Powergaming, security, and you

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bandit
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:35 pm
Byond Username: Bgobandit

Powergaming, security, and you

Post by bandit » #30397

Bottom post of the previous page:

For those of you who don't follow singulo (yes I know keep reading), one player quit, reasoning explained here: http://pastebin.com/Ltu19DV5

The gist was that this player was tired of being BWOINK!ed for security "powergaming," specifically for fortifying the brig and dragging Beepsky around to apprehend antags. In one case, I have a broader than usual grasp of the full situation, as I was the AI in this round. There was an antag with an e-bow, esword and magboots (I think the gravity was out) on a murderbone. They only got dunked because of Beepsky dragging. This was a traitor who had e-bow and e-sword murdered about 10 people. I saw about three of the murders take place personally -- they were zipping around the station murdering whoever they came across, and stuffing their bodies into a locker. By the time Beepsky finally took him down, the locker contained about 12 bodies.

So who's powergaming more?

I think this boils down to two things, really:

Point one: You cannot tell security not to powergame when antags are powergaming. You just can't. If an antag is running around with an e-sword (that blocks tasers), e-bow (that GGs at range), magboots (permanent speed boost), potentially ablative (blocks even more tasers/lasers) and such, security basically has to use things other than their standard gear loadout. You can punish powergaming on both sides, or you can not punish powergaming on either side, but you cannot punish powergaming in a lopsided way. This particular case will result in:

- A decrease in players playing security, as they do not want to get BWOINKed for doing their job. This, as everyone knows, is already happening. People like to say that players don't play security because of the antag roll, but the antag roll is being moved, and I predict we are still going to see a comparative lack of security, due to the reasons above.
- An increase in murderboning; as everyone knows security is powerless OOC to stop it, as the only effective tactics might get them BWOINKED. Currently this is a case of "which admin is on currently, and which rules are they picky about?"
- Idiotic, stupid and/or tiding tactics such as lubing chemists, banana-slipping clowns and/or stunprod-wielding assistants being the most effective and/or most acceptable line of defense against antagonists. The "higher standard" rule shouldn't lead to non-security players playing vigilante security because it is "safer" banwise, but this is exactly what is happening.

Point two: Not all complaints are made equal. "A lot of people complained about you," on its own, is not evidence enough against a player. I realize I have a dog in this race, having submitted an admincomplaint recently over this very thing, but: When graytiders, antags and other people get dunked, they are likely to complain about it -- solely because they got dunked. Their definition of "powergaming" is "i lost, plz nerf," or in this case, "i lost, plz ban." I believe this is the reason why security is the sole policy target of anti-powergaming, rather than antags (there are anti-powergaming efforts for antags, but they are mostly on the code side and met with resistance): security can't complain about any powergaming an antag does under our current rules, and the sort of people who gray tide are also the sort of people who are likely to whine about security.
"I don't see any difference between ERP and rape." -- erro

admin feedback pls
callanrockslol
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:47 pm
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Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Post by callanrockslol » #31981

Malkevin wrote:Truth
The most excessive signature on /tg/station13.

Still not even at the limit after 8 fucking years.
Spoiler:
Urist Boatmurdered [Security] asks, "Why does Zol have a captain-level ID?"
Zol Interbottom [Security] says, "because"

Sergie Borris lives on in our hearts

Zaros (No id) [145.9] says, "WITH MY SUPER WIZARD POWERS I CAN TELL CALLAN IS MAD."
Anderson Conagher wrote:Callan is sense.
Errorage wrote:When I see the win vista, win 7 and win 8 hourglass cursor, it makes me happy
Cause it's a circle spinning around
I smile and make circular motions with my finger to imiatate it
petethegoat wrote:slap a comment on it and call it a feature
MisterPerson wrote:>playing
Do you think this is a game?
Gun Hog wrote:Untested code baby
oranges wrote:for some reason all our hosts turn into bohemia software communities after they implode
Malkevin wrote:I was the only one that voted for you Callan.
Miggles wrote:>centration development
>trucking
ill believe it when snakes grow arms and strangle me with them

OOC: Aranclanos: that sounds like ooc in ooc related to ic to be ooc and confuse the ic
OOC: Dionysus24779: We're nearing a deep philosophical extistential level

Admin PM from-Jordie0608: 33-Jan-2552| Warned: Is a giraffe dork ~tony abbott

OOC: Saegrimr: That wasn't a call to pray right now callan jesus christ you're fast.

OOC: Eaglendia: Glad I got to see the rise, fall, rise, and fall of Zol

OOC: Armhulenn: CALLAN
OOC: Armhulenn: YOU MELTED MY FUCKING REVOLVER
OOC: Armhulenn: AND THEN
OOC: Armhulenn: GAVE ME MELTING MELONS
OOC: Armhulenn: GOD FUCKING BLESS YOU
OOC: Armhulenn: you know what's hilarious though
OOC: Armhulenn: I melted ANOTHER TRAITOR'S REVOLVER AFTER THAT

7/8/2016 never forget
Armhulen wrote:
John_Oxford wrote:>implying im not always right
all we're saying is that you're not crag son
bandit wrote:we already have a punishment for using our code for your game, it's called using our code for your game
The evil holoparasite user I can't believe its not DIO and his holoparasite I can't believe its not Skub have been defeated by the Spacedust Crusaders, but what has been taken from the station can never be returned.

OOC: TheGel: Literally a guy in a suit with a shuttle full of xenos. That's a doozy
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cedarbridge
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
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Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Post by cedarbridge » #31985

Saegrimr wrote:
Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Not to mention that BWOINK means only that admin wants you to explain your actions because he doesn't know all the facts.
This, we're just trying to get the whole story outta both of you, since most of the time its entirely one sided "HALP I PERMAD FOR NO RAISIN" so its either pull up a 10mb .txt file and search through the lines, or just ask the other person and compare stories, and match it up to the attack logs if related.
Even then, its justifiably stressful for a SO (more specifically the warden since he should be the one in charge of the brig in the first place) to deal with OOC issues for IC interactions. Especially since its special only to sec.
Lo6a4evskiy
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:40 pm
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Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Post by Lo6a4evskiy » #32014

>not replying "just a minute please" if you're busy to an admin who is flying above you and can see if you're busy or not
Jee, people really don't know how to handle ahelps, eh?
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cedarbridge
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
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Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Post by cedarbridge » #32156

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:>not replying "just a minute please" if you're busy to an admin who is flying above you and can see if you're busy or not
Jee, people really don't know how to handle ahelps, eh?
I can't help but feel you are intentionally missing the point. Its not "oh god I've got to deal with more shit right this second" its an additional burden that's literally inflicted on zero other departments in the game. Applying "a higher standard" to one department while not doing so to others and doing so via OOC means is doing exactly that. Adding additional burdens to a department with enough shit to deal with already IC. It has nothing to do with time constraints but rather with "if I do this thing that I really should rationally be doing IC going to get me shit OOC because the shitler is going to whine?" I mean, forcing sec to be half-admins is essentially what it comes down to at that point.
Lo6a4evskiy
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:40 pm
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Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Post by Lo6a4evskiy » #32326

cedarbridge wrote:I can't help but feel you are intentionally missing the point.
I guess I am still doing it, because I don't get it. What burden are you talking about? It's not hard to describe what happened 1-10 minutes ago with some shitler.
cedarbridge wrote:that's literally inflicted on zero other departments in the game.
What are you talking about? If somebody ahelps you for being shit you can be bwoinked regardless of department. It's just usually you don't restraint people a MD.

Where exactly is the problem here? What do you suggest admins do? Ignore ahelps? Listen to only one side of the story?
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Psyentific
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:44 am
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Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Post by Psyentific » #32337

Lo6a4evskiy wrote: Where exactly is the problem here? What do you suggest admins do? Ignore ahelps? Listen to only one side of the story?
>Where exactly is the problem here?
That it is somewhat common to be ahelped for doing my job

>What do you suggest admins do? Ignore ahelps? Listen to only one side of the story?
Give Security the benefit of the doubt. Or, rather, only step in as an administrator if they recieve ahelps from multiple people in the same round about the same security officer.
I haven't logged into SS13 in at least a year.
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paprika
Rarely plays
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Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Post by paprika » #32366

So basically every admin should be elyina then
Oldman Robustin wrote:It's an established meme that coders don't play this game.
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Psyentific
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Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Post by Psyentific » #32388

paprika wrote:So basically every admin should be elyina then
Unless they're being CDB, literally permabrigging people at the drop of a hat, it's an IC Issue.
I haven't logged into SS13 in at least a year.
Lo6a4evskiy
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:40 pm
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Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Post by Lo6a4evskiy » #32393

Psyentific wrote:Give Security the benefit of the doubt. Or, rather, only step in as an administrator if they recieve ahelps from multiple people in the same round about the same security officer.
Why would admins prioritize ahelps based on player's job? What, I can metagrudge exactly one person per round if I'm security officer?
Psyentific wrote:That it is somewhat common to be ahelped for doing my job
Yes, what is the problem here? Did you get falsely punished or something?
Malkevin

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Post by Malkevin » #32395

Why do people bother arguing with lo6?
He's an true idiot - I remember him throwing a bitch fit because I said I had plans to implement a banning system for constructs and golems
callanrockslol
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:47 pm
Byond Username: Callanrockslol

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Post by callanrockslol » #32405

Psyentific wrote:
paprika wrote:So basically every admin should be elyina then
Unless they're being CDB, literally permabrigging people at the drop of a hat, it's an IC Issue.
Given thats exactly what Space Law says to do its an IC issue anyway.
The most excessive signature on /tg/station13.

Still not even at the limit after 8 fucking years.
Spoiler:
Urist Boatmurdered [Security] asks, "Why does Zol have a captain-level ID?"
Zol Interbottom [Security] says, "because"

Sergie Borris lives on in our hearts

Zaros (No id) [145.9] says, "WITH MY SUPER WIZARD POWERS I CAN TELL CALLAN IS MAD."
Anderson Conagher wrote:Callan is sense.
Errorage wrote:When I see the win vista, win 7 and win 8 hourglass cursor, it makes me happy
Cause it's a circle spinning around
I smile and make circular motions with my finger to imiatate it
petethegoat wrote:slap a comment on it and call it a feature
MisterPerson wrote:>playing
Do you think this is a game?
Gun Hog wrote:Untested code baby
oranges wrote:for some reason all our hosts turn into bohemia software communities after they implode
Malkevin wrote:I was the only one that voted for you Callan.
Miggles wrote:>centration development
>trucking
ill believe it when snakes grow arms and strangle me with them

OOC: Aranclanos: that sounds like ooc in ooc related to ic to be ooc and confuse the ic
OOC: Dionysus24779: We're nearing a deep philosophical extistential level

Admin PM from-Jordie0608: 33-Jan-2552| Warned: Is a giraffe dork ~tony abbott

OOC: Saegrimr: That wasn't a call to pray right now callan jesus christ you're fast.

OOC: Eaglendia: Glad I got to see the rise, fall, rise, and fall of Zol

OOC: Armhulenn: CALLAN
OOC: Armhulenn: YOU MELTED MY FUCKING REVOLVER
OOC: Armhulenn: AND THEN
OOC: Armhulenn: GAVE ME MELTING MELONS
OOC: Armhulenn: GOD FUCKING BLESS YOU
OOC: Armhulenn: you know what's hilarious though
OOC: Armhulenn: I melted ANOTHER TRAITOR'S REVOLVER AFTER THAT

7/8/2016 never forget
Armhulen wrote:
John_Oxford wrote:>implying im not always right
all we're saying is that you're not crag son
bandit wrote:we already have a punishment for using our code for your game, it's called using our code for your game
The evil holoparasite user I can't believe its not DIO and his holoparasite I can't believe its not Skub have been defeated by the Spacedust Crusaders, but what has been taken from the station can never be returned.

OOC: TheGel: Literally a guy in a suit with a shuttle full of xenos. That's a doozy
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UtterNewbie
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:25 pm

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Post by UtterNewbie » #33966

2 weeks have passed and everyone besides security can still be hyper competent at their job.

Every other department is allowed flawless performance, why is it that only security is ganged upon?

Is it because you don't like security players being competent HotelBravoLima?
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Saegrimr
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:39 pm
Byond Username: Saegrimr

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Post by Saegrimr » #34008

UtterNewbie wrote:Is it because you don't like security players being competent HotelBravoLima?
I find that kind of funny considering I only ever see him play HoS.
tedward1337 wrote:Sae is like the racist grandad who everyone laughs at for being racist, but deep down we all know he's right.
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cedarbridge
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
Byond Username: Cedarbridge

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Post by cedarbridge » #34055

Saegrimr wrote:
UtterNewbie wrote:Is it because you don't like security players being competent HotelBravoLima?
I find that kind of funny considering I only ever see him play HoS.
Warden mostly I thought. I usually have to compete to get the spot.
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UtterNewbie
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:25 pm

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Post by UtterNewbie » #34075

I guess that makes sense, who better to enforce his own view onto security than the guy who plays just that.

Perhaps his way is the only right way to play sec, and anything else needs to be smacked down upon as power gaming. Come to think of it this entire incident was triggered when he ckeyed me into his HoS character because he had no time to play. I got a mass murderer with a beepsky and that's where he decided dragging beepsky is obviously powergaming. Also he told me yellow gloves on jobs that don't need them is powergaming. Also grav boots in zero gravity environment. I shit you not.

I wonder if he would have decided that having literal superpowers for no reason is also power gaming were he a CMO. Maybe viruses are in fact powergaming? Perhaps he should play RD so people don't powergame so hard there and make their personal autocloners, giant mechs and their own little chemistry. Maybe if he played the QM ordering insulated gloves would become powergaming because cargo techs have absolutely no reason to need them. Opening locked chests finally making it into policy?
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