Stun Combat Overhaul
- kevinz000
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Stun Combat Overhaul
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/33781
I'd like some comments that aren't immediately "CLOSE THIS FUCK YOU DONT EVEN BOTHER". Or that, I guess, if you really feel strongly about keeping the current system, but I feel like this would be interesting. All updates will be on the PR description, please check often if you're interested.
I'd like some comments that aren't immediately "CLOSE THIS FUCK YOU DONT EVEN BOTHER". Or that, I guess, if you really feel strongly about keeping the current system, but I feel like this would be interesting. All updates will be on the PR description, please check often if you're interested.
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
CLOSE THIS FUCK YOU DONT EVEN BOTHER
- kevinz000
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
do people like .357 revolvers that much? jesus christ.
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
Before: One shot stun, vs two shot kill. Stun might as well be a kill unless the traitor has adrenals
Without revolver nerf: Two shot stun, vs two shot kill.
With revolver nerf: Two shot stun, vs three shot kill.
Without revolver nerf: Two shot stun, vs two shot kill.
With revolver nerf: Two shot stun, vs three shot kill.
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- ShadowDimentio
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
Fucking with stuns is a recipe for catastrophic disaster, they're the central pillar that all of SS13's combat is built on.
The changes you're proposing are going to upset the whole game's balance as it stands, and at best we're looking at months of rebalancing issues, assuming the coders (read: you, since this is your project and thus your responsibility) don't just give up and revert it.
Worse still, you're tying this enormous change with a bunch of other nerfs to largely unrelated items under the umbrella of "ranged stuns", which is nigh on every ranged weapon on the game since stuns are, again, the pillar everything is built on.
This isn't going to end well. You're not likely to get this merged, and even if it does people are going to fucking hate it for how much it's going to upset everything.
The changes you're proposing are going to upset the whole game's balance as it stands, and at best we're looking at months of rebalancing issues, assuming the coders (read: you, since this is your project and thus your responsibility) don't just give up and revert it.
Worse still, you're tying this enormous change with a bunch of other nerfs to largely unrelated items under the umbrella of "ranged stuns", which is nigh on every ranged weapon on the game since stuns are, again, the pillar everything is built on.
This isn't going to end well. You're not likely to get this merged, and even if it does people are going to fucking hate it for how much it's going to upset everything.
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- kevinz000
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
I'm dropping the revolver nerf due to !popular! demand (apparently?) but I don't see how the others are unrelated considering they're also generally used for one hit ranged stuns.
I guess the bar chemicals are somewhat unrelated but over the past few months I've only seen them used in syringe guns.
I guess the bar chemicals are somewhat unrelated but over the past few months I've only seen them used in syringe guns.
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- ShadowDimentio
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
You're going to have a nightmarish time getting just your taser changes merged, not just because you're including with it a wildly unpopular idea (taser lasers) that was tried once and reverted because everyone hate it, but also because by you being the one that fucked with it in the first place you're responsible for the whole depth of balance issues that pop up because you fucked with tasers.kevinz000 wrote:I'm dropping the revolver nerf due to !popular! demand (apparently?) but I don't see how the others are unrelated considering they're also generally used for one hit ranged stuns.
I guess the bar chemicals are somewhat unrelated but over the past few months I've only seen them used in syringe guns.
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
stun combat is one of the worst things in ss13 shadowdimentio
You're deranged if you think experimenting is worse than sticking with our current formula
like kevinz said the point is to make it so that tasers still technically edge out revolvers as they did before. The net change is negligable and non armored targets still are 2 shot. This only changes damage breakpoints on armored targets, and the hos/captain/ballistic armor already had high enough values to raise the breakpoint to 3-4 shots.
kevinz please dont listen to people who dont play the game on keeping things the good old way they're all chronically retarded and have no idea on what they're talking about
You're deranged if you think experimenting is worse than sticking with our current formula
like kevinz said the point is to make it so that tasers still technically edge out revolvers as they did before. The net change is negligable and non armored targets still are 2 shot. This only changes damage breakpoints on armored targets, and the hos/captain/ballistic armor already had high enough values to raise the breakpoint to 3-4 shots.
kevinz please dont listen to people who dont play the game on keeping things the good old way they're all chronically retarded and have no idea on what they're talking about
- kevinz000
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
eh, i recalled the armor arguments we've had which is armor was becoming too much of an important item.
we'll see how revolvers pan out in the long run.
ebow rebalance is staying though, why would tasers be rebalanced if traitors still got infinite one hit stuns??
as for bar chems i'm on the edge but uhh syringe guns.
as for taser lasers i don't see how bad they can be, in the old system sec can already kill you easily if they get a one hit stun on you, what's different with light lasers?
we'll see how revolvers pan out in the long run.
ebow rebalance is staying though, why would tasers be rebalanced if traitors still got infinite one hit stuns??
as for bar chems i'm on the edge but uhh syringe guns.
as for taser lasers i don't see how bad they can be, in the old system sec can already kill you easily if they get a one hit stun on you, what's different with light lasers?
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
Here are my issues with light lasers:
- They serve as ranged, lethal weaponry that every officer has on them at all times without needing to access the armory, and gives them a reason to have it and not be under suspicion.
- Lasers shoot through windows as well as do burn damage, which massively nerfs blobs because every officer has additional lasers on them at all times. It also makes xenos more susceptible to a degree.
- A lethal sidearm is undeniably more effective at killing anything but a regular human than stunning is; trying to say otherwise is shortsighted. You can gun down a giant spider with no risk to yourself with a light laser, but you can't tase it and then baton it with the same degree of safety.
- It increases the amount of lethal ranged weaponry on the station hugely, from roundstart.
- It puts tasing and lasing into a single item. It was awful with energy guns, and it'll be awful here!
- It encourages security lasering people into softcrit to pacify them instead of tasering and arresting them, doubly so because tasers take two shots now.
- It gives security officers lasers! Come on! Do you know how ridiculous that sounds? Security are not military police, they are mallcops, and have been fluffed and painted that way until Steelpoint came along and started arming them to the teeth. It honestly strikes me as just stroking a powerboner by giving them all laser sidearms when you are well known to be a security main.
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- Oldman Robustin
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
You can't do this without addressing slips.
Slips are still overtuned in my view and this PR would absolutely ruin any semblance of balance if stuns remains as is. You can't gut ranged stuns and then keep one of the most spammable and effective stuns in the game around.
Slips are still overtuned in my view and this PR would absolutely ruin any semblance of balance if stuns remains as is. You can't gut ranged stuns and then keep one of the most spammable and effective stuns in the game around.
- ShadowDimentio
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
Consider walking.Oldman Robustin wrote:You can't do this without addressing slips.
Slips are still overtuned in my view and this PR would absolutely ruin any semblance of balance if stuns remains as is. You can't gut ranged stuns and then keep one of the most spammable and effective stuns in the game around.
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- kevinz000
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
robustin is correct
also xhuis we have admins for a reason but whatever i'll see what kor says about em, i could replace em with normal disablers lol
also xhuis we have admins for a reason but whatever i'll see what kor says about em, i could replace em with normal disablers lol
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- CPTANT
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
LOVE the 2 shot taser (wonder why).kevinz000 wrote:https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/33781
I'd like some comments that aren't immediately "CLOSE THIS FUCK YOU DONT EVEN BOTHER". Or that, I guess, if you really feel strongly about keeping the current system, but I feel like this would be interesting. All updates will be on the PR description, please check often if you're interested.
I don't know if decoupling health and stamina is a good idea. Seems odd that you are just as resilliant at 10 health as on full health. I think the slowdown reduction for stamina damage is the change the system needs. Though I think the right value would be a slowdown of 2, because 1 is really minimal.
The changes to stamina should be implemented regardless of any other overhaul that might be rejected, a functioning stamina system is mandatory for any changes to how stuns work. I think the reduced slowdown is one of the last steps for that. Stamina is already in a way better place than it was before, I personally really like how the increased stamina regen on knockdown turned out.
Also why not just let tasers do 60 stamina damage or so? This prevents them from having special rules that are inconsistent with the way stamina damage works. Also I am not really sure what the effect of an increased clickdelay would be be, the old idea was to let the first taser shot disarm.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
- Stickymayhem
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
As someone who already finds it fairly easy to hike security all the time the lack of game over stun moments is going to make that even easier for shitters like me and immensely frustrating for the majority of officers who aren't as robust as you Kevinz.
We've tried this multiple times and a ranged instant stun option is the only thing that really works. SS13 has a deep enough combat system for what it needs to do
Also why would you change stamina in this way. I'd like to see some justifications for these new designs rather than just "Here's some changes". How does the game benefit.
We've tried this multiple times and a ranged instant stun option is the only thing that really works. SS13 has a deep enough combat system for what it needs to do
Also why would you change stamina in this way. I'd like to see some justifications for these new designs rather than just "Here's some changes". How does the game benefit.
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- CPTANT
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
I do not think addressing stuns is a prerequisite for the overhaul suggested here. Might be a good idea, but it just don't think its necessary to include in the scope.Oldman Robustin wrote:You can't do this without addressing slips.
Slips are still overtuned in my view and this PR would absolutely ruin any semblance of balance if stuns remains as is. You can't gut ranged stuns and then keep one of the most spammable and effective stuns in the game around.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
- CPTANT
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
The light laser does 10 damage, you have to literally hit every shot on an unarmored target to even crit one person.Xhuis wrote:Here are my issues with light lasers:
- They serve as ranged, lethal weaponry that every officer has on them at all times without needing to access the armory, and gives them a reason to have it and not be under suspicion.
- Lasers shoot through windows as well as do burn damage, which massively nerfs blobs because every officer has additional lasers on them at all times. It also makes xenos more susceptible to a degree.
- A lethal sidearm is undeniably more effective at killing anything but a regular human than stunning is; trying to say otherwise is shortsighted. You can gun down a giant spider with no risk to yourself with a light laser, but you can't tase it and then baton it with the same degree of safety.
- It increases the amount of lethal ranged weaponry on the station hugely, from roundstart.
- It puts tasing and lasing into a single item. It was awful with energy guns, and it'll be awful here!
- It encourages security lasering people into softcrit to pacify them instead of tasering and arresting them, doubly so because tasers take two shots now.
- It gives security officers lasers! Come on! Do you know how ridiculous that sounds? Security are not military police, they are mallcops, and have been fluffed and painted that way until Steelpoint came along and started arming them to the teeth. It honestly strikes me as just stroking a powerboner by giving them all laser sidearms when you are well known to be a security main.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
- Saegrimr
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
Basically if stamina wont slow you, they're just going to lethal you until the HP loss slows you.CPTANT wrote:The light laser does 10 damage, you have to literally hit every shot on an unarmored target to even crit one person.:roll:
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
If you want stuns to matter less make straight up damage better.
Add more health complications for having taken damage, make bones break, make bleeding faster, make near crit people almost incapacitated. Pseudo bay med it and require surgery to fix said complications, or make surgery the fastest way and add slow fix chems so Mr Lone wolf can nurse his almost blown off arm very slowly regenerating it on slowly metabolised bone and skin mending chems clapping himself on the back for how independent he is.
Honestly don't get why self treatment must remain king the antags get the high damage stuff anyway.
You know what made the stun meta worse? Soft crit. Remove that and fuck you trying to replace stamina + lost health stunning and replace it with snowflake thresholds.
The wounded fearing the disabler was a great quality being hurt should make you worse in every way not make you a limbo champion after 100 damage.
You exchange a revolver shot with a taser bolt yeah you should be stunned but he should be essentially dying unless he gets medical attention and not piss poor slowly like current bleeding.
Add more health complications for having taken damage, make bones break, make bleeding faster, make near crit people almost incapacitated. Pseudo bay med it and require surgery to fix said complications, or make surgery the fastest way and add slow fix chems so Mr Lone wolf can nurse his almost blown off arm very slowly regenerating it on slowly metabolised bone and skin mending chems clapping himself on the back for how independent he is.
Honestly don't get why self treatment must remain king the antags get the high damage stuff anyway.
You know what made the stun meta worse? Soft crit. Remove that and fuck you trying to replace stamina + lost health stunning and replace it with snowflake thresholds.
The wounded fearing the disabler was a great quality being hurt should make you worse in every way not make you a limbo champion after 100 damage.
You exchange a revolver shot with a taser bolt yeah you should be stunned but he should be essentially dying unless he gets medical attention and not piss poor slowly like current bleeding.
Last edited by Incomptinence on Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
- kevinz000
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
One of the complaints with CPTNT's attempt was that tasers still slowed after one shot so in reality they were getting buffed, which is why I was hesistant on the stamina damage.
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
Make stamina not do slowdown and keep it otherwise the same then?
I mean I know you piss weak fools want a stun system gone with no intervening statuses to make events (oh their clickrate gonna be slowed a lil!) matter short of all shots hit perfect score but that should sort it out.
I mean I know you piss weak fools want a stun system gone with no intervening statuses to make events (oh their clickrate gonna be slowed a lil!) matter short of all shots hit perfect score but that should sort it out.
- kevinz000
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
on light lasers: i'd like to hear kor's opinion of that (and the entire thing) before I continue, so I guess this is on hold for 16 hours or until he wakes up.
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- CPTANT
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
Yeah but you are reducing the slowdown for all stamina damage anyway.kevinz000 wrote:One of the complaints with CPTNT's attempt was that tasers still slowed after one shot so in reality they were getting buffed, which is why I was hesistant on the stamina damage.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
kinda like this system and hope it works out, good luck my man.
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
All for a stun overhaul but Robustin is correct in that slips need to be addressed as well.
- kevinz000
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
right mirroring what i said on the pr: im going to just read and not update (codewise, discussion still goes on.) the pr until kor gets online to comment on it, as i'd like to know from him if this in general is even a remotely good direction to push sooo :shrug:
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
I'm 50/50 on this. There's some aspects of it I really like, such as turning the taser into a two shot stun and stamina damage slowing down how fast you can attack stuff. Other aspects I despise, such as taser lasers and nerfing the bar chems.
- CPTANT
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
What's the problem with the light taser? It's damage is so low that it basically only has a use against critters.Calibraptor wrote:I'm 50/50 on this. There's some aspects of it I really like, such as turning the taser into a two shot stun and stamina damage slowing down how fast you can attack stuff. Other aspects I despise, such as taser lasers and nerfing the bar chems.
It is more a way of keeping the hybrid taser interesting.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
- Calibraptor
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
You underestimate the power of shitcurity. I strongly oppose giving security officers /any/ form of lethals at round-start.CPTANT wrote:What's the problem with the light taser? It's damage is so low that it basically only has a use against critters.Calibraptor wrote:I'm 50/50 on this. There's some aspects of it I really like, such as turning the taser into a two shot stun and stamina damage slowing down how fast you can attack stuff. Other aspects I despise, such as taser lasers and nerfing the bar chems.
It is more a way of keeping the hybrid taser interesting.
- Stickymayhem
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
Why is this inherently bad for a game based on paranoia and the potential for quick deaths? How do you compensate for more call-outs? How does security capture the random obnoxious shitters effectively?TL;DR: I want combat to have more than "click them before they click you with a taser".
The defining attribute in SS13 combat is mobility. Reducing your opponent's mobility to 0 is always going to be the priority to secure damage. What are the alternatives? Chasing with a high force weapon is always going to be ineffective because every click is difficult. Lasering people is similarly difficult to rely on.I want combat stuns to be relevant but not THE method of combat.
The entire purpose of stamina damage is to get people through windows and stop people winning just by running in circles around you. The slowdown is a good mechanic and differentiates it from instant stuns as a longer range option for controlling mobilityI want stamina to be a useful combat mechanic without being an immediate game over due to the slowdown it adds that makes you basically helpless.
Anyway I think "One-click and you're arrested/dead" is actually a decent system. It makes combat quick, deadly and stressful. Tasers already have ways to counter-act them. Windows, the long delay allowing disarm spam, limited ammo and short range, slow projectiles are all abusable.
I think as usual, people will debate on the forums and github, you'll make the changes thinking it has some support and then the less-vocal majority of actual players will throw a shitfit until it's reverted. We've been through this before.
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
I think it's important to note that it's very easy to just carry around two tasers as a security officer. I already see people do it so that dual-wielding them in disable mode allows you to spray down a hallway, and I can see it being the same with light lasers. Any kind of ranged, rechargeable lethals are very powerful even if they were to do maybe 5 damage per shot.CPTANT wrote:The light laser does 10 damage, you have to literally hit every shot on an unarmored target to even crit one person.
I'm an ex-coder for /tg/. I made the original versions of clockcult, shadowlings, revenants, His Grace, and other stuff.
I don't play, code, or participate in the community, but I occasionally post dumb stuff in the hut.
I don't play, code, or participate in the community, but I occasionally post dumb stuff in the hut.
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CitrusGender wrote:We've ended up disabling clockcult on sybil and bagil now (terry is having some problems.) We will give Xhuis some time until he wishes to work upon it again. As of now, please use this thread for ideas and not for bickering.
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- Limski
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
Taser quickdraw duels are fun in their own right, just saying.
- CPTANT
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
But to get an extra taser you need to get into the armory and if you have access to the armory I have no idea why you don't just grab a laser gun instead.Xhuis wrote:I think it's important to note that it's very easy to just carry around two tasers as a security officer. I already see people do it so that dual-wielding them in disable mode allows you to spray down a hallway, and I can see it being the same with light lasers. Any kind of ranged, rechargeable lethals are very powerful even if they were to do maybe 5 damage per shot.CPTANT wrote:The light laser does 10 damage, you have to literally hit every shot on an unarmored target to even crit one person.
I don't think you can call a 10 damage 10 shot lethal powerful when disablers knock you out in 3 shots and have twice as many shots.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
- CPTANT
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
But why wouldn't they be with a 2 shot taser? It lengthens the engagement a bit, meaning a slightly longer time of high intensity shooting.Limski wrote:Taser quickdraw duels are fun in their own right, just saying.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
- D&B
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
Problem I see with it is that confusion only furthers the way you can dodge further shots and the slowdown won't be enough for officers to land following shots.
Would be better if it worked like Hippie or /vg/ where being taser shot makes you drop the items on your person and gives you a brief time of movement before having the stun itself kick in.
Would be better if it worked like Hippie or /vg/ where being taser shot makes you drop the items on your person and gives you a brief time of movement before having the stun itself kick in.
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- John_Oxford
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
>people who have been here less than two years suddenly proclaiming that stun combat is by far the worst thing to have ever blessed the god forsaken metal death trap of space station 13
stun combat has been more or less the same since the game came out, the games combat system has been built around it, changing it now is changing the games entire combat system.
im 100% positive none of you arm chair coders have the dedication or time to completely rewrite the game's -entire- combat system.
so let's stop being dense and stop trying to fuck with stuns
stun combat has been more or less the same since the game came out, the games combat system has been built around it, changing it now is changing the games entire combat system.
im 100% positive none of you arm chair coders have the dedication or time to completely rewrite the game's -entire- combat system.
so let's stop being dense and stop trying to fuck with stuns
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- Denton
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
You'll have to rework slips, stun chems and some other stamina/sleep chems as well. Absolute madman.
- kevinz000
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
3 and when's the last time you played? :^)John_Oxford wrote:>people who have been here less than two years suddenly proclaiming that stun combat is by far the worst thing to have ever blessed the god forsaken metal death trap of space station 13
stun combat has been more or less the same since the game came out, the games combat system has been built around it, changing it now is changing the games entire combat system.
im 100% positive none of you arm chair coders have the dedication or time to completely rewrite the game's -entire- combat system.
so let's stop being dense and stop trying to fuck with stuns
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Usually seen as Skylar Lineman/Mekhi Anderson.
Commissions way too much art...
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 7&p=239075 - IN GAME ADMINISTRATOR
Usually seen as Skylar Lineman/Mekhi Anderson.
Commissions way too much art...
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 7&p=239075 - IN GAME ADMINISTRATOR
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- Stickymayhem
- Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:13 pm
- Byond Username: Stickymayhem
Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
CAN YOU FUCKING PLEASE ACTUALLY MAKE SOME JUSTIFICATIONS OR COUNTERPOINTS OR SOMETHING INSTEAD OF JUST RANDOMLY FIDDLING WITH IT LIKE THE LAST 5 CODERS THANKS PLS
Boris wrote:Sticky is a jackass who has worms where his brain should be, but he also gets exactly what SS13 should be
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
Just last month before being banned, if I remember correctly
- BeeSting12
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
I saw him on the server last night.kevinz000 wrote:3 and when's the last time you played? :^)John_Oxford wrote:>people who have been here less than two years suddenly proclaiming that stun combat is by far the worst thing to have ever blessed the god forsaken metal death trap of space station 13
stun combat has been more or less the same since the game came out, the games combat system has been built around it, changing it now is changing the games entire combat system.
im 100% positive none of you arm chair coders have the dedication or time to completely rewrite the game's -entire- combat system.
so let's stop being dense and stop trying to fuck with stuns
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- Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:10 pm
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
Wasnt he perma banned and his appeal denied?BeeSting12 wrote:I saw him on the server last night.kevinz000 wrote:3 and when's the last time you played? :^)John_Oxford wrote:>people who have been here less than two years suddenly proclaiming that stun combat is by far the worst thing to have ever blessed the god forsaken metal death trap of space station 13
stun combat has been more or less the same since the game came out, the games combat system has been built around it, changing it now is changing the games entire combat system.
im 100% positive none of you arm chair coders have the dedication or time to completely rewrite the game's -entire- combat system.
so let's stop being dense and stop trying to fuck with stuns
- kevinz000
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
Stickymayhem wrote:Why is this inherently bad for a game based on paranoia and the potential for quick deaths? How do you compensate for more call-outs? How does security capture the random obnoxious shitters effectively?TL;DR: I want combat to have more than "click them before they click you with a taser".
getting the drop on someone is still extremely lethal as you will get the first hit in before they do but it makes combat not an immediate game over because you didn't quickdraw before they did which is even easier when we have QUICKDRAW HOTKEYS COUGH COUGH NINJANOMNOM but that's off topic. you could call out before anyways, tasers don't mute you. security uses a taser per usual as they have more shots.The defining attribute in SS13 combat is mobility. Reducing your opponent's mobility to 0 is always going to be the priority to secure damage. What are the alternatives? Chasing with a high force weapon is always going to be ineffective because every click is difficult. Lasering people is similarly difficult to rely on.I want combat stuns to be relevant but not THE method of combat.
old tasers didn't do anything about mobility but disablers did. if ranged stuns are nerfed having a higher clickdelay actually means something far more in non-melee combat so stamina damage still does alot without being an instant win.
i'm going to do something about per limb targetting and see if i can make targetting different areas more useful and stuff.The entire purpose of stamina damage is to get people through windows and stop people winning just by running in circles around you. The slowdown is a good mechanic and differentiates it from instant stuns as a longer range option for controlling mobilityI want stamina to be a useful combat mechanic without being an immediate game over due to the slowdown it adds that makes you basically helpless.
we didn't have disablers commonplace until long after i came to tg. back before that we had 50 tile instastuns. this isn't something that has been around forever, and i don't think being slowed to uselessness within two shots that takes like a full minute to recover is fun just like one hit stuns.
Anyway I think "One-click and you're arrested/dead" is actually a decent system. It makes combat quick, deadly and stressful. Tasers already have ways to counter-act them. Windows, the long delay allowing disarm spam, limited ammo and short range, slow projectiles are all abusable.
what long delay? it was removed. its projectiles are as fast as any other projectile. short range is a thing and the new ones will have a longer range. combat is still stressful as you will still get stunned and therefore killed it just takes more than a single hit.
I think as usual, people will debate on the forums and github, you'll make the changes thinking it has some support and then the less-vocal majority of actual players will throw a shitfit until it's reverted. We've been through this before.
which is why we're likely to have a server poll if testmerges are successful before it's considered for merging right? :^)
Local catgirl scratching post - Shezza
Usually seen as Skylar Lineman/Mekhi Anderson.
Commissions way too much art...
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 7&p=239075 - IN GAME ADMINISTRATOR
Usually seen as Skylar Lineman/Mekhi Anderson.
Commissions way too much art...
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 7&p=239075 - IN GAME ADMINISTRATOR
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- PKPenguin321
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
about to read the PR, inb4 it's stamina damage bullshit
i play Lauser McMauligan. clown name is Cold-Ass Honkey
i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
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- CPTANT
- Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 1:31 pm
- Byond Username: CPTANT
Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
Whats still bullshit about stamina damage?PKPenguin321 wrote:about to read the PR, inb4 it's stamina damage bullshit
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
>it actually nerfs stamina damage
ok not bad
as for deciding against unlinking health and stamina damage, i think it should go all the way and be unlinked especially with the light lasers thing (since if they're already damaged then you can just use the light laser to dispatch them more quickly and they're still at a disadvantage). stamina damage stacking with regular damage and still applying stuns means you can still knock somebody over with a disabler, then chainstun them with brute weapons which is the easiest and most lethal chainstun in the game (literally just bash them with a stick and they're chainstunned and being killed at the same time)
i really really like the slowdown nerf for disablers, that was always a massive point to their strength. click cooldown changes seem to put emphasis on running from a guy with a disabler rather than fighting back which seems appropriate, can't be sure if it's a good thing though.
only thing i really dislike is the ebow change, i get that keeping a damaging ranged infinite ammo stun sounds stupid in concept but i think this is too much in the other direction, like it's way too weak for how much it costs now.
additional thoughts:
would like if kev could expand on what neurotoxin's "other effects" are since he says it no longer instantly stuns but doesn't really explain
leave the temp gun be, thot
overall it's probably one of the least awful stun overhauls in a while mainly because it doesn't rely on the current shitty broken implementation of disablers/stamina damage. worth at least trying, even if i'm not crazy about overhauling combat in the first place.
ok not bad
as for deciding against unlinking health and stamina damage, i think it should go all the way and be unlinked especially with the light lasers thing (since if they're already damaged then you can just use the light laser to dispatch them more quickly and they're still at a disadvantage). stamina damage stacking with regular damage and still applying stuns means you can still knock somebody over with a disabler, then chainstun them with brute weapons which is the easiest and most lethal chainstun in the game (literally just bash them with a stick and they're chainstunned and being killed at the same time)
i really really like the slowdown nerf for disablers, that was always a massive point to their strength. click cooldown changes seem to put emphasis on running from a guy with a disabler rather than fighting back which seems appropriate, can't be sure if it's a good thing though.
only thing i really dislike is the ebow change, i get that keeping a damaging ranged infinite ammo stun sounds stupid in concept but i think this is too much in the other direction, like it's way too weak for how much it costs now.
additional thoughts:
would like if kev could expand on what neurotoxin's "other effects" are since he says it no longer instantly stuns but doesn't really explain
leave the temp gun be, thot
overall it's probably one of the least awful stun overhauls in a while mainly because it doesn't rely on the current shitty broken implementation of disablers/stamina damage. worth at least trying, even if i'm not crazy about overhauling combat in the first place.
i play Lauser McMauligan. clown name is Cold-Ass Honkey
i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
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- CPTANT
- Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 1:31 pm
- Byond Username: CPTANT
Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
Honestly if you can bash a person with 100 stamina damage with a toolbox than you can also apply just another disabler hit or any other form of stun while you kill him anyway.
I think reaching 100 stamina damage should reflect a state in which you have lost the engagement, just like getting 100 regular damage is.
I think reaching 100 stamina damage should reflect a state in which you have lost the engagement, just like getting 100 regular damage is.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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- Joined: Fri May 02, 2014 3:01 am
- Byond Username: Incomptinence
Re: Stun Combat Overhaul
The typical user of disablers is security the gear of which includes a stunning baton to beat you to death with anyway.
Also if we are afraid of the big bad chain stun (WEAKLING) just make stamina stuns have a fixed cool down.
Also if we are afraid of the big bad chain stun (WEAKLING) just make stamina stuns have a fixed cool down.
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