Gang improvement thread
- CPTANT
- Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 1:31 pm
- Byond Username: CPTANT
Gang improvement thread
Gang isn't dead! it's just out of rotation.
Post your ideas on how to improve gang and discuss what you think the weakpoints of the mode are.
Personally:
1. remove implant breakers. They let one gang spiral out of control way too fast and completely bypass the recruitment pen cooldown.
2. Make the dominator harder to hide. Let it require free space in a 3x3 area surrounding it.
Post your ideas on how to improve gang and discuss what you think the weakpoints of the mode are.
Personally:
1. remove implant breakers. They let one gang spiral out of control way too fast and completely bypass the recruitment pen cooldown.
2. Make the dominator harder to hide. Let it require free space in a 3x3 area surrounding it.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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- Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:26 pm
- Byond Username: KorPhaeron
Re: Gang improvement thread
Cargo being busted and basically having unlimited money now means security can afford to pre-emptively implant the whole crew.
There needs to be one of the following
-Rules against implanting people who have not commit any crimes yet
-Heavily restrict access to implants
-Some sort of other downside to mass implanting/some sort of reason for crew to have a reason to fight back against the implants
Or best of all:
Security and the armory flat out dont spawn in gang, and it's antag vs antag vs antag
There needs to be one of the following
-Rules against implanting people who have not commit any crimes yet
-Heavily restrict access to implants
-Some sort of other downside to mass implanting/some sort of reason for crew to have a reason to fight back against the implants
Or best of all:
Security and the armory flat out dont spawn in gang, and it's antag vs antag vs antag
- Oldman Robustin
- Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 2:18 pm
- Byond Username: ForcefulCJS
Re: Gang improvement thread
If you don't spawn sec then you're going to have to overhaul the mode because as soon as people realize it's Gang War people will be lining up for their antag status and who could blame them.
You could make it more RP driven this way, but I have a feeling it would just snowball as people rush to join the Gang in whatever department has the most toys.
Sec's involvement is mostly problematic in the sense that they drastically outgun any antag unless they just sit on their asses until 30+ minutes in. Otherwise its not hard to balance implant acquisition prices, its mostly the process that leads to implanting that puts gangs at a huge disadvantage.
You could make it more RP driven this way, but I have a feeling it would just snowball as people rush to join the Gang in whatever department has the most toys.
Sec's involvement is mostly problematic in the sense that they drastically outgun any antag unless they just sit on their asses until 30+ minutes in. Otherwise its not hard to balance implant acquisition prices, its mostly the process that leads to implanting that puts gangs at a huge disadvantage.
- D&B
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Re: Gang improvement thread
Make CentComm restrict cargo purchases as gangs tag more than 20% of the station (combined.)
Put it under a pretense of "protecting our economic interests" or so and nothing is buyable in cargo OR shuttle trips take more than 1 minute.
Put it under a pretense of "protecting our economic interests" or so and nothing is buyable in cargo OR shuttle trips take more than 1 minute.
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- Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:43 am
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Re: Gang improvement thread
It's simple make implants cause like 20 brute damage, that way the AI can get involved and get completely shit on for trying to stop sec.
- BeeSting12
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Re: Gang improvement thread
no. sec gets shit on enough in conversion based rounds already by silicons and this will make noone accept implants willinglyJembo wrote:It's simple make implants cause like 20 brute damage, that way the AI can get involved and get completely shit on for trying to stop sec.
- Wyzack
- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:32 pm
- Byond Username: Wyzack
Re: Gang improvement thread
What if Sec's objective in Gang is just to make sure the captain escapes alive, with no mention of the gangs? Remove the SEC MANAGED TO STOP THE GANG text and make it so sec and one of the gangs can both greentext. It is mostly a change in semantics but it might help a bit
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- ShadowDimentio
- Joined: Thu May 08, 2014 3:15 am
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Re: Gang improvement thread
Remove it from the code.
Gang suffers from the intrinsic shortfall of the round being decided the moment jobs are selected. Do you have department access? If yes, you win. If no, you lose. Try as you might to pen people in the halls, they'll always either be ganged already because their head was a lieutenant, or they'll be moving too fast to pen effectively, running the constant risk of ~literally anyone~ seeing your pen and getting you set to arrest for being a gangboss, whereupon either sec or another gang finds and kills you.
Gang suffers from the intrinsic shortfall of the round being decided the moment jobs are selected. Do you have department access? If yes, you win. If no, you lose. Try as you might to pen people in the halls, they'll always either be ganged already because their head was a lieutenant, or they'll be moving too fast to pen effectively, running the constant risk of ~literally anyone~ seeing your pen and getting you set to arrest for being a gangboss, whereupon either sec or another gang finds and kills you.
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- Luke Cox
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Re: Gang improvement thread
Change gang to mafia. No more tagging, primary means of income is setting up drug labs in maint and selling illicit substances via an uplink. The mafia spawns with one godfather and three lieutenants. They can recruit up to 5 associates, who have the option of ratting them out to sec (mafia has to choose carefully and hunt down rats).
- Oldman Robustin
- Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 2:18 pm
- Byond Username: ForcefulCJS
Re: Gang improvement thread
Don't oversimplify the issue. Yes department gang leads have an intrinsic advantage over assistant leads or service leads (who are probably the most screwed since they can't access other service areas and dont have full maint access), but an enterprising gang lead can easily convert scientists/engineers/doctors as they roam the station, promote them, and send them back to the dept. to convert them. Or you can just spend a little bit of time learning the door wires or getting a promotion from the HOP.ShadowDimentio wrote:Remove it from the code.
Gang suffers from the intrinsic shortfall of the round being decided the moment jobs are selected. Do you have department access? If yes, you win. If no, you lose. Try as you might to pen people in the halls, they'll always either be ganged already because their head was a lieutenant, or they'll be moving too fast to pen effectively, running the constant risk of ~literally anyone~ seeing your pen and getting you set to arrest for being a gangboss, whereupon either sec or another gang finds and kills you.
I think Gangs are determined more by the competence of the starting leader than the leader's job. I'd put my money on a robust assistant over an incompetent RD any day of the week.
A simple improvement would probably be a more robust antag-selection code that immediately designates all gang leaders at roundstart. I've come to the conclusion that a leader being able to select the Lieutenants just tends to create more snowballing (good leaders will have metaknowledge on who to make LT's while newbies will just promote whoever they see, if anyone at all) and is just an obnoxious burden for the leader to undertake. Randomly selected leaders improves the chances that the gangs are relatively balanced as opposed to the fate of each gang being tied to the competence of a single individual, the laws of statistics aren't up for debate on this.
I think that suggestion alone would be a great start to making Gang War good enough for rotation.
- CPTANT
- Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 1:31 pm
- Byond Username: CPTANT
Re: Gang improvement thread
I think gang would be in a better place with both implant breakers and loyalty implants removed from the mode.
I think securities objective should still be to evacuate the station.
Having pre-selected lieutenants also sounds like a good change, it happens surprisingly often that a gang leader does not recruit them at all. And it also spreads the departmental access more.
I think securities objective should still be to evacuate the station.
Having pre-selected lieutenants also sounds like a good change, it happens surprisingly often that a gang leader does not recruit them at all. And it also spreads the departmental access more.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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- Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:26 pm
- Byond Username: KorPhaeron
Re: Gang improvement thread
This is true of the entire game and every mode and why every balance discussion is a huge joke.Gang suffers from the intrinsic shortfall of the round being decided the moment jobs are selected.
We have no matchmaking, and we can never have matchmaking because of our community size, so "balance" will always come down to whether [12 hour a day robust player of the month] got assigned to HoS or antag.
- ShadowDimentio
- Joined: Thu May 08, 2014 3:15 am
- Byond Username: David273
Re: Gang improvement thread
In the time it takes to scavenge hacking tools or getting a promotion from the HoP the lucky dick who spawned in a department will have converted everyone already. Then when you go to convert them, there's an extraordinarily high chance you're immidiately caught because conversion attempts are very obvious if you're expecting them, and are beset by a rival gang that greatly outnumbers you.
I've experienced like 4 rounds as ganghead mime and every one of them I lost because it was impossible for me to convert people. Anyone in the hall was either already taken or moved too much.
I've experienced like 4 rounds as ganghead mime and every one of them I lost because it was impossible for me to convert people. Anyone in the hall was either already taken or moved too much.
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- ShadowDimentio
- Joined: Thu May 08, 2014 3:15 am
- Byond Username: David273
Re: Gang improvement thread
In other modes getting a good job can be a huge boon but Gang made this just infinitely worse because it's a territory war. A moderately competent sci ganghead VS a very competent mime head, the game always goes to the sci guy.Kor wrote:This is true of the entire game and every mode and why every balance discussion is a huge joke.Code: Select all
Gang suffers from the intrinsic shortfall of the round being decided the moment jobs are selected.
We have no matchmaking, and we can never have matchmaking because of our community size, so "balance" will always come down to whether [12 hour a day robust player of the month] got assigned to HoS or antag.
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- CPTANT
- Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 1:31 pm
- Byond Username: CPTANT
Re: Gang improvement thread
Having 3 roundstart gang leaders per gang makes your already boring argument even less relevant.ShadowDimentio wrote:In other modes getting a good job can be a huge boon but Gang made this just infinitely worse because it's a territory war. A moderately competent sci ganghead VS a very competent mime head, the game always goes to the sci guy.Kor wrote:This is true of the entire game and every mode and why every balance discussion is a huge joke.Code: Select all
Gang suffers from the intrinsic shortfall of the round being decided the moment jobs are selected.
We have no matchmaking, and we can never have matchmaking because of our community size, so "balance" will always come down to whether [12 hour a day robust player of the month] got assigned to HoS or antag.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
- Screemonster
- Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 7:23 pm
- Byond Username: Scree
Re: Gang improvement thread
A team-vs-team mode that isn't focused on conversion might be interesting. It'd cut out the snowballing (there is no snowballing if there's no conversion) and likewise sec wouldn't be forced to go turbohitler on anyone without an implant to counter it.
Spawn a couple of teams, no recruitment, team objectives that may or may not overlap or conflict with the other team (but probably will), that sort of thing.
What I'm having trouble coming up with is something to discourage dem valids from just clamping down to wipe out the gangs as soon as the existence of gangs is revealed. Part of me wants to say "if a gang is wiped out entirely and no members escape alive, hand victory to the other gang" but that'll probably encourage murderboners.
Spawn a couple of teams, no recruitment, team objectives that may or may not overlap or conflict with the other team (but probably will), that sort of thing.
What I'm having trouble coming up with is something to discourage dem valids from just clamping down to wipe out the gangs as soon as the existence of gangs is revealed. Part of me wants to say "if a gang is wiped out entirely and no members escape alive, hand victory to the other gang" but that'll probably encourage murderboners.
- John_Oxford
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Re: Gang improvement thread
Maybe instead of penning people make it where each gang (carp/diablo/ect) will have different initations that they have to make people do.
Sleeping Carp requires you to sleep two tiles next to a space tile while there are two sleeping carp members next to you.
Diablo requires you to destroy three walls windows and tiles in the chapel while two other diablo members are in the chapel.
Make it so the pen given to the gang boss is a one use pen that auto promotes to lt and instantly puts a spraycan and weapon in their hand (relevant to the gang they are playing)
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The fun part of gangs is the stress of playing security during it. Bring back old loyalty implants, no one likes shit bags wasting your implant by going and walking back over to their gang boss and getting implanted again.
Mass Implanting is something gang is at fault for, i'm a blatant powergaming metagaming hos and even i don't mass implant before there's a reason to. The only reason a HoS would is because of the fact that gang's were to stupid not to stay hidden during the early game conversion process, and as such, deserved to be shit on for their incompetence.
Sleeping Carp requires you to sleep two tiles next to a space tile while there are two sleeping carp members next to you.
Diablo requires you to destroy three walls windows and tiles in the chapel while two other diablo members are in the chapel.
Make it so the pen given to the gang boss is a one use pen that auto promotes to lt and instantly puts a spraycan and weapon in their hand (relevant to the gang they are playing)
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The fun part of gangs is the stress of playing security during it. Bring back old loyalty implants, no one likes shit bags wasting your implant by going and walking back over to their gang boss and getting implanted again.
Mass Implanting is something gang is at fault for, i'm a blatant powergaming metagaming hos and even i don't mass implant before there's a reason to. The only reason a HoS would is because of the fact that gang's were to stupid not to stay hidden during the early game conversion process, and as such, deserved to be shit on for their incompetence.
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- CPTANT
- Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 1:31 pm
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Re: Gang improvement thread
A problem in gang is that sec has the incentive to just implant the entire crew as soon as they see grafiti.
What if the grafiti wasn't as plainly visible as it is now?
Perhaps make it only visible to gang members, or introduce something less meta prone?
What if the grafiti wasn't as plainly visible as it is now?
Perhaps make it only visible to gang members, or introduce something less meta prone?
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
- kevinz000
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Re: Gang improvement thread
I ran a gang event where I mass deleted all implants and disabled implant crates
Went well till Luke Cox had the AI plasma everything and all of the gangs including his own
Now everyone hates gang even more.
Went well till Luke Cox had the AI plasma everything and all of the gangs including his own
Now everyone hates gang even more.
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- ShadowDimentio
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- Anonmare
- Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:59 pm
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Re: Gang improvement thread
Gang's issue is the conversion. Remove conversion from the context and you'll, generally, solve sec going turbohitler on the entire crew. Plus it stops one one gang basically all-but-winning once they've converted security, I hope anyway.
Personally I'd prefer a mafia mode with a hierarchy where you have rank and file soldiers --> Caporegimes --> Godfather. Mafia members can't be deconverted but they can be forced to snitch on the person they immediately report to if you perform "Enhanced Interrogation" on them which has very specific sets that may vary from gang to gang ( But how they snitch will remain the same. Soldiers will snitch on their capo, capos snitch on the Godfather and the Godfather will never break).
I made a suggestion similar to mafia mode in the past and it worked generally a little like this:
Personally I'd prefer a mafia mode with a hierarchy where you have rank and file soldiers --> Caporegimes --> Godfather. Mafia members can't be deconverted but they can be forced to snitch on the person they immediately report to if you perform "Enhanced Interrogation" on them which has very specific sets that may vary from gang to gang ( But how they snitch will remain the same. Soldiers will snitch on their capo, capos snitch on the Godfather and the Godfather will never break).
I made a suggestion similar to mafia mode in the past and it worked generally a little like this:
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- PKPenguin321
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Re: Gang improvement thread
what ruins gang for me is this:
there are a few things that are pretty much absolutely required to successfully play as a gangster, those being:
- living gangheads
- converts
but get this, conversion's a trap! there's basically a 1/5 chance that somebody you try to pen is actually an enemy gangster, and now that they know you're also a gangster, you're now effectively dead.
this means that converting people kills you! but wait, you can't die, living gangheads are required to play!
but you also can't not convert, as converts are required to play, too.
it's a total catch 22. can't convert without being alive, can't be alive if you convert. unless you're stupidly lucky and happen by sheer chance to ever pen anybody who's an enemy gangster.
how to fix this? try any of these:
- give some tell for gangheads that the person they're about to attempt to convert is already a gangster
- don't display the "tiny prick" message for gangpens
- allow non-gangheads to convert (maybe with a tool that's bought by gangheads and is weaker than the regular conversion pen. maybe longer cooldown + it's not disguised as a pen).
- make individual converts more valuable so you don't need as many (and therefore reduce the chances of trying to convert somebody who's already a gangster). <- this one is hard because it's vague so i don't recommend it, but i think if somebody found an interesting way to do it it'd be good
there are a few things that are pretty much absolutely required to successfully play as a gangster, those being:
- living gangheads
- converts
but get this, conversion's a trap! there's basically a 1/5 chance that somebody you try to pen is actually an enemy gangster, and now that they know you're also a gangster, you're now effectively dead.
this means that converting people kills you! but wait, you can't die, living gangheads are required to play!
but you also can't not convert, as converts are required to play, too.
it's a total catch 22. can't convert without being alive, can't be alive if you convert. unless you're stupidly lucky and happen by sheer chance to ever pen anybody who's an enemy gangster.
how to fix this? try any of these:
- give some tell for gangheads that the person they're about to attempt to convert is already a gangster
- don't display the "tiny prick" message for gangpens
- allow non-gangheads to convert (maybe with a tool that's bought by gangheads and is weaker than the regular conversion pen. maybe longer cooldown + it's not disguised as a pen).
- make individual converts more valuable so you don't need as many (and therefore reduce the chances of trying to convert somebody who's already a gangster). <- this one is hard because it's vague so i don't recommend it, but i think if somebody found an interesting way to do it it'd be good
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