Testmerging seems to be a PITA for everyone
- Oldman Robustin
- Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 2:18 pm
- Byond Username: ForcefulCJS
Testmerging seems to be a PITA for everyone
Testmerging is an extremely valuable tool but the way its utilized right now is awful.
On the maintainer/headmin side its the source of a relentless stream of begging/nagging. Then if something goes wrong it's another flurry of messaging to get someone to take it down.
From the coder side its horribly underutilized. The coder has almost no idea when or where its been testmerged unless they're there personally lobbying for it (and even then they might miss it if they don't hear back immediately). Its incredibly disruptive to workflow when you're sitting around with nothing to do but can't progress until testing, then when testing is finally done you're working on something else and have to drop everything to address issues while they're still fresh and witnesses are around to describe what went wrong. More commonly, stuff just gets merged with little to no testing, the coder can never predict when the merge is going to happen, then you get a litany of bugs that would've been caught during testing and now the coder either has to drop everything and fix them or buggy code just sits around because reality called and the coder has shit to do.
I think everyone agrees that more feedback is likely to yield a better final product, coders are much more incentivized to polish up their work if theres reported bugs/complaints sitting in an unmerged PR rather than sitting in an 1,100 item issue list with a vague title. What can we do to improve this process? Could it be automated based on "test merge candidate" tagging and limited + scheduled test windows? Can we give ordinary admins the ability to remove test merges so that testmergers don't feel like they have to babysit a test merge if something goes wrong - or alternatively, if they don't babysit the test, so that we can remove broken test PRs?
On the maintainer/headmin side its the source of a relentless stream of begging/nagging. Then if something goes wrong it's another flurry of messaging to get someone to take it down.
From the coder side its horribly underutilized. The coder has almost no idea when or where its been testmerged unless they're there personally lobbying for it (and even then they might miss it if they don't hear back immediately). Its incredibly disruptive to workflow when you're sitting around with nothing to do but can't progress until testing, then when testing is finally done you're working on something else and have to drop everything to address issues while they're still fresh and witnesses are around to describe what went wrong. More commonly, stuff just gets merged with little to no testing, the coder can never predict when the merge is going to happen, then you get a litany of bugs that would've been caught during testing and now the coder either has to drop everything and fix them or buggy code just sits around because reality called and the coder has shit to do.
I think everyone agrees that more feedback is likely to yield a better final product, coders are much more incentivized to polish up their work if theres reported bugs/complaints sitting in an unmerged PR rather than sitting in an 1,100 item issue list with a vague title. What can we do to improve this process? Could it be automated based on "test merge candidate" tagging and limited + scheduled test windows? Can we give ordinary admins the ability to remove test merges so that testmergers don't feel like they have to babysit a test merge if something goes wrong - or alternatively, if they don't babysit the test, so that we can remove broken test PRs?
- D&B
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Re: Testmerging seems to be a PITA for everyone
Can't you host your own server for 15 minutes to test it
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- Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:11 am
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Re: Testmerging seems to be a PITA for everyone
sometimes you can't find all the bugs yourself.Some will occur only on server with many people.
But test merge shedule will be a thing.
But test merge shedule will be a thing.
- PKPenguin321
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Re: Testmerging seems to be a PITA for everyone
obviously but many bugs or balance changes can't be found or fully tested by yourselfD&B wrote:Can't you host your own server for 15 minutes to test it
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i have three other top secret characters as well.
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tell the best admin how good he is
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- Atlanta-Ned
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Re: Testmerging seems to be a PITA for everyone
I wish admins had more guidance on testmerged PRs so we can specifically skew the round to test whatever needs to be tested.
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- Oldman Robustin
- Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 2:18 pm
- Byond Username: ForcefulCJS
Re: Testmerging seems to be a PITA for everyone
I test extremely thoroughly but there's shit that you just won't catch alone.D&B wrote:Can't you host your own server for 15 minutes to test it
Like my Box Update shit itself last Friday over canvases. I added persistent art, during local testing I had made several pieces and they saved/loaded just fine.
Then it went live and after the mime found out he could immortalize his work he went and did some complex canvas art and suddenly nobody could even look near the art gallery without their client going into permacrash.
I rushed some fixes (mostly removing canvases from the box update) but its been 5 days and I still haven't been able to test it further.
Its also other shit like "the shutters you put in to secure something can be broken with a mere fireaxe" that testing helps reveal. Often its a lot of general feedback too, UI stuff, little things that work as intended but people have impressions/suggestions that let you refine them. Like I said coder motivation to make their code as appealing as possible is at its PEAK during the inaugural PR, you're much likely to see minor improvements then than waiting for a merge and then hoping someone cares enough to open a feedback thread/PR/issue explaining where your code falls short.
After the Box update I want to work on Techwebs, which is still missing basic features,but im already giving me PTSD flashbacks to waiting around IRC for weeks trying to find someone to testmerge. Even during the test that revealed CRITICAL issues with canvases, I had to repeatedly beg Cyberboss who finally gave in with "I'm going to regret this".
That's basically where things stand. I'm going to lose another week of coding at this rate just waiting for another testmerge.
- oranges
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Re: Testmerging seems to be a PITA for everyone
150 hours of testing lol
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Re: Testmerging seems to be a PITA for everyone
This should get better next term, current headmins are all busy or burned out. We lost a key holder when Shadowlight got deadminned as well.
MSO is also slowly trialing giving remote to all maintainers.
MSO is also slowly trialing giving remote to all maintainers.
- oranges
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Re: Testmerging seems to be a PITA for everyone
WHENKor wrote:This should get better next term, current headmins are all busy or burned out. We lost a key holder when Shadowlight got deadminned as well.
MSO is also slowly trialing giving remote to all maintainers.
- Bawhoppennn
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Re: Testmerging seems to be a PITA for everyone
Can't you stay satisfied being heir apparent for both headcoder AND host, should either Kor or MSO leave for whatever reason?oranges wrote: WHEN
I consider myself a /tg/station historian. If you're interested in the server history at all, feel free to ask me and I'll try and get you an answer! #ConcurForever
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<+KorPhaeron> people who don't like rng are not from /tg/ and are likely redditors
<KorMobile> you're a hero
[21:20:53] <%oranges> Baw "has cute legs" hoppen
DEAD: ADMIN(Owegno) says, "Nothing lewd happens in adminbus sadly."
[07:13:57] <Rockdtben> Keep in mind that I'm an extremely successful and wealthy male in his late twenties.
(F) DEAD: Professor DonkPocket says, "Admins preventchaos with good messages"
OOC: Pogoman122: Fun fact if someone trespasses on your kitchen just turn them into a nugget
<+KorPhaeron> russians have no souls so magic enrages them
<+KorPhaeron> people who don't like rng are not from /tg/ and are likely redditors
ausops wrote:apart from this there is literally nothing more to say other than that this is the first thread in five years to have achieved something.
- PKPenguin321
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Re: Testmerging seems to be a PITA for everyone
>maintainersKor wrote:This should get better next term, current headmins are all busy or burned out. We lost a key holder when Shadowlight got deadminned as well.
MSO is also slowly trialing giving remote to all maintainers.
>not gamemasters
grumble
i play Lauser McMauligan. clown name is Cold-Ass Honkey
i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
Spoiler:
- oranges
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Re: Testmerging seems to be a PITA for everyone
we actually know what we're doingPKPenguin321 wrote:>maintainersKor wrote:This should get better next term, current headmins are all busy or burned out. We lost a key holder when Shadowlight got deadminned as well.
MSO is also slowly trialing giving remote to all maintainers.
>not gamemasters
grumble
- Not-Dorsidarf
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Re: Testmerging seems to be a PITA for everyone
I like the idea of a schedule for test merge slots instead of just "whenever someone feels like it for however long they feel like it". At the very least ping the coder to tell them their testmerge is up or something
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- CPTANT
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Re: Testmerging seems to be a PITA for everyone
Not really feasible for anything that depends on the interaction of multiple people.D&B wrote:Can't you host your own server for 15 minutes to test it
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
- kevinz000
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Re: Testmerging seems to be a PITA for everyone
Oh shitoranges wrote:we actually know what we're doingPKPenguin321 wrote:>maintainersKor wrote:This should get better next term, current headmins are all busy or burned out. We lost a key holder when Shadowlight got deadminned as well.
MSO is also slowly trialing giving remote to all maintainers.
>not gamemasters
grumble
Local catgirl scratching post - Shezza
Usually seen as Skylar Lineman/Mekhi Anderson.
Commissions way too much art...
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 7&p=239075 - IN GAME ADMINISTRATOR
Usually seen as Skylar Lineman/Mekhi Anderson.
Commissions way too much art...
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 7&p=239075 - IN GAME ADMINISTRATOR
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- Oldman Robustin
- Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 2:18 pm
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Re: Testmerging seems to be a PITA for everyone
Don't see why Gamemasters couldn't as long as a maintainer threw up the test merge candidate tag (and assuming we use that tag appropriately).
- kevinz000
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Re: Testmerging seems to be a PITA for everyone
automated would have to use a snapshot of a pr, rather than directly, otherwise >get scheduled for testmerge >put in code that makes you god emperor headmin and disables the ban system before the system actually testmerges but after it's marked for testmerging >wreak havoc with your evading friends
see why only certain people can testmerge and only manually now?
see why only certain people can testmerge and only manually now?
Local catgirl scratching post - Shezza
Usually seen as Skylar Lineman/Mekhi Anderson.
Commissions way too much art...
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 7&p=239075 - IN GAME ADMINISTRATOR
Usually seen as Skylar Lineman/Mekhi Anderson.
Commissions way too much art...
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 7&p=239075 - IN GAME ADMINISTRATOR
NSFW:
- BeeSting12
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Re: Testmerging seems to be a PITA for everyone
Cant you just make tags auto remove if another commit is made
- MrStonedOne
- Host
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Re: Testmerging seems to be a PITA for everyone
Test merge candidate tag is nice, but it merely states that a maintainer thinks the thing needs to be test merged, it doesn't speak to rather or not anybody has actually reviewed the code to confirm its worthy of test merge. This is why it hasn't been too helpful at getting something test merged.
Maintainers have to be the ones who sign off on test merges, there isn't any other way, and unless maintainers stop slapping that tag on prs until they review them, the tag can't be a way of signing off on a test merge.
So until i bring all the maintainers in on test merges, I'd like to see coders stop going to headmins/key holders with test merge requests and instead go to maintainers with them, maintainers can then handle going to key holders with prs to test merge after they've reviewed the code.
Maintainers have to be the ones who sign off on test merges, there isn't any other way, and unless maintainers stop slapping that tag on prs until they review them, the tag can't be a way of signing off on a test merge.
So until i bring all the maintainers in on test merges, I'd like to see coders stop going to headmins/key holders with test merge requests and instead go to maintainers with them, maintainers can then handle going to key holders with prs to test merge after they've reviewed the code.
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- Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:11 am
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Re: Testmerging seems to be a PITA for everyone
why not just testmerge up to last marked commit commit?git allows very advanced code version juggling.
- oranges
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Re: Testmerging seems to be a PITA for everyone
They're going straight to the keyholders because we're ignoring 99% of peoples requests anyway, the fact that the keyholders aren't telling them to get lost is their problem, way to many people are treating the test merge system like it's there to help them find bugs, instead of being there to get feedback and balance issues.
- ninjanomnom
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Re: Testmerging seems to be a PITA for everyone
As of a couple weeks ago most if not all maintainers have testmerge access now
Narcissistic stuff others said/made for me
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- Cyberboss
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Re: Testmerging seems to be a PITA for everyone
This is a lot of future crafting BUT
TGSv4 is currently in the works. The primary draw of it is a complete rewrite of the API to make it much more similar to GitHub's json.
Unlike where only the specialized C# library communicate with the servers, the new web API gives us to the ability to create tools to automate interactions while keeping the layers of approval. For example, the repo bot already automatically removes test merge candidate if a coder changes their PR. It wouldn't be a far stretch to allow the bot to take the maintainer approval and allow the coder to initiate and remove the test merge when it is convenient for them. Something else planned for v4 is a comment attribute to test merges which can communicate intentions to admins while it's on.
This is all a lot of theory crafting though and, given the strict parameters I'm developing V4 with, I don't know when it'll ready for production use.
TGSv4 is currently in the works. The primary draw of it is a complete rewrite of the API to make it much more similar to GitHub's json.
Unlike where only the specialized C# library communicate with the servers, the new web API gives us to the ability to create tools to automate interactions while keeping the layers of approval. For example, the repo bot already automatically removes test merge candidate if a coder changes their PR. It wouldn't be a far stretch to allow the bot to take the maintainer approval and allow the coder to initiate and remove the test merge when it is convenient for them. Something else planned for v4 is a comment attribute to test merges which can communicate intentions to admins while it's on.
This is all a lot of theory crafting though and, given the strict parameters I'm developing V4 with, I don't know when it'll ready for production use.
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