Addressing the stun meta
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Addressing the stun meta
So here you are. Fully decked out in combat gear. A pulse rifle, hardsuit, combat jumpsuit, all of it. You feel like you can take on anything. Except a naked guy with cable cuffs and a taser just one-shotted you. The fight is over and you're done. Not 5 SMG rounds, not 4 stetchkin bullets, not 3 laser cannon hits, not even 2 pulse rifle blasts. Nope, just one, singular taser shot and you're out.
I don't expect a goon-style stun system, given that all weapons do less overall damage on goon. What I'm talking about is stun-cuffing and endless, no-way-out, stunlocking. I'm pretty sure the police baton didn't have much of a wait time before, but I know it has one now and it hasn't made a difference. The same old stun, drag, stun, rinse and repeat. They won't be able to get away, because the stun time is longer than the time it takes to get away, and you can also hit them with whatever in-between the delays. Same with the telescopic baton and stun baton. Just stun and drag, with hits in between. Nothing they can do about it. A stun should be just long enough to grab, pin, and cuff. The grabbing part would at least give them a second or two to think, along with an RNG chance of resisting out of it. I don't think that cuffing should require grabbing, like on bay, but I think it's ridiculous to allow the stun time to last longer than the cuffing time itself. The pay off of the current stun n' cuff method is too much for too little effort.
At the very least, the melee stuns have a risk. You may get disarmed and have that supreme advantage turned against you. However, that's not the case with the taser. I.e. you've got a guy on the very edge of your view range, just standing there. You think that he won't be a huge issue, because even if he has a gun, he'll probably only land a few rounds or so before you get away. Haha, NOPE! Two clicks, one to pull out the taser, then one on you. In no time flat, you're on the ground and he's casually walking over to cuff you, to drag you off to your inevitable demise. Oh silly you, don't you know? You're not supposed to stand next to people stand within people's view range. Don't worry, maybe you'll be more robust next time.
I don't expect a goon-style stun system, given that all weapons do less overall damage on goon. What I'm talking about is stun-cuffing and endless, no-way-out, stunlocking. I'm pretty sure the police baton didn't have much of a wait time before, but I know it has one now and it hasn't made a difference. The same old stun, drag, stun, rinse and repeat. They won't be able to get away, because the stun time is longer than the time it takes to get away, and you can also hit them with whatever in-between the delays. Same with the telescopic baton and stun baton. Just stun and drag, with hits in between. Nothing they can do about it. A stun should be just long enough to grab, pin, and cuff. The grabbing part would at least give them a second or two to think, along with an RNG chance of resisting out of it. I don't think that cuffing should require grabbing, like on bay, but I think it's ridiculous to allow the stun time to last longer than the cuffing time itself. The pay off of the current stun n' cuff method is too much for too little effort.
At the very least, the melee stuns have a risk. You may get disarmed and have that supreme advantage turned against you. However, that's not the case with the taser. I.e. you've got a guy on the very edge of your view range, just standing there. You think that he won't be a huge issue, because even if he has a gun, he'll probably only land a few rounds or so before you get away. Haha, NOPE! Two clicks, one to pull out the taser, then one on you. In no time flat, you're on the ground and he's casually walking over to cuff you, to drag you off to your inevitable demise. Oh silly you, don't you know? You're not supposed to stand next to people stand within people's view range. Don't worry, maybe you'll be more robust next time.
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
Two choices.
1. Acquire proficiency
2. Step up and overhaul something no one's been able to overhaul for the last 4? years.
1. Acquire proficiency
2. Step up and overhaul something no one's been able to overhaul for the last 4? years.
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
Paprika got one step into the implementation of his stamina combat system before he burned out like a meteor and quit.
Stuns aren't going anywhere so get used to it.
Stuns aren't going anywhere so get used to it.
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
There's been four theads over a span of several years, according to the topic search. That's not much, considering how much people gripe about it.
I also wouldn't expect a complete rework of stuns into stamina depletion, because it's not really required.
The only thing I'm asking is that they not enable stunlocking or the no (reasonable) counter stun n' cuff:
* For tasers. Strongly diminishing stun time based on tazing distance. I single tase from across view range shouldn't drop anyone for than a couple seconds.
* Delay for the taser. It's a taser, not a crowd control weapon. This would also stop people from shooting at a distance with a diminished stun, then just immediately shooting again at a closer range for a longer stun before they get up (try quickly pulling out that baton instead).
* The stuns for melee weapons should be long enough to grab the person and cuff them. However, short enough that you can't just stun them, then stun them again before the even get a chance to stand. Stunlocking and/or cuffing leaves the target completely defenseless against whatever, for however long the other person feels like doing so. It probably shouldn't be low effort, high reward.
* The only exception to this would be the stun baton. You can stun as fast as you can click, but none of them should last long, and you're losing battery power with each swing.
As for any, "just git gud," comments, don't worry I already have! I found out that the only thing I needed to reliably counter the old stun n' cuff tactic was to have a meta buddy to give me cyborg arms and meth filled teeth near round start. Because why strive for balance when we can just powergame, amirite?
My point being that how "gud" a player might be, doesn't change the balance situation of the game. It's like me murderboning an entire crew with pre-nerf chloral and then saying it's fine, it's just that they needed to "git gud." And sure, they could all run around in hard suits, not coming near each other, "gitting gud," but none of that actually made pre-nerf chloral any less broken, balance-wise.
I also wouldn't expect a complete rework of stuns into stamina depletion, because it's not really required.
The only thing I'm asking is that they not enable stunlocking or the no (reasonable) counter stun n' cuff:
* For tasers. Strongly diminishing stun time based on tazing distance. I single tase from across view range shouldn't drop anyone for than a couple seconds.
* Delay for the taser. It's a taser, not a crowd control weapon. This would also stop people from shooting at a distance with a diminished stun, then just immediately shooting again at a closer range for a longer stun before they get up (try quickly pulling out that baton instead).
* The stuns for melee weapons should be long enough to grab the person and cuff them. However, short enough that you can't just stun them, then stun them again before the even get a chance to stand. Stunlocking and/or cuffing leaves the target completely defenseless against whatever, for however long the other person feels like doing so. It probably shouldn't be low effort, high reward.
* The only exception to this would be the stun baton. You can stun as fast as you can click, but none of them should last long, and you're losing battery power with each swing.
As for any, "just git gud," comments, don't worry I already have! I found out that the only thing I needed to reliably counter the old stun n' cuff tactic was to have a meta buddy to give me cyborg arms and meth filled teeth near round start. Because why strive for balance when we can just powergame, amirite?
My point being that how "gud" a player might be, doesn't change the balance situation of the game. It's like me murderboning an entire crew with pre-nerf chloral and then saying it's fine, it's just that they needed to "git gud." And sure, they could all run around in hard suits, not coming near each other, "gitting gud," but none of that actually made pre-nerf chloral any less broken, balance-wise.
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
The singular issue you'll find with stuns is that there is no one, who has the coding proficiency, who is willing to step up and propose a overhaul to stun combat.
I think you'll find a lot of people would support a move away from one stun combat if a good alternative system was proposed.
I think you'll find a lot of people would support a move away from one stun combat if a good alternative system was proposed.
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
icepacks already come up with some solution, its in one of the 1000 other threads
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
Steel rifles and m1911s for sec only final destination
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
if i see someone on meth resisting my stuns i'm not going to stop with just a stun :^)
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
ignore davy
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
Shooting a taser at someone should start a yugioh match to decide the winner of the fight
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
I don't think the stun meta will ever go away, It's what SS13 is about at this point and the only realistic choice is to balance it
... What if taser stun duration was decided by the distance between the source and the affected dude?
... What if taser stun duration was decided by the distance between the source and the affected dude?
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
Steelpoint wrote:The singular issue you'll find with stuns is that there is no one, who has the coding proficiency, who is willing to step up and propose a overhaul to stun combat.
I think you'll find a lot of people would support a move away from one stun combat if a good alternative system was proposed.
I did do this, however the 2 shot taser wasn't given the chance it deserves.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
Yeah I agree. Diminishing stun time based on distance.I don't think the stun meta will ever go away, It's what SS13 is about at this point and the only realistic choice is to balance it
... What if taser stun duration was decided by the distance between the source and the affected dude?
How did the two-shot taser work? Did the first shot just do a lot of stamina damage, with the second shot depleting the target, or something?I did do this, however the 2 shot taser wasn't given the chance it deserves.
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
don't whine about security one hit stuns when antags have two hit crits.
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
why not make tasers tethers that required a reload after every shot like current 2017 tasers do
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
because once again don't whine about security having one shot stuns when antags have items to stunbreak and two shot kills.
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
and unless you want to scrap every single conversion gamemode go throw out your "This is a taser not a crowd control device" argument too.
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
That wouldn't be a bad thing.kevinz000 wrote:and unless you want to scrap every single conversion gamemode go throw out your "This is a taser not a crowd control device" argument too.
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
Look this is the mentality that deadlocked this entire debate for years.kevinz000 wrote:don't whine about security one hit stuns when antags have two hit crits.
Changes WILL have to trickle down if such a change is made.
But taking the FUNDAMENTAL step of removing 1 shot ranged stuns will provide a framework to balance the rest of the game.
1 hit ranged stun -> has to go.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
You will fail to properly rectify this issue without an extensive rework of our combat.
My proposal, take it or leave it:
My proposal, take it or leave it:
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
Before we do that, we must address the movement speed
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
Before we do ANY stun nerfing at all conversion antags need to be looked at
The entire point of revs for example is quality vs quantity
Take security's stuns and you get not enough quantity vs quantity = deadcurity.
The entire point of revs for example is quality vs quantity
Take security's stuns and you get not enough quantity vs quantity = deadcurity.
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
Rev conversion could be slowed down by making their flashes burn out like normal ones.
I'm 99% sure that revheads right now never burn out their flashes so they have theoretically infinite conversions.
I'm 99% sure that revheads right now never burn out their flashes so they have theoretically infinite conversions.
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
they're the same thing.
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
Leoz is correct. The path is clear. You know what must be donelzimann wrote:That wouldn't be a bad thing.kevinz000 wrote:and unless you want to scrap every single conversion gamemode go throw out your "This is a taser not a crowd control device" argument too.
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
make all stuns also stun you so you have to have a friend cuff the person for you
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
hurts my heart to see this thread again like it never happened
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
Alsodanno wrote:hurts my heart to see this thread again like it never happened
By the way.
STAMINA DAMAGE IS NOT THE WAY TO GO UNLESS STAMINA DAMAGE IS HEAVILY REWORKED.
You get stunned? Well shit you're helpless for the next 10 seconds.
You got stamina stunned? Well shit you're helpless for the next 10 seconds. And then they toolbox you halfway through, making your stamina damage + normal damage once again more than 100 and sending you another stamina stun.
Now you're helpless for another 10 seconds. And then they toolbox you halfw- Oh shit you're really dead now.
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
How does Goon do stuns? Perhaps we should emulate the mechanics of the low RP server if this really is the direction we're going
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
please don't.Anonmare wrote:How does Goon do stuns? Perhaps we should emulate the mechanics of the low RP server if this really is the direction we're going
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
But they have a point
It's pointless to posture like we're ever going to return to """"mid"""" RP or go High RP, so we should start focusing on mechanics that compliment low-rp play instead
It's pointless to posture like we're ever going to return to """"mid"""" RP or go High RP, so we should start focusing on mechanics that compliment low-rp play instead
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
I told you, goon stuns folks.
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
just remove stuns and make weapons 1 hit kills regardless of what they are
then give security goofgunsmithing and don't balance it then remove tc's from nuke ops and give them a crate full of materials and 5 gunsmithing stations
then give security goofgunsmithing and don't balance it then remove tc's from nuke ops and give them a crate full of materials and 5 gunsmithing stations
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
Stun combat will never get changed because:
A: No one has proposed a solution that comprehensively addresses the entire situation (ie: regular combat, as well as basic security function and conversion modes)
B: Even if someone figured out the above, it would be such a massive amount of EFFORT, since you couldn't change combat first then address the sec/conversion issues after, as that will make the game effectively unplayable in the meantime, so no coder will likely ever be bothered.
A: No one has proposed a solution that comprehensively addresses the entire situation (ie: regular combat, as well as basic security function and conversion modes)
B: Even if someone figured out the above, it would be such a massive amount of EFFORT, since you couldn't change combat first then address the sec/conversion issues after, as that will make the game effectively unplayable in the meantime, so no coder will likely ever be bothered.
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
Getting stunned from stamina damage should just remove a fair bit of the stamina damage.kevinz000 wrote:Alsodanno wrote:hurts my heart to see this thread again like it never happened
By the way.
STAMINA DAMAGE IS NOT THE WAY TO GO UNLESS STAMINA DAMAGE IS HEAVILY REWORKED.
You get stunned? Well shit you're helpless for the next 10 seconds.
You got stamina stunned? Well shit you're helpless for the next 10 seconds. And then they toolbox you halfway through, making your stamina damage + normal damage once again more than 100 and sending you another stamina stun.
Now you're helpless for another 10 seconds. And then they toolbox you halfw- Oh shit you're really dead now.
So 100 stamina damage -> 5-7 second stun and -50 stamina damage.
Actually that would be a vast improvement. Someone go code it!
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
remove stuns
buff all weapons to be instant kill
fixed
buff all weapons to be instant kill
fixed
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
Goon does stuns effectively the same as usAnonmare wrote:How does Goon do stuns? Perhaps we should emulate the mechanics of the low RP server if this really is the direction we're going
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
Yeah I'm pretty sure that only bay does stuns differently than we do
and I think bay stuns are just 2-shot stun disabler style
and I think bay stuns are just 2-shot stun disabler style
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
Can confirm that when I played it's based on "pain".danno wrote:Yeah I'm pretty sure that only bay does stuns differently than we do
and I think bay stuns are just 2-shot stun disabler style
Also their tasers are hitscan :/
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- kevinz000
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
Also specifically catering for low rp isn't the best
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Commissions way too much art...
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- TheColdTurtle
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
The only way to make this shitty game and server good is to fire all the coders and retarded admins and have the code be controlled by one person like CM does. But dumbass ledditors like to say "HEH HE MENTIONED CM THAT MEANS HIS ARGUMENT IS WRONG BECAUSE I SAW A POST ON digg SAYIMG THAT IT IS BAD HEH"
t. Someone who has not read this shitty thread at all and just posted because
t. Someone who has not read this shitty thread at all and just posted because
- TheColdTurtle
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- kevinz000
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
Korphaeron save us
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- oranges
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
TheColdTurtle wrote: have the code be controlled by one person like CM does.
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
It is why goon separates stamina damage from actual health. and typically stuff that do meaningful stamina damage dont do decent physical damage, and things that do meaningful physical damage dont have stamina damage higher than a player's base stamina regen.kevinz000 wrote:Alsodanno wrote:hurts my heart to see this thread again like it never happened
By the way.
STAMINA DAMAGE IS NOT THE WAY TO GO UNLESS STAMINA DAMAGE IS HEAVILY REWORKED.
You get stunned? Well shit you're helpless for the next 10 seconds.
You got stamina stunned? Well shit you're helpless for the next 10 seconds. And then they toolbox you halfway through, making your stamina damage + normal damage once again more than 100 and sending you another stamina stun.
Now you're helpless for another 10 seconds. And then they toolbox you halfw- Oh shit you're really dead now.
Kludging together a stamina system out of holo-damage was a very poor way to go about it, and now it will require EFFORT to fix.
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
This post was made by oranges who is currently on your ignore list. Display this post.
can someone please tell me if it is worth it to open this post? Because I am thinking that it contributes nothing due to the person who made it.......
can someone please tell me if it is worth it to open this post? Because I am thinking that it contributes nothing due to the person who made it.......
- danno
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Re: Addressing the stun meta
It's better than pretending like we have some kind of plan and continuing to pull the rope both ways the way we are now.kevinz000 wrote:Also specifically catering for low rp isn't the best
At least if we decide we're low-rp once and for all, we finally have a fucking direction to focus on.
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