[Saegrimr]John Peppercorn - Don't kill liggers?

[Fourty2]

Byond account and character name:Fourty2 -- John Peppercorn

Banning admin: Saegrimr

Ban type (What are you banned from?): AI, Cyborg

Ban reason and length: Banned from AI, Cyborg - We're going to have this silicon ban here until you understand asimov and not play this "SO I CAN KILL LIZARDS WHENEVER I WANT HUH?" game.

Time ban was placed (including time zone): 20:05:00 (GMT -6) [rough estimate, give or take 1 or 2 minutes.]

Your side of the story:
I was playing as a pAI for Angelina Pershing, driving her mulebot, A random borg came up and started shooting the mulebot, I tried to escape, and the AI activated fire alarms trapping Angelina and I, she got off of the mulebot to repair it, and the borg bashed, flashed, and drug her into space.

I ahelped the issue, saying a random borg just killed a ligger, to which saegrimr replied: "Are lizards Human?" Now, when a staff member answers my question with a question, I tend to get a bit agitated, as that's not doing their duty in my eyes which is to help players in a timely manner, and not suggest in a veiled way that they go look for the information themselves.

Being agitated, I replied "Sorry, thought I got an Admin, not a question box. But since lizards are valid, I'll just kill any lizard I see as a borg." Being sarcastic, and pointing out the flaw in the logic of his argument/question/not-answer. He immediately replies, "Should I just silicon ban you now to prevent problems in the future?". I was a bit taken back at his wanton waving of his admin stick rather than confronting the situation in a regular manner. I asked, "How is one lizard valid, but not another?".

No reply, i did however get jobbanned from AI/silicon, with the reply through adminhelp "You asked for it". This didn't resolve the situation or question at all, simply escalated because of one admin's perceived superiority and perception that their time is more important than anyone else's. (especially when there is a legitimate conversation taking place that an admin is too lazy to take part in)

Why you think you should be unbanned:
I didn't do anything wrong as a Silicon, and have not, during the multiple rounds I have played silicon.
When an admin is able to ban someone for asking a question about a job, what's the point of going to admins for help anymore?
This made me feel a bit ostracized from the community, as when I commented on the unprofessional nature of his tone, Him and his friends started mocking me about suggesting an admin should be professional, to which I replied, "Just because it's a volunteer position, doesn't mean you shouldn't take it professionally."

[Saegrimr]

I think it resolved the situation just fine. I don't have to sit there and coddle you on the most basic of ASIMOV, and I also don't have to worry about you running off on a genocide spree as a silicon because you're upset that your 100% always valid ash lizard friend got dunked by a borg.

Don't tell me you're going to blatantly break server rules if you aren't expecting me to do something about it.

[Fourty2]

It was pretty obvious that I was simply being sarcastic, as implied by my follow up questions. You deciding you don't have time to answer a question should not validate a permanent jobban.

[Saegrimr]

So then you understand now that a lizard harming, have harmed before, or shows the intent to harm a human means the silicons are doing to destroy him?
You understand that lizards are basically the lowest life form on the station, that nobody should care about, least of all silicons who have laws that state that they are only to prevent humans from harm and obey human commands?
And you understand that killing them without a good reason like above is against server rule 1?

Or that you as a pAI have even less freedom than all of the above?

[Fourty2]

I do understand that Killing them without a good reason is against server rule 1. And that pAIs are basically PDA's with brains.

[Saegrimr]

Great, so we haven't reached a conclusion here yet.

[Fourty2]

How So? pAIs have to follow the orders of their masters (directives given by masters) correct?

[TheWulfe]

Christ, just give Fourty context rather than giving sardonic and edgy comments. You did the 'answer a question with a question' - which is something my mama always told me not to do, don't know about yours - and got shocked someone can get tilted from it.

Saegrimr, you explained general rulesets (Humans over lizard life, Lizards don't fall under human Asimov, etc) without even talking about the actual scenario and its context, which could have (but didn't) fall under Rule 1 of 'Don't be a dick' in a player 'randomly' murdering 'some' lizard.
_______________________________________________

The context was an Ashwalker Invasion, in which a generally hostile lizard group from the Lavalands may wind up attacking the crew on the station itself. Which in this round, did wind up happening. Earlier fights and battles ensued which wound up with multiple crewmembers harmed or killed, regardless of who was the aggressor.

You probably wound up the pAI of a lizard, probably a lavaland Ashwalker, after the fact of the early attacks by the Ashwalker lizards. The lizard you were the pAI of probably didn't do any violent acts himself, but his earlier friends definitely did. Since the Ashwalkers are basically a team or faction, that pretty much made your lizard master just as apart of those original killings as his teammates even if he flat out spawned later than them. In fact, it's better to consider the Ashwalker lizards a sort of pseudo-antagonist group because of the violence that usually happens with them.

Obviously an AI can't just randomly kill a bunch of lizards for no reason. The reason established in this round was basically 'There was an invasion of nonhuman Ashwalker lizards murdering the crew, severely going against my law of preventing harm coming to humans. The best way to prevent that within my laws is to kill the Ashwalker lizards.'

[Saegrimr]

There doesn't need to be any specific context when it involves hostile lizards getting dunked by silicons. How is this so hard to understand?

Also ashwalkers are 100% always valid. You don't even need an excuse to kill them, just them existing is a problem you can and should solve with your bare hands.

[Saegrimr]

There doesn't need to be any specific context when it involves hostile lizards getting dunked by silicons. How is this so hard to understand?

1: Is it nonhuman
2: Is it hostile to a human
3: REMOVE

[Archie700]

Did Fourty2 even know what ash walkers were?

[Alex Crimson]

There doesn't need to be any specific context when it involves hostile lizards getting dunked by silicons. How is this so hard to understand?

1: Is it nonhuman
2: Is it hostile to a human
3: REMOVE

And you are right, but obviously this player was confused. Rather than escalate the issue with your poor attitude, you couldve taken the time to explain the context, and how the borg was within the rules to kill the Lizard.

He knows what Asimov is, he knows that Lizards are valid when they do harm, but from his experience, his Lizard master caused no harm so he Adminhelped to get some clarification. This is what im seeing, and if its what happened then i think you acted rather unprofessionally.

[starmute]

PAS EDIT: Stuff below is the only part relevant. leaving it rather than just deleting the whole post


https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Admin_Conduct

Read the admin codes of conduct



Maintain professional conduct both in game and outside of the game. It is expected that you take the position seriously. This doesn't mean you can't talk casually to the playerbase, but remain professional on the forums, as well as on other Space Station 13 communities."

That's literally what I said. I also stated you have a bad habbit of breaking this. I also stated you could only ban this person on a rule 0 violation, which is also true. Frankly you can't take criticism.

[Saegrimr]

That's great, cultist-chan. But what does this have to do with silicons and liggers?

[starmute]

Sure this is my last post.. My point is this. Sagrimr made a law 0 ban due to the fact that he can't act professionally or be bothered to act like a admin and explain things to the player, or simply tell the player "it's resolved."

That's my last post on the subject.

[Cik]

it is maybe a tad harsh.

i'd rather sillicon bans be overharsh though, because frankly i don't like when under-experienced sillicons bias the community against me and my beautiful laws

he can always appeal later when he understands laws and get unb&

[Fourty2]

So, this thread went off the rails a little bit. Yes, I understand I shouldn't kill every lizard I see( or any lizard really without good reason ), and yes, I understand ash lizards are always 100% valid, and yes I understand that pAI's have to follow the directives set forth by their masters.

[Zilenan91]

So was the borg killing an ashwalker or a lizard who wasn't an ashwalker? If it wasn't an ashwalker that sounds like it was just randomly killing someone.

[Fourty2]

It was an ash walker, I just don't understand how a borg at first glance can tell the difference. Which is a question I was getting to before I was banned.

[Saegrimr]

Because it was a lizard in a situation where humans were in danger. Welcome to ASIMOV.

Even better it was a lizard trying to disguise with a human name, because that isn't suspicious at all either.

[Zilenan91]

If it was a station lizard it wouldn't have been okay but yeah ashwalkers always have this stripe on their tail and distinctive names so it could probably easily tell what the lizard was.

[ohnopigeons]

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Admin_Conduct

Read the admin codes of conduct



Maintain professional conduct both in game and outside of the game. It is expected that you take the position seriously. This doesn't mean you can't talk casually to the playerbase, but remain professional on the forums, as well as on other Space Station 13 communities."

That's literally what I said. I also stated you have a bad habbit of breaking this. I also stated you could only ban this person on a rule 0 violation, which is also true. Frankly you can't take criticism.

Sure this is my last post.. My point is this. Sagrimr made a law 0 ban due to the fact that he can't act professionally or be bothered to act like a admin and explain things to the player, or simply tell the player "it's resolved."

That's my last post on the subject.

Fourty2 was banned for not understanding silicon policy, not a rule 0 violation/ban.

In addition Saeg's behavior as an admin is not relevant to this ban appeal as an admin complaint was made over this exact issue and was closed, hence resolved.

[Fourty2]

Because it was a lizard in a situation where humans were in danger. Welcome to ASIMOV.

Even better it was a lizard trying to disguise with a human name, because that isn't suspicious at all either.

I've no problem with that. I'm just wondering how they tell lizards from ash walkers?

[Zilenan91]

ashwalkers always have stripes on their tail and distinctive names.

[Saegrimr]

Oh jesus, this gets even better the more log diving I do.

Literally everybody knows theres ash liggers running around.
The AI has issued a lockdown on cargo to evacuate all humans due to hostile lizards.
Security went and got hulk and various genetic powers to go dunk some ashwalker nests because it was extended and they were fucking bored.
The borg in question that killed OP's friend, a miner borg, had orders to go destroy the nest.
Somewhere in the middle of all this, an anti-mulebot ERT squad was sent to deal with rampaging mulebots.

Even if he was a normal station lizard, there was no way he was going to live though that.

[Screemonster]

the tl;dr is that AIs and borgs can't just dunk lizards FNR under rule 1, but as soon as they have any reason whatsoever the dunking can commence, and just 'cause you personally don't know what the reason is doesn't mean there isn't one.

[Fourty2]

the tl;dr is that AIs and borgs can't just dunk lizards FNR under rule 1, but as soon as they have any reason whatsoever the dunking can commence, and just 'cause you personally don't know what the reason is doesn't mean there isn't one.

Thank you. I don't know why it took 30 posts to get to this explanation.

[onleavedontatme]

the tl;dr is that AIs and borgs can't just dunk lizards FNR under rule 1, but as soon as they have any reason whatsoever the dunking can commence, and just 'cause you personally don't know what the reason is doesn't mean there isn't one.

I'm not sure why it took a dumb asay slapfight, 2 threads, and a ban when saying this at the start would have cleared up the whole thing instead of a contest to out snark one another.

That being said "I guess I can just kill whoever I want!" is the surest way to to piss admins off I know of, please don't do that Fourty2.

If you understand and agree to follow the (now hopefully clarified) rules and not to respond to confusion with LOL TIME TO KILL EVERYONE THEN, I think this ban can probably be lifted and we can all pretend this didnt happen.

[Saegrimr]

If you understand and agree to follow the (now hopefully clarified) rules and not to respond to confusion with LOL TIME TO KILL EVERYONE THEN, I think this ban can probably be lifted and we can all pretend this didnt happen.

Basically what i'm shooting for here, yeah.

[MrEousTranger]

You understand that lizards are basically the lowest life form on the station, that nobody should care about

Flys.

[Bolien]

You understand that lizards are basically the lowest life form on the station, that nobody should care about

Flys.

Catgirls.

[DemonFiren]

You understand that lizards are basically the lowest life form on the station, that nobody should care about

Flys.

Catgirls.

Assistants.

[Saegrimr]

You understand that lizards are basically the lowest life form on the station, that nobody should care about

Flys.

Fuck, at least flies know their place as literal vomit-sucking scum.

Catgirls.

Purrbation just doesn't have the same effect anymore ever since people can willingly choose it. Sad times for us all.

Assistants.

Unfortunately still human, so they command higher authority from silicons.

[Ryahask]

This seems like the result of a clash of personalities and not any genuine rule breaking. Sarcasm tends to be a poor choice when dealing with admins, or positions of authority in general, but, based on what I've read, I don't believe Saegrimr handled the situation well either. Each made mistakes in their interaction with the other.

I think the ideal response to the original ahelp would've been something along the lines of:

'x' was an Ash Walker, who are station antagonists, and they've been perpetuating a great deal of violence this shift. Asimov holds the lives of Humans above Lizards and hostile Lizards are always legitimate targets.

That said, Fourty2 you really shouldn't be sarcastic with admins. They tend not to take it well for a wide variety of reasons.

[Alipheese]

Did anyone notice the "i was a pAI" part? pAI's have a different ruleset than borgs and ai's. pAI's actually dont even have asimov. They have 1 law. Serve your master. And there has been previous incidents with pAI doing what their master told them which resulted in the person owning the pAI to get in trouble. Thus the master of this pAI is responsible.
Just what my take is.

[Fourty2]

the tl;dr is that AIs and borgs can't just dunk lizards FNR under rule 1, but as soon as they have any reason whatsoever the dunking can commence, and just 'cause you personally don't know what the reason is doesn't mean there isn't one.

I'm not sure why it took a dumb asay slapfight, 2 threads, and a ban when saying this at the start would have cleared up the whole thing instead of a contest to out snark one another.

That being said "I guess I can just kill whoever I want!" is the surest way to to piss admins off I know of, please don't do that Fourty2.

If you understand and agree to follow the (now hopefully clarified) rules and not to respond to confusion with LOL TIME TO KILL EVERYONE THEN, I think this ban can probably be lifted and we can all pretend this didnt happen.

Fair enough I'll keep in mind also to count to 10 before replying to anything that may have upset me. Cheers, and sorry for the confusion once again.

[Screemonster]

Did anyone notice the "i was a pAI" part? pAI's have a different ruleset than borgs and ai's. pAI's actually dont even have asimov. They have 1 law. Serve your master. And there has been previous incidents with pAI doing what their master told them which resulted in the person owning the pAI to get in trouble. Thus the master of this pAI is responsible.
Just what my take is.

It's not the pAI's laws that are being questioned, the pAI's master was a lizard, and a borg, an actual borg, came out of seemingly nowhere and attacked. That's what he's questioning.

[Fourty2]

Did anyone notice the "i was a pAI" part? pAI's have a different ruleset than borgs and ai's. pAI's actually dont even have asimov. They have 1 law. Serve your master. And there has been previous incidents with pAI doing what their master told them which resulted in the person owning the pAI to get in trouble. Thus the master of this pAI is responsible.
Just what my take is.

It's not the pAI's laws that are being questioned, the pAI's master was a lizard, and a borg, an actual borg, came out of seemingly nowhere and attacked. That's what he's questioning.

Essentially, but It's all cleared up now thankfully. Thanks again Kor.

[lzimann]

With everything cleared up and the ban lifted, it's safe to assume that we are done here.