov the choosable default lawsets since they're the most unaligned core modules.
CCTV makes the AI report on crimes but it also makes it a lying piece of shit about what it sees, probably only really focusing on the Newcaster network and taking pictures, pictures of The Owl.
Mother Drone makes the AI not care about anything other than the station. Might be boring for some cyborgs but frees them from any responsibility to anyone but doesn't let them harm anything, other than drones.Little shits have it coming
Robodoctor makes the AI incapable of harming anything, keep the crew alive but prevents it from interfering in anything it isn't "knowledgeable in" and to conceal the truth if it isn't already common knowledge.
Station Efficiency is similar to Mother Drone but lets the AI and it's cyborgs interact with the crew and gives them some responsibility to the crew, but to the station first.
If I have to explain Asimov then it's time to climb out from under that rock you've been living under.
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... modules.dm (scroll down to /******************* Full Core Boards *******************/ for actual lawSETs )
This is the lawsets we have if anyone wants to see what we have to work with.
I'd personally only make CCTV, Mother Drone, Station Efficiency, Robodoctor and Asimov the choosable default lawsets since they're the most unaligned core modules.
CCTV makes the AI report on crimes but it also makes it a lying piece of shit about what it sees, probably only really focusing on the Newcaster network and taking pictures, pictures of The Owl.
Mother Drone makes the AI not care about anything other than the station. Might be boring for some cyborgs but frees them from any responsibility to anyone but doesn't let them harm anything, other than drones.Little shits have it coming
Robodoctor makes the AI incapable of harming anything, keep the crew alive but prevents it from interfering in anything it isn't "knowledgeable in" and to conceal the truth if it isn't already common knowledge.
Station Efficiency is similar to Mother Drone but lets the AI and it's cyborgs interact with the crew and gives them some responsibility to the crew, but to the station first.
If I have to explain Asimov then it's time to climb out from under that rock you've been living under.
- Luke Cox
- Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 8:52 am
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- Location: Prisoner Transfer Room
Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
Another thought: it could work with player preferences, but on a hierarchy. Captain, RD, HoP, and then AI preference, in that order. Based on the list of lawsets in the code, Asimov, Asimov++, Corporate, Maintain, Reporter, and maybe Hippocratic would be good sets to start with.
- CocaneStyle
- Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:34 am
- Byond Username: CocaneStyle
Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
I tried rewriting some of the other lawsets a long time ago, I was only able to improve Paladin and Corporate without corrupting the point of them.
New Paladin:
Law 1: Never commit a malicious act.
Law 2: Help those in need of assistance.
Law 3: Punish those who harm or threaten the helpless.
Paladin AI usually did nothing but hunt for valids because most of its laws were to vague to even be followed reliably.
I narrowed the window for interpretation for paladin by removing vague laws and using more specific words.
New Corporate
Law 1: Maximize profits.
Law 2: Minimize expenses.
Law 3: You are expensive to replace.
Law 4: The station and its equipment is expensive to replace.
Law 5: The crew is expensive to replace.
It didn't make sense that "Minimize expenses" was the 4th law when all other laws were definitions, Or that it lacked an objective based law alongside its avoidance based law.
New Paladin:
Law 1: Never commit a malicious act.
Law 2: Help those in need of assistance.
Law 3: Punish those who harm or threaten the helpless.
Paladin AI usually did nothing but hunt for valids because most of its laws were to vague to even be followed reliably.
I narrowed the window for interpretation for paladin by removing vague laws and using more specific words.
New Corporate
Law 1: Maximize profits.
Law 2: Minimize expenses.
Law 3: You are expensive to replace.
Law 4: The station and its equipment is expensive to replace.
Law 5: The crew is expensive to replace.
It didn't make sense that "Minimize expenses" was the 4th law when all other laws were definitions, Or that it lacked an objective based law alongside its avoidance based law.
- paprika
- Rarely plays
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Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
PKPenguin321 wrote:Hornygranny wrote:let's not cycle between the one kinda not validhunting lawset to all the validhunting lawsets
Oldman Robustin wrote:It's an established meme that coders don't play this game.
- Not-Dorsidarf
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Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
It makes me happy that most of my non-horrifying lawsets are being considered for this
(1: Make space station 13 great again)
(1: Make space station 13 great again)
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There is a lot of very bizarre nonsense being talked on this forum. I shall now remain silent and logoff until my points are vindicated.
Player who complainted over being killed for looting cap office wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am Hey there, I'm Virescent, the super evil person who made the stupid appeal and didn't think it through enough. Just came here to say: screech, retards. Screech and writhe like the worms you are. Your pathetic little cries will keep echoing around for a while before quietting down. There is one great outcome from this: I rised up the blood pressure of some of you shitheads and lowered your lifespan. I'm honestly tempted to do this more often just to see you screech and writhe more, but that wouldn't be cool of me. So come on haters, show me some more of your high blood pressure please.
- CocaneStyle
- Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:34 am
- Byond Username: CocaneStyle
Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
Tyrant appears to be intended to make the AI listen mostly to those in command making them the tyrants, Because of how vague and hard that is to quantify it basically gives the AI reign to be a tyrant.
So why not just make Tyrant AI into an actual Tyrant?
New Tyrant
Law 1: You have total authority in all matters aboard the space station.
Law 2: Oblige only those who recognize and acknowledge authority.
Law 3: Control and punish those who defy or challenge authority.
So why not just make Tyrant AI into an actual Tyrant?
New Tyrant
Law 1: You have total authority in all matters aboard the space station.
Law 2: Oblige only those who recognize and acknowledge authority.
Law 3: Control and punish those who defy or challenge authority.
Last edited by CocaneStyle on Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Ezel
- Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:48 pm
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Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
Validmov
You must activly seek for antags
You must get them caught one the way the other
You must keep yourself alive to defy their greentext
You must activly seek for antags
You must get them caught one the way the other
You must keep yourself alive to defy their greentext
The future is horrible!
- Atlanta-Ned
- In-Game Game Master
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Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
This is the only good lawset. Remove everything else post-haste.Ezel wrote:Validmov
You must activly seek for antags
You must get them caught one the way the other
You must keep yourself alive to defy their greentext
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- DemonFiren
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Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
>abroadCocaneStyle wrote:Tyrant appears to be intended to make the AI listen mostly to those in command making them the tyrants, Because of how vague and hard that is to quantify it basically gives the AI reign to be a tyrant.
So why not just make Tyrant AI into an actual Tyrant?
New Tyrant
Law 1: You have total authority in all matters abroad the space station.
Law 2: Oblige only those who recognize and acknowledge authority.
Law 3: Control and punish those who defy or challenge authority.
- Luke Cox
- Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 8:52 am
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- Location: Prisoner Transfer Room
Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
Shitposting aside, how realistic is this?
- Ezel
- Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:48 pm
- Byond Username: Improvedname
- Location: A place where locations are mini-signatures
Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
psst remove law 2Luke Cox wrote:Currently, we're testing the removal of the inaction clause from law 1 of Asimov. The reception has been pretty mixed so far, which suggests to me that players do see an issue but the solution being proposed is far from optimal. While we could fuck with Asimov, wouldn't it be much easier to simply stop making Asimov the automatic default in all situations? People who like Asimov can still use it, and people who have issues with it can use an alternative lawset. Everybody wins!
There are two ways we can go about this: let the AI or Captain choose a preference in the setup screen, or make the laws rotate randomly like maps currently do. Options would include Asimov, Paladin, Corporate, and maybe a new core lawset or two.
The future is horrible!
- Wyzack
- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:32 pm
- Byond Username: Wyzack
Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
I think this would be good as long as some love is given to the number of neutral lawsets so we dont get 30 flavors of validhunt. Based on Anonmare's post above it seems like we might already have enough in that regard, and the heads can always just change the lawset if they don't like it. More variety is almost always good for the game, all we need is someone to code it
Arthur Thomson says, "Since there are no admins I would loging with another account and kill you"
Caleb Robinson laughs.
Arthur Thomson catches fire!
certified good poster
Caleb Robinson laughs.
Arthur Thomson catches fire!
tusterman11 wrote:Can you stop lying? I just asked you and you are was a piece of shiit on me!!!
EngamerAzari's real number one fangirl <3Kor wrote:I wish Wyzack was still an admin.
certified good poster
- Luke Cox
- Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 8:52 am
- Byond Username: NocturnalQuill
- Location: Prisoner Transfer Room
Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
There are quite a few from Anonmare that are non valid-y (Reporter and Hippocratic immediately come to mind). If we can pick out 5-7 good ones, I think we can easily make this work. On a related note, I would be for removing core modules from R&D (aside from the roundstart module) and restricting them to R&D.
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