There is. I rarely have to do with greytide at all while playing security.
In fact I would say a server culture has developed where greytide is seen as a bannable offence and a form of "being a shitter".
The fact is that greytide makes things interesting. Both for security and the tide.
A server culture has also developed where security either doesn't care about your crime, or outright perma's/ executes you.
I think at the core of this is the severity with which greytide and escalation from greytide (labeling such acts as banbaiting) are currently treated by the admin team.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm
The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
I think what people don't realise is that, although conflict is one way to create fun, it's also not the only way. You can have fun in extended rounds where nobody self-antags and tides... but there's no conflict in sight.
whomst'd've'ly would possibly think that extended rounds are currently fun, and that just because conflict isn't the only way to make fun, it shouldn't exist most of the time?
so it turns out I have proven my illiteracy once a-fucking-gain and didn't read nightingale's post properly
I wouldn't be in favour of killing all non antag crime, then sec is just going to be entirely built around validhunting - that would be the only thing left to do
Now I'm reading my own post to see if I came across wrong. I'm not saying "don't do crime" at all. I'm saying, "don't do crime that affects other people if you don't have a good reason for it". And yes, that means security focuses more on validhunting, because they're less distracted by the tide...
... so we make security chill out a bit as well, i.e. "don't gun someone down just for having a syndie balloon" and the likes. But then antags come back and shoot up Security...
... so we make antags chill out a bit as well, i.e. "don't go postal, actually put some creativity into your schemes".
See it like a triangle, with a force at each side; the 'tide, the antags, and Security. Limiting one will make the other two stronger in comparison, buffing one will make the other two weaker in comparison. I'm suggesting a global "hakuna your matatas" across the whole triangle.
TheNightingale wrote:Now I'm reading my own post to see if I came across wrong. I'm not saying "don't do crime" at all. I'm saying, "don't do crime that affects other people if you don't have a good reason for it". And yes, that means security focuses more on validhunting, because they're less distracted by the tide...
... so we make security chill out a bit as well, i.e. "don't gun someone down just for having a syndie balloon" and the likes. But then antags come back and shoot up Security...
... so we make antags chill out a bit as well, i.e. "don't go postal, actually put some creativity into your schemes".
See it like a triangle, with a force at each side; the 'tide, the antags, and Security. Limiting one will make the other two stronger in comparison, buffing one will make the other two weaker in comparison. I'm suggesting a global "hakuna your matatas" across the whole triangle.
I still have trouble seeing this happen on /tg/, unfortunately
Oh, it's never going to happen on /tg/, valids are too ingrained in our culture. I just think it'd be nice if it did. Were we supposed to be realistic?
TheNightingale wrote:Oh, it's never going to happen on /tg/, valids are too ingrained in our culture. I just think it'd be nice if it did. Were we supposed to be realistic?
Well, I assumed we were considering actual ideas since it's the policy subforum, but I guess there's nothing saying you can't engage in hypotheticals
I mean it's not a realistic aim, because our culture will always revolve around "can I kill it?". I'd like it if everyone calmed down a little, and talked more shot less, but that's not going to happen any time soon, because you'd have to change the whole triangle to keep it fair.
I can't remember which server it was that had the guide to space law specifically draw a hard red line across it that stated that crimes below that line were off-limits to non-antagonists, and literally my first thought was "wow, you've just created a hard-line antag-detector, anyone doing these things is either definitely an antag or they're getting banned".
I mean if you catch a guy emagging into places and find a revolver in his bag it's pretty likely that he's an antag but it's still not an absolute tell if the possibility exists that they dunked an antag themselves and took their stuff.
ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:I'm saying your view is skewed if you think realism/rp is equivalent to people not committing any crime because they aren't "the bad guys".
If anyone can do anything, why even have antags at all? Why not just let everyone do what they want, and solve it IC? If we're going for maximum realism, anyone and everyone can be "the bad guys" if they think they can get away with it.
ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:I'm saying your view is skewed if you think realism/rp is equivalent to people not committing any crime because they aren't "the bad guys".
If anyone can do anything, why even have antags at all? Why not just let everyone do what they want, and solve it IC? If we're going for maximum realism, anyone and everyone can be "the bad guys" if they think they can get away with it.
In order to justifiably commit non antag crime, you need a motivation that makes* sense IC (that can't be "my character is a crazy murderer"). The only difference between an antag and a non antag is that antags don't have to follow that guideline, they can do the worst possible crimes without any semblance of motivation.
ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:I'm saying your view is skewed if you think realism/rp is equivalent to people not committing any crime because they aren't "the bad guys".
If anyone can do anything, why even have antags at all? Why not just let everyone do what they want, and solve it IC? If we're going for maximum realism, anyone and everyone can be "the bad guys" if they think they can get away with it.
This is actually my real idealized but not ever possible vision for the game. What if we could all be trusted to only kill each other or murder each other or rob from each other in ways that are fun for the victims and tell an interesting story?
Arthur Thomson says, "Since there are no admins I would loging with another account and kill you"
Caleb Robinson laughs.
Arthur Thomson catches fire!
tusterman11 wrote:Can you stop lying? I just asked you and you are was a piece of shiit on me!!!
Kor wrote:I wish Wyzack was still an admin.
EngamerAzari's real number one fangirl <3
certified good poster
ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:I'm saying your view is skewed if you think realism/rp is equivalent to people not committing any crime because they aren't "the bad guys".
If anyone can do anything, why even have antags at all? Why not just let everyone do what they want, and solve it IC? If we're going for maximum realism, anyone and everyone can be "the bad guys" if they think they can get away with it.
This is actually my real idealized but not ever possible vision for the game. What if we could all be trusted to only kill each other or murder each other or rob from each other in ways that are fun for the victims and tell an interesting story?
We kinda had a test of something like this when TLE made a brief return several years ago, on a separate 3rd server called Sigyn. This was pretty much the idea for the rules and... well, it was pretty much just pure anarchy. It mostly just provoked grief instead of actual interesting situations. There has to be a line drawn somewhere or the game just kinda stops functioning.
Serious crimes have a 1 minute minimum in brig because it takes time to drag them there & lock up in brig. Warnings & letting them go does nothing and causing a physical punishment of hitting them with harm intent does nothing but draw negative attention from & and crew. So really there's a gaping hole in enforcing non-antag/low level IC crime.
> In the real world we hurt their pocket with fines, but in our communist society we can't. Unless we start to reason that we take something of value attributed to compensate the crime and confiscate the illegal items (vulgaris/intoxicants are illegal in space law) to be sold on or destroyed.
> Because only serious crime exists, officers over-prepare and then start to 'valid hunt' roaming and putting themselves at risk which is what Kor previously said in the thread as being something they shouldn't be doing & wouldn't gain anything from doing. (I have a idea to fix security but saving it for later) instead they should€ be milling about in reasonable groups RP'ing or finding something non-combative to do. This would lower the job tension they feel and make them feel less like security 'drones' replaying memories of sec-borgs seeking and destroying with strong equipment and a lot more like human players
We have a entire space law rulebook with "helpful suggestions" for minor offences & major offences divided. Obviously it will never be implemented into the solid rules but taking that as your IC advice is the best you've got as wardens, simple lowpop officers, captains & HOS's just make up their own punishments most of the time because they don't read space law, leading to miscarriages of justice which the lawyer can chase to get them off scott free.
> Also fuck that job, lawyer doesn't argue a case with evidence ever, why are they even there beside to be a annoying antag & sec-access lootdrop
From what I remember people used to play lawyer to have fun doing the whole gimmick, but yeah nowadays I've never seen a lawyer in their office/anywhere near the brig or courtroom
You have a point about there being nothing between "DON'T DO THAT AGAIN" and brigging, though, but I'm not sure what could be done to fix that
Qbopper wrote:From what I remember people used to play lawyer to have fun doing the whole gimmick, but yeah nowadays I've never seen a lawyer in their office/anywhere near the brig or courtroom
You have a point about there being nothing between "DON'T DO THAT AGAIN" and brigging, though, but I'm not sure what could be done to fix that
Maybe its just the hours I've been on, but I've seen two captain facilitated trials in the last week. One I even had to mail in an extra lawyer at the captain's request.
Qbopper wrote:From what I remember people used to play lawyer to have fun doing the whole gimmick, but yeah nowadays I've never seen a lawyer in their office/anywhere near the brig or courtroom
You have a point about there being nothing between "DON'T DO THAT AGAIN" and brigging, though, but I'm not sure what could be done to fix that
Maybe its just the hours I've been on, but I've seen two captain facilitated trials in the last week. One I even had to mail in an extra lawyer at the captain's request.
Don't give it praise, its disgusting the captain had to abandon their job of capital priority when the HOS who has only shared roles with other sec staff could and should have done it as 'authority'. Rare to see the courtroom being used however, was a admin involved to force the meme?
> Between previously mentioned near suicidal solo roaming just to slip on water and get dunked, and protecting brig the HOS has no functional purpose but to mill about their own office, the command bridge & staff-room, all the actually endorsed activites they do are IA related so i don't see why you couldn't just make the HOS a statesman commissioner rather than the leader of a military corps which is what they look like at the moment (more like the guy on the ROBUST plaque, dressed in average plain clothes)
The courtrooms are a huge waste of space - and nothing that a prisoner can do that is petty enough to earn a few minutes jail sentence is below a captial crime which is perma or death. Courtroom is used (in principle) for revision of perma sentences rather than pro-action, but are useless because we ignore perma-inmates or they go braindead shortly after being caught and incarcerated.
Qbopper wrote:From what I remember people used to play lawyer to have fun doing the whole gimmick, but yeah nowadays I've never seen a lawyer in their office/anywhere near the brig or courtroom
You have a point about there being nothing between "DON'T DO THAT AGAIN" and brigging, though, but I'm not sure what could be done to fix that
Maybe its just the hours I've been on, but I've seen two captain facilitated trials in the last week. One I even had to mail in an extra lawyer at the captain's request.
Damn, I stand corrected, that's cool
Out of curiosity, what server/population size?
Both were in 30+pop. The one requiring an off-station "Centcomm Appointed Lawyer" was a trial over the relative merits of Skub. The AI presided over the trial while the prosecution attempted to construct a case that skub is really just a can of meth. Cutlists attacked and the captain took his lawyer (after winning the case for skub being pretty cool) and escaped on the shuttle while declaring that they're going to sue the cult.
The other was a group of 3 crew that had been running around causing trouble. Two assistants and a mime. That trial ran for quite a while withe the captain/HoS/Warden all involved with two lawyers. That one got attacked by nukeops though I don't remember the resolution. Detective was running around tossing scanner printouts around as evidence and the whole 9 yards.
FantasticFwoosh wrote:Don't give it praise, its disgusting the captain had to abandon their job of capital priority when the HOS who has only shared roles with other sec staff could and should have done it as 'authority'. Rare to see the courtroom being used however, was a admin involved to force the meme?
Both trials happened naturally and without admin intervention but one did get (player requested) admin assistance. Several command roles were involved in each of the trials and the players rather enjoyed the process. Each one drew a small audience and neither even got bombed.
I hate to say it but as a chef sometimes I try to sneak tools put in bread into a perma brig for a prisoner to break out if I like them. For example the clown.
starmute wrote:I hate to say it but as a chef sometimes I try to sneak tools put in bread into a perma brig for a prisoner to break out if I like them. For example the clown.
This is cool and interesting and if you get in trouble for it I will defend you to my dying breath
starmute wrote:I hate to say it but as a chef sometimes I try to sneak tools put in bread into a perma brig for a prisoner to break out if I like them. For example the clown.
This is cool and interesting and if you get in trouble for it I will defend you to my dying breath
starmute wrote:I hate to say it but as a chef sometimes I try to sneak tools put in bread into a perma brig for a prisoner to break out if I like them. For example the clown.
This is cool and interesting and if you get in trouble for it I will defend you to my dying breath
Unless you do something really dumb
Can you even hide a supermatter sword in bread?
No. There seems to be only certain items you can hide. I don't know what size but it seems random (IE you can hide a welder, a wrench, but not a welding helmet). The easiest thing to hide is a emag.
The real fine line with IC crime is the admins not security. After having medbay raided by a butthurt i sprayed half of can of space lube on the mainhall outside of medbay and got boinked over it, thats a lot more worrying than some shithead sec officer putting me in a cell for 10 minutes.
Swagbringer wrote:The real fine line with IC crime is the admins not security. After having medbay raided by a butthurt i sprayed half of can of space lube on the mainhall outside of medbay and got boinked over it, thats a lot more worrying than some shithead sec officer putting me in a cell for 10 minutes.
Depends on the admin, earlier this day Silencio stole the spare, then slipped me as detective, cuffed me, shot me with my own gun, then fed me enough booze to nearly kill me, stripped me and left me cuffed and knocked out...during an ops round as a non antag.
Swagbringer wrote:The real fine line with IC crime is the admins not security. After having medbay raided by a butthurt i sprayed half of can of space lube on the mainhall outside of medbay and got boinked over it, thats a lot more worrying than some shithead sec officer putting me in a cell for 10 minutes.
Depends on the admin, earlier this day Silencio stole the spare, then slipped me as detective, cuffed me, shot me with my own gun, then fed me enough booze to nearly kill me, stripped me and left me cuffed and knocked out...during an ops round as a non antag.
Swagbringer wrote:The real fine line with IC crime is the admins not security. After having medbay raided by a butthurt i sprayed half of can of space lube on the mainhall outside of medbay and got boinked over it, thats a lot more worrying than some shithead sec officer putting me in a cell for 10 minutes.
Depends on the admin, earlier this day Silencio stole the spare, then slipped me as detective, cuffed me, shot me with my own gun, then fed me enough booze to nearly kill me, stripped me and left me cuffed and knocked out...during an ops round as a non antag.
cedarbridge wrote:Man, the ban requests forum is just creeping in everywhere these days.
Nah. Was part of his meme so it's cool.
My point was that the issue of IC criminality is centred on admins not nuking it,and there not being a united definition of IC issues.
I like IC because I play det, so it'sfun to do crime scenes, and interviews.
> Ahelp shitty HOS roundstart breaking into the Captains office to take the spare ID by fireaxing & lasering down the door, into scrap metal, shooting open the display case, stealing the command button the runing to cargo. Im flabbergastered.
Runs around with autorifle & additional ammo they metasold all the cargo boxes for then invited the QM to become a head. Kevinz (trial) says it's "fine" and that he's not breaking the rules by metagaming this hard in the opening seconds of the round.
> HOS Gets killed with own secrifle gun later in the round and endangers the station with his low IC captial crime proceeds & actions, Kevin the trialmin slams IC button on my ahelp basically me saying to him "I told you this would happen" refusing to give a response.
So yeah, little IC crime doesn't matter to admins who turn a blind eye. The AI by protocol can't metagame that hard so why should a head? I was observing the whole round.
FantasticFwoosh wrote:> Ahelp shitty HOS roundstart breaking into the Captains office to take the spare ID by fireaxing & lasering down the door, into scrap metal, shooting open the display case, stealing the command button the runing to cargo. Im flabbergastered.
Runs around with autorifle & additional ammo they metasold all the cargo boxes for then invited the QM to become a head. Kevinz (trial) says it's "fine" and that he's not breaking the rules by metagaming this hard in the opening seconds of the round.
> HOS Gets killed with own secrifle gun later in the round and endangers the station with his low IC captial crime proceeds & actions, Kevin the trialmin slams IC button on my ahelp basically me saying to him "I told you this would happen" refusing to give a response.
So yeah, little IC crime doesn't matter to admins who turn a blind eye. The AI by protocol can't metagame that hard so why should a head? I was observing the whole round.
If there's no captain/hop, another head should get the spare/disk. The HoS is the best option for that, and incidentally they also have the power to assume and hold captainship. Once they're captain they can do whatever they want with promotions and station resources. How is this remotely metagaming?
There was a HOP actively there at the same time. The HOS just overruled them but didn't ask the HOP to atleast do it legitimately, causing property damage (a entire door dividing captains office & the bridge)
> By overruled i mean didn't acknowledge their presence at all, chain of command but could alteast not be a dick and lead to the forseeable series of events of being a pinata drop and giving all the station on a plate. Dropping ID, two antique guns, unlimited access to the station, a very good security suit, and multiple rounds of a projectile rifle ammo & said security rifle.
If the ID and disk were still in the captain's office it means the HoP wasn't doing his duty which is to immediately secure them at roundstart if there is no captain. The HoS' job isn't to school the HoP about their most basic duties, they're either doing them, or the HoS is free to do them in their place
Trial admin defended a entire tirade of minor crime with big repercussions for no reason other than ("Its not in my non-public admin policy rulebook, and when questioned im going to state "Its not in the rules for me to do anything about it") Im starting to think we should revoke the IC button altogether as it dumbs down intelligent reasoning that people can find fault with in favor of blanket statements.
Stealing half of the stations objective items, breaking & entering (instead of just asking the HOP to open the door) to loot the captains locker afterwards are reasonably capital crimes if the HOS was not a head to demote said crime into minor IC crime. Without strict policy we cannot enforce this like the bannable offences in AI's locking thier cores a few moments into the beginning of a round, but there was a protocol that was not followed and the HOS abused the damage systems strongarm & bypass security measures. Station suffered for it and FINAL BOSS, culture and metagaming lives on.
Its beyond jokeworthy that admins have such shrouded mannerism that are this heavily biased. You can laugh at how zealous CM admins and other servers are, but they follow policy down to the teeth and strict bans have meant that...
> No shitty ulterior motive cliques (aggressively implementing furries in code/forcing memes, racial - metafriends like groups of lizards) have any presence in the staff or server culture unless they are beneficial to the server objectives.
> Static toxic players likely responsible for minor & large scale IC crime or commiting perjury of responsible admin action leave and get banned/purged from staff
> Admins free to give discretion, but follow the defined rulebook to a tee unless head authority say otherwise, not when nobody is looking in lowpop
Back on topic, its clear that with PR's over time, security is not fit to deal with minor IC crime adequately as it is only geared to deal with crimes for the purpose of the cells in timed arrests. Security & admins need more direction on what to do and how to react to minor crime, and the adequate level when minor crime stacks up into a larger offence. (vigilantism for example, how much self defence is too much defence before it becomes posession of a offensive weapon)
> Pro tip to get started in not causing so much low IC crime, stop glorifying low IC crime
Swagbringer wrote:The real fine line with IC crime is the admins not security. After having medbay raided by a butthurt i sprayed half of can of space lube on the mainhall outside of medbay and got boinked over it, thats a lot more worrying than some shithead sec officer putting me in a cell for 10 minutes.
Depends on the admin, earlier this day Silencio stole the spare, then slipped me as detective, cuffed me, shot me with my own gun, then fed me enough booze to nearly kill me, stripped me and left me cuffed and knocked out...during an ops round as a non antag.
This thread & sever culture to crime in a nutshell.
[youtube]L397TWLwrUU[/youtube]
Just a shapeless amalgamation of unhelpful grief, that the current system cannot break the cycle of and since going public, we've just been sweeping in more pubbies that inflate and irritate the problem. Clowns dont tell jokes, mimes dont mime, assistants don't assist, chaplains are nutjobs (technically in description) etc.
People banned from hippie/cm wherever else come here because we're lenient to shittery.
So an admin then. If you think an admin during their trial period made a wrong decision you should make a complaint in the appropriate area instead of hiding it in a wall of text in the policy section.
Last edited by cedarbridge on Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Screemonster wrote:then post it in the feedback thread if you're gonna be this buttblasted about something that happened in a round you weren't even playing
You cannot link specific issues there, stop trying to bait me into getting myself banned or posts removed with warning. Edit - Also i don't play because I hope that this issue with server culture/policy like the one represented with this thread are hopefully resolved at a point and therefore have turned off all my antag settings and detached myself from active direct involvement with the round i am either spectating or taking a very out the way minor role in.
cedarbridge wrote:
FantasticFwoosh wrote:A admin undergoing a trial period, without supervision during low pop at the time.
Yes, that's the difference between a trialmin and an admin candidate. The only reason you bring up their trial status is to poison the well.
I am making a point of their inexperience, and that they were left alone to make this judgement, rather than having yourself with them (you were there earlier) to confer if they were in doubt and solidify what independent rulings he makes. A full/head admin can have as much bias on low IC crime as any other, but trial admins are perceived as impressionable by inexperience, and more closely based in a player mindset rather than a abstract admin one due to their transitional phase of holding the rungs of power but not steering from the saddle.
It isn't minor IC crime when a head does it. The time it took for the HoS to gear up, laser down the door, laser down the case, loot the room, was more than enough for the roundstart HoP to secure the items. But they didn't, so the HoS was more than justified in claiming captainship for themselves. A fast-reacting, armed, armoured captain is better for the station than a weak and slow bureaucrat who couldn't even fulfill their most basic functions.