[dannno] akesson week sec ban

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:08 pm #270145

Byond account and character name: Akesson/dynamic name
Banning admin: Dannno
Ban type (What are you banned from?): sec roles
Ban reason and length:43800 Changed to a week. Permabrigged an assistant for disarming him twice. When told to release them, ran in with a flashbang, spooking the assistant who tried to grab them. They proceeded to execute the assistant, despite being explicitly told not to do it. Take a break from security.
Time ban was placed (including time zone): 2030 hours GMT
Your side of the story:
Spawn.
not even after leaving shuttle Pax (ckey: IcePacks) started disarming me fnr.
Challenged me to do something.
Arrested him.
Gulag was disabled - teleporter dismantled.
Chem implants are broken.
Brig him 6 mins + 1 minute for challenging me as latejoin on the shuttle. Would have gulagged for 500 pts.
Someone friendly to pax breaks him out fnr.
Arrest pax and stop that guy. busy focusing on pax.
Can't brig him because no cells and that guy keeps coming back.
Put him in permabrig secluded whilst I figure out a way to contain him.
AI lets him out of seclusion without telling me.
Dannno demands that I change my sentance and says it's excessive. Explain the situation.
Go to extract Pax to reduce his sentance, find out he's been let into permabrig main area and tried to break out with another permabrig inmate.
Pax soap slips and starts choking me to death.
Sec officer backs me up.
Try to manually gulag pax. Shuttle isn't spaceworthy.
Arrest and gas pax for attempted murder with N2O which is non lethal.
Banned from sec. Round disrupted.

Why you think you should be unbanned:
All it takes is a lucky disarm to ruin my round.
Don't swing at sec officers/cops.
Don't attack people on latejoin shuttle.
Don't instigate FNR and ahelp when you get bitten.
Don't attempt to murder a sec officer when he arrives after you have an admin demand your sentance be lowered, then ahelp because you couldn't murder him.
This is a banbait. I feel banbaited.
Dannno stated he is unwilling to revoke the ban and I should contact someone with a higher rank than him.

I'd also like a copy of my notes and pax's notes for comparison because Dannno is unwilling to give notes which are important to my ban appeal.

danno · Post by **danno** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:16 pm #270149

I already told you I lowered the ban time.
It's now a week long sec ban.

>get disarmed twice
>permabrig them
>accuse them of banbaiting

You permabrigged someone for disarming you twice.
When told to release them, you ran into perma with a flashbang and when they got understandably spooked (considering they were wordlessly permabrigged while afk for disarming someone twice) you proceeded to try to execute them despite me telling you not to do it.

Throughout the round, you were attributing the crimes of other people to Pax and punishing him for things outside of his control. He has no control over people who try to break into the brig, or into perma.

I'm not going to give you Pax's notes because not only is it not a thing we do, but it's not even relevant. If you really permabrigged him for disarming you twice because of his "history", I should probably have week banned you for metagrudge.

I've already said in supportbus that my stance isn't going to change. I've heard the opinion of other admins as well and that reinforces my opinion on what happened. Unless a headmin decides this isn't justified, take a break for a week.

Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:19 pm

Biggest problem I have with the OP's story is

>Put him in permabrig secluded whilst I figure out a way to contain him.

Like come on, you mean to tell me you left and all you did after you left was an intense session of figuring out how to contain him? That absolutely did not happen. If you want to figure out a way to detain somebody, you stay near them, you don't dump them in the permabrig then wander around to "figure out a way to contain them."

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:30 pm #270162

PKPenguin321 wrote:Biggest problem I have with the OP's story is

>Put him in permabrig secluded whilst I figure out a way to contain him.

Like come on, you mean to tell me you left and all you did after you left was an intense session of figuring out how to contain him? That absolutely did not happen. If you want to figure out a way to detain somebody, you stay near them, you don't dump them in the permabrig then wander around to "figure out a way to contain them."

Both brig cells were occupied and people were breaking him out.
I had to handle those people. I had a job to do man, I can't let a timewaster screw over the guy who just needed to have a cleaver taken from him.

You permabrigged someone for disarming you twice.
When told to release them, you ran into perma with a flashbang and when they got understandably spooked (considering they were wordlessly permabrigged while afk for disarming someone twice) you proceeded to try to execute them despite me telling you not to do it.

Throughout the round, you were attributing the crimes of other people to Pax and punishing him for things outside of his control. He has no control over people who try to break into the brig, or into perma.

Actually, when did I try to execute them at any time?
I never used lethal force at all. In fact, someone else (quoting oranges, "a friend of pax" teleported a bomb into the gas chamber killing, gibbing and damaging the brig.

If he does not want better treatment or worse treatment from others because of his background, change his name.

I also never at any time attributed my sentancing based on his notes or background. My sentance was fair until I couldn't sentence him properly (6-7 minutes assault of officer, 500 pts gulag).

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:34 pm #270168

Does the brig not come with blast doors for the external facing windows anymore?

danno · Post by **danno** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:40 pm #270172

You were dragging them into the execution chamber
It doesn't make it any better that you just left them in there with the gas on. That's not a compromise. Leaving someone unable to play the game isn't any different than a death sentence.

Oranges was wrong. The bomb was done by an antagonist. Oranges is not an admin and seems to have something against IcePacks.

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:47 pm #270174

danno wrote:You were dragging them into the execution chamber
It doesn't make it any better that you just left them in there with the gas on. That's not a compromise. Leaving someone unable to play the game isn't any different than a death sentence.

Oranges was wrong. The bomb was done by an antagonist. Oranges is not an admin and seems to have something against IcePacks.

They were willing to ensure I was unable to play the game when they soap choked me and tried to kill me. That in itself was worth a death sentance. The events leading up to this should be evaluated.

danno · Post by **danno** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:50 pm #270178

They escalated reasonably. You didn't.
You put them in a position where they were out of the loop, unaware of what was going on, and did not feel justified in the fact that they were in permabrig. And then you ran in with a flashbang.

Comparatively, you were disarmed twice and then spent the rest of the round trying to remove them from the game.

Jacough · Post by **Jacough** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:53 pm #270182

An0n3 amendment:

> Pax starts shit
> Challenges him to do something about it
> He does something about it
> Wah you were too rough on me!

Since when was security obligated to be sweet and gentle with grey tiders and people just looking to start trouble? I really don't like J_Mad but expecting security to just be someone's bitch when that person is obviously just looking to start shit is dumb as hell.

danno · Post by **danno** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:55 pm #270185

There's "doing something about it" and there's permabrigging someone and then leaving them in sleep gas because they disarmed you twice. Next time stick to the timer cells or the gulag or something.

I don't really have anything more to add, I think. So until a headmin chimes in that's probably that for me.

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:56 pm #270188

danno wrote:Next time stick to the timer cells or the gulag or something.

occupied and full.
disabled by greytiders before I entered the round

danno · Post by **danno** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:57 pm #270190

Not a good reason to permabrig, as PKP explained.

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:01 pm #270191

danno wrote:Not a good reason to permabrig, as PKP explained.

what am I going to do instead? let a petty timewaster ruin the rounds of the 4 guys with minor sentences?

Post by **oranges** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:01 pm #270192

I would like an explanation of how someone knew to teleport a bomb to pax's location and blow him up

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:02 pm #270193

oranges wrote:I would like an explanation of how someone knew to teleport a bomb to pax's location and blow him up

I implanted pax with a tracking beacon to keep an eye on him after he was sentenced. I do not know if it is or is not possible to teleport a bomb to a tracking implant.

edit:

ran into perma with a flashbang

This is a reasonable way to deal with someone who will assault you and try to disarm you if you enter their cell.

Post by **oranges** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:03 pm #270195

I'm sure there is a legitimate explanation for the events

danno · Post by **danno** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:04 pm #270196

I'd assume that is the explanation
which is pretty funny

Post by **oranges** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:05 pm #270198

that explains the how, not the why.

danno · Post by **danno** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:07 pm #270200

They were an antagonist with bombs and access to telescience.
The why is kind of self apparent; "Why not?"

are you really suggesting that pax was metacommunicating with an antagonist in order to get blown up

D&B · Post by **D&B** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:08 pm #270201

Anon3 Amendment:

How is permabrigging not accepted as punishment?

The person was broken out of a normal cell, and was a fugitive of the law as they accepted the escape. They were aided by the AI in escaping too, and attempted murder of the officer that arrested them. You might say "Arresting them is not good escalation for disarming them twice" but you have to remember the combat system is based on weakens, stuns and slips. Even one lucky disarm can prove fatal, and Jmad followed just on both Pax's dare and the actions he took.

What concerns me the most however is how unwilling you are to present Jmad with his own notes. Is there a reason or a change in policy that made player notes secrets? I remember in earlier headmin terms one could freely ask to see their notes without a hindrance, so it is worrying that you are so adamant (if what Jmad says is correct) to show him his own notes.

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:08 pm #270202

I think a month ban was completely unreasonable to begin with considering I have absolutely no new notes since the note system, and my past notes for sec behaviour can be explained.

I appreciate lowering the ban to a week, but it's still completely unreasonable because this is my first sec ban in a very long time and I have very little notes prior to this, which is an unusually harsh sentance for someone with little priors.

That's also a reason why I requested notes for both me and Pax to compare our history and show that this ban was unreasonable in length.

danno · Post by **danno** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:12 pm #270205

It's not reasonable to permabrig one person for the actions of another, especially since that person wasn't even present at the keyboard allegedly.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have arrested Pax. I'm saying they shouldn't have permabrigged him.

I'm not unwilling to present Jmad with his own notes. They can get those themselves, though. I'm not going to give them IcePack's notes without him agreeing to it or a headmin deeming it relevant.

The fact that you don't have many notes is the reason I agreed that a month ban was unreasonable, which is why I lowered it, so I'm not sure what the relevance is.

danno · Post by **danno** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:13 pm #270206

I am confident that you will not ever convince an admin to "compare histories". That's just silly.

Post by **oranges** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:14 pm #270207

danno wrote:They were an antagonist with bombs and access to telescience.
The why is kind of self apparent; "Why not?"

are you really suggesting that pax was metacommunicating with an antagonist in order to get blown up

Yes

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:15 pm #270208

danno wrote:It's not reasonable to permabrig one person for the actions of another, especially since that person wasn't even present at the keyboard allegedly.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have arrested Pax. I'm saying they shouldn't have permabrigged him.

I'm not unwilling to present Jmad with his own notes. They can get those themselves, though. I'm not going to give them IcePack's notes without him agreeing to it or a headmin deeming it relevant.

The fact that you don't have many notes is the reason I agreed that a month ban was unreasonable, which is why I lowered it, so I'm not sure what the relevance is.

It's not unreasonable to tread extra lightly with someone that has years of prior behaviour. You absolutely cannot expect someone to have impartial judgement if they have repeated this behaviour for years. I have tried my best to remain neutral when sentancing, but it's only human to treat it like a duck if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.
It is not relavent whether or not they were at the keyboard or not. They were at the keyboard at the time of arrest, and they were at the keyboard at the time of breakout.

I am requesting you offer an alternative solution if you were in my place that didn't involve disrupting other's gameplay by offering a single invidivual your undivided attention.

I think a week ban is unreasonable in this case.

Jacough · Post by **Jacough** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:20 pm #270211

What concerns me the most however is how unwilling you are to present Jmad with his own notes. Is there a reason or a change in policy that made player notes secrets?

That's actually the only part of Danno's decision I agree with in all honesty. J_Mad has a reputation for being a creepy stalker so withholding certain information from him seems like a fair call. Other than that, this ban is a fucking joke.

danno wrote:Not a good reason to permabrig, as PKP explained.

So brigging him wasn't an option because all the cells were occupied and some guy kept trying to break him out, and the gulag was a no go because it had been sabotaged. What would you have done?

oranges wrote:
danno wrote:They were an antagonist with bombs and access to telescience.
The why is kind of self apparent; "Why not?"

are you really suggesting that pax was metacommunicating with an antagonist in order to get blown up
Yes

Would the tracking implant have shown up with Pax's name on it if someone used a GPS? If so, yeah I can understand the antag bombing. Number 1, it's Pax and number 2, who wouldn't turn down an opportunity to kill Pax in a way that shows serious robustness? If not though then yeah, some log diving might be good to see if maybe somehow the traitor might have overheard that Pax had been implanted.

danno · Post by **danno** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:26 pm #270215

I'd probably kick him in the shins once or twice and then release him because after all, all he did was disarm me twice.

Jmad, you can't base your actions on your meta info about a player's history. There's a point where it slips into metagrudge territory and that's not something anyone wants to deal with.

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:31 pm #270219

danno wrote:I'd probably kick him in the shins once or twice and then release him because after all, all he did was disarm me twice.

Jmad, you can't base your actions on your meta info about a player's history. There's a point where it slips into metagrudge territory and that's not something anyone wants to deal with.

Absolutely not. That leads to more escalations.

Did I increase his sentence time because of his history? It is 6-7 minutes or 500 pts. Completely reasonable and that sentance never changed from the last 10 rounds I played as sec. I assure you.

I'm one of the firmist believers against meta advantages and disadvantages, that's a pretty damning accusation if you accuse me of doing what I'm completely against.

Edit: Isn't security meant to de-escalate and put an end to esclations?
Eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. I'm not going to escalate it when my job is to prevent escalations.

danno · Post by **danno** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:06 pm #270232

J_Madison wrote:
Did I increase his sentence time because of his history? It is 6-7 minutes or 500 pts. Completely reasonable and that sentance never changed from the last 10 rounds I played as sec. I assure you.

...But this isn't what you did. You permabrigged him and eventually locked and abandoned him in a room full of sleeping gas.

J_Madison wrote: Edit: Isn't security meant to de-escalate and put an end to esclations?
Eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. I'm not going to escalate it when my job is to prevent escalations.

So why did you escalate it to the point where you left a man in the execution chamber with the gas on

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:20 pm #270236

danno wrote:
J_Madison wrote:
Did I increase his sentence time because of his history? It is 6-7 minutes or 500 pts. Completely reasonable and that sentance never changed from the last 10 rounds I played as sec. I assure you.
...But this isn't what you did. You permabrigged him and eventually locked and abandoned him in a room full of sleeping gas.

I permabrigged him because there was no reasonable way to hold him as mentioned in posts before, because someone kept trying to break him out.

danno wrote:
J_Madison wrote: Edit: Isn't security meant to de-escalate and put an end to esclations?
Eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. I'm not going to escalate it when my job is to prevent escalations.
So why did you escalate it to the point where you left a man in the execution chamber with the gas on

Because he tried to murder me?

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:40 pm #270248

This conversation looks like it's a clone of the discussion in supportbus and it's not going anywhere

The issue with permabrigging Pax here is, imo, not "you perma'd him to avoid people busting him out" (by the way, did people trying to bust him out coincide with the fact that you arrested him for disarming you twice, becuase that seems likely) but the fact you felt a brigging was necessary at all

iamgoofball · Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:49 pm

I dunno about you guys but really greytiders don't deserve any nice things

When someone is disarming me as an officer or HoS, every time I don't assume they're trying to kill me they usually do so.

BeeSting12 · Post by **BeeSting12** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:50 pm #270259

At the point Pax tried to murder him, he earned that execution 100%. Attempted murder is a capital crime under space law. I'm not actually sure why JMad is getting a weekban for following space law, meanwhile a static named greytider who pulls this every round, to a point where it's an unfunny meme for the security players tasked with dealing with him, doesn't even get talked to for disarming an officer RIGHT OFF THE ARRIVALS SHUTTLE.

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:51 pm #270261

Qbopper wrote:This conversation looks like it's a clone of the discussion in supportbus and it's not going anywhere

The issue with permabrigging Pax here is, imo, not "you perma'd him to avoid people busting him out" (by the way, did people trying to bust him out coincide with the fact that you arrested him for disarming you twice, becuase that seems likely) but the fact you felt a brigging was necessary at all

As Dannno said, he's standing by his decision and we're waiting for a senior admin to make their judgement.

No, his breakout didn't coincide with his brigging reason. The person that removed him from the brig was playing a gimmick as a "brig goblin". My lesson is learned that I will stop those gimmicks in the future.

But, out of all the people the "goblin" could have broken out (more than 5 people), he chose specifically Pax.

And yes. I feel a brigging was absolutely necessary. You do not assault or try to assault a member of Sec without consequences.

danno · Post by **danno** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:16 am #270291

This comes down to whether or not you understand that you poorly escalated the situation when you permabrigged a man for disarming you. You can talk about Pax trying to kill you all you want, but it's you who put him in a situation in which he was justified to do so. That's kill baiting, if anything.

I don't believe that you had any intention of releasing them before I PMed you, and neither does PKP. It's not a good way to go about things and according to your notes, you've kept someone in brig with sleeping gas before as well and were warned for it.

The thing that gets me is you did this all despite me telling you there would be a problem if you did it. I think a week off is a good amount of time to think about what went wrong here.

danno · Post by **danno** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:28 am #270297

Next time you find yourself in a situation like this, let the person go. They disarmed you twice. Let them free. If they keep fucking with you, that's when you start ramping up punishment.

This is a good way to go about things because not only would you not be reading this thread right now, but you'd have all that time to deal with the problems your brig was facing. Maybe catch some of those criminals who were actually committing real crimes.

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:12 am #270315

I'm not too keen on taking advice for playing sec from you. Your ban was extremely heavy handed and the reason is paper thin in my opinion.

I think it should be understood and clear that swinging at a security officer results in a length sentence.

I may have "poorly escalated" in your opinion, but I never instigated FNR. I wasn't the person who sees someone arrive late game and the first thought is to disarm and assault them.

Maybe you should note and punish the people that broke him out of brig and note pax for his instigations too. But you didn't and you let it slide.

Edit:
He isn't justified to kill anyone. He got an admin involved and that admin forced me to release him from his cell be reduce his sentence.

That's OOC information being used IC. Fine, but he uses his admin interventing release to bait me into his cell where he tried to kill me.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:23 am #270321

John_Oxford wrote:KNOWN. GREYTIDER.

Known from where, previous rounds?

The last time I was sec a few nights ago, Pax came and fucked with me too. I threw a bolas and laughed at him, and we got in a short disarm slapfight and that was it.

Turns out he was an antag too so even having that luxury it didn't "escalate". You're focusing too much on "It's Pax" IC when that's something for the admins to worry about, and that's why j_mad is in the shit here.

danno · Post by **danno** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:24 am #270323

Well, weekban's how I'm leaving it then, under recommendation of the headmin.

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:26 am #270324

I dunno saeg, I didn't give him any different of a brig sentence until his buddy broke him out.

6-8 minutes/500-600 gulag points is reasonable and standard as brig sentences go.

Which headmin recommended the weekban?

danno · Post by **danno** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:28 am #270325

Pkpenguin.

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:29 am #270326

PKP should close the thread if he feels beyond reasonable doubt that this is his final decision.
I welcome any admins or headmins whom want to weigh in.

danno · Post by **danno** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:31 am #270327

whom'st*

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:40 am #270331

I'd like the ban reason/note fixed to give a clearer understanding of the story. I think dannno's side of the story left out crucial details and paints it in a bad light.

Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:40 am

Listen, you got disarmed twice at the arrivals shuttle by an unarmed man. You tased him and dragged him around. You could have just tased him and said "haha now shoo" or something and walked away and he woulda left you alone. If he didn't, then you could've taken him to the brig, and if you saw there were no cells, you could have thrown him out and told him not to come back. If he came back again, you could have just shot him and taken him out of the round. There are levels to escalation, and being disarmed while you're not even holding anything is practically the lowest.

You went from "he disarmed me twice" (the lowest level) to "indefinitely N2O him and permanently remove him from the round" with your justification being there are no cells. Learn to escalate. Yes, under regular circumstances you could have just temporarily brigged him (although you gave him like 6 minutes IIRC for doing essentially nothing to you), but there were not regular circumstances. Yes, he did start attacking you when you took him out of the permabrig, but that was reasonable escalation on his part (you permabrigged him for what was essentially nothing).

Dannno made the good call, this is staying at a week. Appeal rejected.

Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:41 am

And no, I think the note is pretty much fine, N2Oing is essentially killing in most circumstances.

Hit me up on #supportbus if you wanna keep pushing the note wording.