Hey! Listen!
Toolboxing For A Cause 2.0
a /tg/Station13 Charity Tournament
Will begin Saturday the 12th at 1pm PST / 4pm EST / 8pm GMT at the Event Hall.
(You've donated r-right?)

[MrAlphonzo] Frebbie - Allowing Nonantag Murder of Nonantags

Moderators: In-Game Head Admins, In-Game Admin, Game Server Operators

User avatar
Frebbie
 
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:55 pm
Byond Username: Frebbie

[MrAlphonzo] Frebbie - Allowing Nonantag Murder of Nonantags

Postby Frebbie » Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:15 am #428544

Byond account and character name: Frebbie / Jamie Carmichael
Admin: MrAlphonzo
Time and Server(Bagil or Sybil) incident occurred: Sybil 2018-07-23 ~03:55:00
ROUND ID HERE: 91419

At approximately 03:55:00 server time I was murdered in round by a non-antagonist curator, Mateo Leech in the logs, for dragging the HOP locker, which was in the hallway when I found it, down the hallway. I was chased into maint, murdered, stripped, and had my ID stolen.

I immediately did an ahelp because this looked like taking validhunting to the point of breaking the server rules. Roaming the engineering hallway as the curator looking for excuses to kill people is suspicious. The curator was ultimately not an antagonist and did indeed murder-strip me in maint from what Alphonzo would describe in an ahelp as a "misunderstanding". The ahelp chain went as follows:

PM to-Admins: Mateo Leech decide to murder strip me in maint as the curator, and I think hes validhunting not an antag

Admin PM from-MrAlphonzo: Did you initiate a fight with them

PM to-Admins: no, he did with me, over me dragging the HOP locker which was in the halls to begin with. he murdered me because hes trying to validhunt as the curator. I told him to leave me alone easy way or the hard way and then he decided to chase me into maint and murder me

Admin PM from-MrAlphonzo: Vigilante justice.

- AdminHelp marked as IC issue! -
Losing is part of the game!
Your character will frequently die, sometimes without even a possibility of avoiding it. Events will often be out of your control. No matter how good or prepared you are, sometimes you just lose.

Your ticket has been resolved by an admin. The Adminhelp verb will be returned to you shortly.

Admin PM from-MrAlphonzo: Ah, I forgot to mention, it was vigilante justice based on a misunderstanding. They initiated and brought you to cloning, so it's all good.


I don't believe that MrAlphonzo's rationale for the murder being valid "Admin PM from-MrAlphonzo: Vigilante justice." was an appropriate conclusion because it hinges on his explanation "it was vigilante justice based on a misunderstanding. They initiated and brought you to cloning", when I was only brought to cloning after I made the ahelp and Alphonzo talked to the player playing as Mateo Leech. If Alphonzo hadn't spoken to the player, I would have remained stripped in maint, dead. Additionally, the player who killed me kept my ID which, given the lack of a HoP, irreversibly hindered my round.

By giving players an ex post facto pass for unprovoked murder so long as they bring the body to cloning after being bwoinked, this kind of judgement encourages and enables breaking of the server rules in ways that hurt the community. Taking players out of rounds or irreversibly hindering them as a non-antagonist is a decision that is only available to the captain or acting-captain head of staff with at least some reasoning. A security officer or HOP doing the same thing as this curator would likely face a job ban because it breaks rule #1 Don't be a dick. [We're all here to have a good time, supposedly. Going out of your way to seriously negatively impact or end the round for someone with little IC justification is against the rules. Legitimate conflicts where people get upset do happen however, as detailed in the escalation section of the rules."]

Rule 1 Precedents.

1. Random murders are not acceptable nor is the killing of other players for poor or little reasoning such as ‘My character is insane’. Each unjustified kill is normally met with one 24 ban.
...
4. Unprovoked grief (occasionally known as greytiding), repeated cases of minor unprovoked grief, and unprovoked grief targeted towards specific players or groups (i.e. metagrudging) fall under rule 1. Admins may follow up on grief with allowing the affected parties to ignore normal escalation policy or measures such as warnings or bans.
...
[Important in regards to "vigilante justice" conducted a handful of minutes into the round when security exists]

6. Players who attempt to break into the captain's office, head of personnel's office, or the bridge at or near roundstart for no legitimate reason put themselves at risk for being legitimately killed by the captain, heads of staff, or security.

7. You may defend your workplace from trespassers who damage or steal property within that space with significantly greater force than elsewhere. If someone is severely disruptive and returns after ejected, this opens them up to "fun" of the creative workplace death variety.
...


The case followed the classic server precedents for a ban while meeting none of the criteria for the nonantag, non-sec role player taking security into their own hands using lethal methods. It was a shitty situation, it happens, but the way that it was handled encourages it to happen again in the future and that means other people being unjustifiably taken out of the round or irreversibly hindered.

I want to be specific in that this is only a complaint about judgement and hope that MrAlphonzo can see why I am dissatisfied with the ruling and perhaps be more strict about nonantag murder in the future. This has nothing to do with his conduct or anything, he explained the situation, ruling, and rationale, which was helpful and appropriate. I hope that this is a reasonable and understandable case.



User avatar
MrAlphonzo
 
Joined: Thu May 05, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: U S A, U S A, U S A
Byond Username: MrAlphonzo

Re: [MrAlphonzo] Frebbie - Allowing Nonantag Murder of Nonantags

Postby MrAlphonzo » Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:23 am #428545

They were already dragging your body to cloning before I even began speaking to them.

Additionally, the HoP's locker falls under their respective department as the HoP is the head of service branch, the library being a part of said branch. However, even if they were from a different department, the crew is allowed to intervene when someone is seemingly violating space law in an extreme manner. The security on the station, at the time, was incompetent to the point of nonexistance. Somebody has to fill in.
Last edited by MrAlphonzo on Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Image
Image
Image

User avatar
mikeike545
 
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:48 pm
Byond Username: Mikeike545

Re: [MrAlphonzo] Frebbie - Allowing Nonantag Murder of Nonantags

Postby mikeike545 » Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:25 am #428546

Wow! Are you uh... Sure nothing else happened?
Are you sure?
Nothing else you wanna add to that?
Just that you were murdered?

Y'know, one time I was 10 minute banned for not including the fact that I had slipped and cuffed someone, despite the fact that it was irrelevant but the point stands. You're lying by omission here and that's simply not what had gone down entirely.

I chased you down as curator because you had what I assumed was the captains locker. Then, you pulled out what I assumed to be a stetch and curator whipped it out of your hands. I saw it was a russian revolver, and just assumed you were a shitter after that. Not an inaccurate assumption now that I think about it but beside the point. You then took the revolver back, and I put my whip away. We then engaged in a small fight in which you pushed me and beat me while I was down. Little did you know, because you chose to cherry pick the rules that helped you, escalation rules clearly state.

"If a player wrongs you(theft, attacks, etc), you may retaliate. If you choose to retaliate with violence, you in turn have opened yourself up to violence. If you choose this route, do not expect admins to help you out if you die, even if you were not the original instigator."

I attacked you because I assumed you had a stetch, and then stopped. You then punched and kicked me. That is violence. Despite me being the original instigator, I am now allowed to kill you. And you ignored the fact that you were also still trying to fight me during this. Can't act like defenseless lamb while ignoring what happened. And, via the rules page you didn't read, you can't ahelp or expect any administrative assistance because you decided to attack me back. Now, I'd recommend reading the next part of that.

"consider calling security, using non lethal means to subdue your opponent, fleeing, or otherwise working things out (talking them down, getting your stolen items replaced, etc)"

And no, actually, I wouldn't have left you dead. Escalation rules actually say I have to help you, so I was going to. And yes, he ahlped as I was dragging you out.

User avatar
Frebbie
 
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:55 pm
Byond Username: Frebbie

Re: [MrAlphonzo] Frebbie - Allowing Nonantag Murder of Nonantags

Postby Frebbie » Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:48 am #428548

mikeike545 wrote:Wow! Are you uh... Sure nothing else happened?
Are you sure?
Nothing else you wanna add to that?
Just that you were murdered?


If you can't start off your post in good faith how do you expect readers to take you seriously, least of all me? Your lack of using the say function in character is a pretty good place to start. How am I supposed to read your mind? What else do you want me to add?

Y'know, one time I was 10 minute banned for not including the fact that I had slipped and cuffed someone, despite the fact that it was irrelevant but the point stands. You're lying by omission here and that's simply not what had gone down entirely.


That's great but irrelevant to the topic at hand. This isn't a ban request for you and you aren't the topic of the complaint, the judgement against you was.

I chased you down as curator because you had what I assumed was the captains locker. Then, you pulled out what I assumed to be a stetch and curator whipped it out of your hands. I saw it was a russian revolver, and just assumed you were a shitter after that. Not an inaccurate assumption now that I think about it but beside the point. You then took the revolver back, and I put my whip away. We then engaged in a small fight in which you pushed me and beat me while I was down. Little did you know, because you chose to cherry pick the rules that helped you, escalation rules clearly state.


The HOP locker has the HOP logo on it. Not following that logic. Now if you're going to say that escalation rules clearly state you can beat people to death when they're trying to avoid you, because they punched you, I would invite any admins reading this to comment on the matter, because it just doesn't follow.

I attacked you because I assumed you had a stetch, and then stopped. You then punched and kicked me. That is violence. Despite me being the original instigator, I am now allowed to kill you. And you ignored the fact that you were also still trying to fight me during this. Can't act like defenseless lamb while ignoring what happened. And, via the rules page you didn't read, you can't ahelp or expect any administrative assistance because you decided to attack me back. Now, I'd recommend reading the next part of that.


You realize we all share this server and that we come here to have fun, right? In addition to being incredibly hostile that is just a flat out wrong statement of the rules. You can't attack someone, do nothing to de escalate, and then murder them because they punch you back. No where in the server rules does it come anywhere close to saying that and it's incredibly antagonistic behavior. You admit to starting the attack and the logs will show you made zero efforts to leave the area or apologize/deescalate using the say function. You additionally chased me down while I tried to run away, making efforts to deescalate the situation every step of the way.

In light of your reaction in this thread I think that MrAlphonzo's judgement and your behavior on the server are even more questionable. This only highlights the player's eagerness to escalate to lethal force with bad faith rationale.

User avatar
MrAlphonzo
 
Joined: Thu May 05, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: U S A, U S A, U S A
Byond Username: MrAlphonzo

Re: [MrAlphonzo] Frebbie - Allowing Nonantag Murder of Nonantags

Postby MrAlphonzo » Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:53 am #428549

Players involved in the event in question, whether a complaint or ban appeal, may post in the corresponding thread as per FNR rules.
Image
Image
Image

User avatar
Frebbie
 
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:55 pm
Byond Username: Frebbie

Re: [MrAlphonzo] Frebbie - Allowing Nonantag Murder of Nonantags

Postby Frebbie » Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:57 am #428551

MrAlphonzo wrote:They were already dragging your body to cloning before I even began speaking to them.

Additionally, the HoP's locker falls under their respective department as the HoP is the head of service branch, the library being a part of said branch. However, even if they were from a different department, the crew is allowed to intervene when someone is seemingly violating space law in an extreme manner. The security on the station, at the time, was incompetent to the point of nonexistance. Somebody has to fill in.


I think that this is a fair response. I was under the impression that he only moved me after the ahelp because of the time that lapsed and my inability to match the logs with the ahelp times.

I still find the behavior in bad faith and not in line with what's expected from players. In light of the player in question posting his rationale I believe it even more so. I disagree that this vigilantism was of any benefit to the station's security especially in this context. It made the server a needlessly more hostile place with a complete absence of any sort of say function communication or rationality behind random violence that was escalated to lethal force by one party on a fleeing victim.

User avatar
MrAlphonzo
 
Joined: Thu May 05, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: U S A, U S A, U S A
Byond Username: MrAlphonzo

Re: [MrAlphonzo] Frebbie - Allowing Nonantag Murder of Nonantags

Postby MrAlphonzo » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:03 am #428555

Frebbie wrote:
MrAlphonzo wrote:They were already dragging your body to cloning before I even began speaking to them.

Additionally, the HoP's locker falls under their respective department as the HoP is the head of service branch, the library being a part of said branch. However, even if they were from a different department, the crew is allowed to intervene when someone is seemingly violating space law in an extreme manner. The security on the station, at the time, was incompetent to the point of nonexistance. Somebody has to fill in.


I think that this is a fair response. I was under the impression that he only moved me after the ahelp because of the time that lapsed and my inability to match the logs with the ahelp times.

I still find the behavior in bad faith and not in line with what's expected from players. In light of the player in question posting his rationale I believe it even more so. I disagree that this vigilantism was of any benefit to the station's security especially in this context. It made the server a needlessly more hostile place with a complete absence of any sort of say function communication or rationality behind random violence that was escalated to lethal force by one party on a fleeing victim.


I doubt the curator would lie about thinking you had the captain's locker when he could've said he saw you with the HoP locker and been just as valid in chasing you.
From his perspective, a stolen captain's locker rarely leads to many good things. The same can be said for the head of personnel's locker, but to a much lesser degree.

If what MikeIke said is true about him putting away his whip and not fighting you anymore, only for you to shove him to the ground and punch him down, you may be at fault for failing to deescalate the situation.

Again, that's if what he said was true.
Image
Image
Image

User avatar
mikeike545
 
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:48 pm
Byond Username: Mikeike545

Re: [MrAlphonzo] Frebbie - Allowing Nonantag Murder of Nonantags

Postby mikeike545 » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:06 am #428556

You're just... again, cherrypicking here. I dunno if you want me to take you seriously, but I'd read entirely what I had said. I entirely understand getting mad at me for pointing out your lack of good faith when reciting the events of what happened, it'd make you look worse if you actually mentioned you beat me before I killed you.

As to the second part, I clearly stated it was because you lied through omission here. I also think it's weird you quoted the entire sentence without mentioning that last part there. It's... actually kind of peculiar.

I clearly said 'assumed'. Follow me here. I said 'assumed was'. Zoom, enhance. Follow the logic of someone seeing a blue and yellow locker being dragged away by some random and then chasing them down. I wonder. Also, it was far more than just 'one punch'. I'd actually like to look through the logs if I knew how or cared but uh, that's still violence m'dude. The escalation rules don't actually go through precisely what violence is but next time, don't steal and don't fight someone for trying to stop you is what I'd recommend.

That is... entirely not a wrong statement of the rules. Violence begets violence, and if you are to die, you can't cry to the admins. In what way is that difficult to understand? Like, I really don't know. I can't fathom a world in which 'If you choose to retaliate with violence, you in turn have opened yourself up to violence. If you choose this route, do not expect admins to help you out if you die, even if you were not the original instigator.' is hard to interpret. And it wasn't just one punch, even though I've seen that totally be used as justification. Don't act like you just hit me once and ran because that's just not what happened.

Yes, I do admit to starting the fight. Which, by the way, is also covered in the escalation section of the rules which I'd entirely recommend you actually give a full detailed read, but you fought back, leading me to believe you were actually doing something wrong and giving me the actual lawful right to fight you back, even to the death. I can't read your mind, like you said. I followed you into maint, you said little and came at me once more. I slipped you, and ended you. I then stripped you to check for illegal items, left to proclaim that the shitter was dead to the captain, then came back to revive your sorry corpse.

And I'd do it all over again, really. If you're willing to try to twist and bend the rules to your favor while ignoring and not even mentioning your own transgressions, I just kind of find it funny to watch at this point.

User avatar
mikeike545
 
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:48 pm
Byond Username: Mikeike545

Re: [MrAlphonzo] Frebbie - Allowing Nonantag Murder of Nonantags

Postby mikeike545 » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:12 am #428557

Like if you won't even mention that you actually had assaulted me during this entire altercation I dunno what to say. Is it because you didn't read that part of the rules? Or, is it because you read them and realize mentioning them would actually get you in trouble here?

Like I'm still baffled, the first post you put only has one mention of the locker you just blatantly stole and no mention of your retaliation against me.

And furthermore, why does my attitude matter if I'm still in the right according to the rules? You acted like a shitter and got put down, am I supposed to feel bad for it? I revived you and didn't bother you again. I didn't randomly assault anyone. And my only reason for attacking was me thinking you had an actual lethal weapon, instead of the russian revolver.

User avatar
Frebbie
 
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:55 pm
Byond Username: Frebbie

Re: [MrAlphonzo] Frebbie - Allowing Nonantag Murder of Nonantags

Postby Frebbie » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:31 am #428559

mikeike545 wrote:You're just... again, cherrypicking here. I dunno if you want me to take you seriously, but I'd read entirely what I had said. I entirely understand getting mad at me for pointing out your lack of good faith when reciting the events of what happened, it'd make you look worse if you actually mentioned you beat me before I killed you.

As to the second part, I clearly stated it was because you lied through omission here. I also think it's weird you quoted the entire sentence without mentioning that last part there. It's... actually kind of peculiar.

I clearly said 'assumed'. Follow me here. I said 'assumed was'. Zoom, enhance. Follow the logic of someone seeing a blue and yellow locker being dragged away by some random and then chasing them down. I wonder. Also, it was far more than just 'one punch'. I'd actually like to look through the logs if I knew how or cared but uh, that's still violence m'dude. The escalation rules don't actually go through precisely what violence is but next time, don't steal and don't fight someone for trying to stop you is what I'd recommend.

That is... entirely not a wrong statement of the rules. Violence begets violence, and if you are to die, you can't cry to the admins. In what way is that difficult to understand? Like, I really don't know. I can't fathom a world in which 'If you choose to retaliate with violence, you in turn have opened yourself up to violence. If you choose this route, do not expect admins to help you out if you die, even if you were not the original instigator.' is hard to interpret. And it wasn't just one punch, even though I've seen that totally be used as justification. Don't act like you just hit me once and ran because that's just not what happened.

Yes, I do admit to starting the fight. Which, by the way, is also covered in the escalation section of the rules which I'd entirely recommend you actually give a full detailed read, but you fought back, leading me to believe you were actually doing something wrong and giving me the actual lawful right to fight you back, even to the death. I can't read your mind, like you said. I followed you into maint, you said little and came at me once more. I slipped you, and ended you. I then stripped you to check for illegal items, left to proclaim that the shitter was dead to the captain, then came back to revive your sorry corpse.

And I'd do it all over again, really. If you're willing to try to twist and bend the rules to your favor while ignoring and not even mentioning your own transgressions, I just kind of find it funny to watch at this point.


This thread isn't even about you, it's about MrAlphonzo's judgement going forward.I posted in good faith. I posted what I saw and how I felt about it, that being it's a violation of the server rules. I'm not being hostile and antagonistic and I'd appreciate it if you'd show the same respect. We're all here for fun so what's with the hostility, especially when you aren't on trial here?

MrAlphonzo wrote:If what MikeIke said is true about him putting away his whip and not fighting you anymore, only for you to shove him to the ground and punch him down, you may be at fault for failing to deescalate the situation.


He contradicted that series of events with the above post, notably " can't read your mind, like you said. I followed you into maint, you said little and came at me once more. I slipped you, and ended you. I then stripped you to check for illegal items, left to proclaim that the shitter was dead to the captain, then came back to revive your sorry corpse. "

Apparently running in different directions from someone chasing you is "coming at me" and means lethal force is a go. The reason you aren't aware of it is because running away from someone like that isn't shown in the logs because it isn't an attack action and sure as shit isnt an escalation, which is why you didn't see it while investigating the incident in round. The whole attitude here is entirely not in the spirit of everyone here to have fun. MrAlphonzo can you post the ahelp chain with you and mikeike? This doesn't feel like a player was acting in good faith and given the benefit of the doubt at all.

User avatar
Frebbie
 
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:55 pm
Byond Username: Frebbie

Re: [MrAlphonzo] Frebbie - Allowing Nonantag Murder of Nonantags

Postby Frebbie » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:42 am #428562

mikeike545 wrote:Like if you won't even mention that you actually had assaulted me during this entire altercation I dunno what to say. Is it because you didn't read that part of the rules? Or, is it because you read them and realize mentioning them would actually get you in trouble here?

I did punch you after you instigated, Alphonzo knew this and it's in the logs.

Like I'm still baffled, the first post you put only has one mention of the locker you just blatantly stole and no mention of your retaliation against me.


The logs are public and would show if I broke into the HOPs office. I didn't. It is not in the logs. So stop with this "just blatantly stole". It isn't blatant. It wasn't blatant to you and it isn't blatant to anyone because we have public logs on this server.


why does my attitude matter if I'm still in the right according to the rules?


What does rule #1 say? Don't be a dick. If you're going to be a dick, especially here on the forums, just because you can be - you really don't give a shit about the rules, do you?

You acted like a shitter and got put down, am I supposed to feel bad for it?


Yes, I do admit to starting the fight


I clearly said 'assumed'. Follow me here. I said 'assumed was'. Zoom, enhance.


Like I'm still baffled


You then punched and kicked me. That is violence. Despite me being the original instigator, I am now allowed to kill you.


Yeah I really question MrAlphonzo's judgement in the case and would like to see better review of situations like this in the future. I have nothing else to add unless another member of the administration team wants to ask me anything.

User avatar
MrAlphonzo
 
Joined: Thu May 05, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: U S A, U S A, U S A
Byond Username: MrAlphonzo

Re: [MrAlphonzo] Frebbie - Allowing Nonantag Murder of Nonantags

Postby MrAlphonzo » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:45 am #428563

[2018-07-23 03:51:43.133] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: MrAlphonzo/(Jan Michael Vincent VIII)->Mikeike545/(Mateo Leech): Explain the corpse.
[2018-07-23 03:52:03.624] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Mikeike545/(Mateo Leech)->MrAlphonzo/(Jan Michael Vincent VIII): escalation rules. he fought me, opened him up to death
[2018-07-23 03:55:15.501] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: MrAlphonzo/(Jan Michael Vincent VIII)->Mikeike545/(Mateo Leech): Alright, just make sure you actually put them in the cloning scanner next time.

This may also be of interest.

[2018-07-23 03:49:40.817] SAY: Mateo Leech/Mikeike545 : jamie carmichael was stealing the caps locker (150,115,2)
[2018-07-23 03:50:45.566] SAY: Mateo Leech/Mikeike545 : cap to sec (111,160,2)
[2018-07-23 03:50:52.966] SAY: Mateo Leech/Mikeike545 : ive got your locker (110,158,2)
Image
Image
Image

User avatar
mikeike545
 
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:48 pm
Byond Username: Mikeike545

Re: [MrAlphonzo] Frebbie - Allowing Nonantag Murder of Nonantags

Postby mikeike545 » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:50 am #428564

I'll entirely apologize, then. I do find myself being far angrier than I should be. It's pretty late my time and I'm a little grumpy. I'm also miffed someone is literally just refusing to show evidence that proves them wrong. The reason I've mostly chosen to post here is because I was told that it'd probably be best to throw my own hat in and I see that little information is actually being presented. I've kind of said my piece anyway. And will only add on this before I head to bed and forget this thread really exists, unless I'm told otherwise:

You're still neglecting to mention your assault on me which I find still weird because that'll absolutely show up in the logs. Yes, I did follow you into maint because you were still leaving with the locker. That's theft. You don't have to personally break into a place to have stolen something from it. And no, you didn't hit me again because I wasn't going to let you. But, riddle me this batman, how was I able to slip you if you were running away from me in the crowded corridors of maint? Did I teleport in front of you to drop the soap? No, you came at me a second time, I dropped it, and then I beat you to death. In no way did I contradict myself here.

User avatar
Saegrimr
 
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:39 pm
Byond Username: Saegrimr

Re: [MrAlphonzo] Frebbie - Allowing Nonantag Murder of Nonantags

Postby Saegrimr » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:54 am #428565

MrAlphonzo wrote:If what MikeIke said is true about him putting away his whip and not fighting you anymore, only for you to shove him to the ground and punch him down, you may be at fault for failing to deescalate the situation.

Again, that's if what he said was true.

>If
Do admins not check attack logs anymore? It's even easier to get attack logs these days than ever before.

Here, I cut out the portion of the round's attack logs starting from the first interaction between ckeys mikeike545 and frebbie, and ended with the last interaction between the two ckeys (presumably the end of the fight)
Spoiler:
[2018-07-23 03:48:06.739] ATTACK: Mateo Leech(mikeike545) attacked Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) with curator's whip (INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 88.7) (152,136,2)
[2018-07-23 03:48:10.778] ATTACK: Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) disarmed Mateo Leech(mikeike545) with removing the �Russian revolver (NEWHP: 96.25) (151,137,2)
[2018-07-23 03:48:17.169] ATTACK: Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) attempted to disarm Mateo Leech(mikeike545) (NEWHP: 96.25) (154,138,2)
[2018-07-23 03:48:18.000] ATTACK: Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) attempted to disarm Mateo Leech(mikeike545) (NEWHP: 96.25) (154,138,2)
[2018-07-23 03:48:23.617] ATTACK: Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) disarmed Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) (NEWHP: 88.7) (151,139,2)
[2018-07-23 03:48:25.409] ATTACK: Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) pushed over Mateo Leech(mikeike545) (NEWHP: 96.25) (154,138,2)
[2018-07-23 03:48:28.208] ATTACK: Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) punched Mateo Leech(mikeike545) (NEWHP: 95.25) (154,138,2)
[2018-07-23 03:48:28.998] ATTACK: Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) punched Mateo Leech(mikeike545) (NEWHP: 89.25) (154,138,2)
[2018-07-23 03:48:29.817] ATTACK: Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) punched Mateo Leech(mikeike545) (NEWHP: 87) (154,138,2)
[2018-07-23 03:48:41.977] ATTACK: Mateo Leech(mikeike545) attempted to disarm Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) (NEWHP: 88.7) (153,139,2)
[2018-07-23 03:48:42.999] ATTACK: Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) punched Mateo Leech(mikeike545) (NEWHP: 85.5) (153,132,2)
[2018-07-23 03:48:43.091] ATTACK: Mateo Leech(mikeike545) disarmed Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) (NEWHP: 88.7) (153,132,2)
[2018-07-23 03:48:43.980] ATTACK: Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) punched Athrypsiastis Laevusta(zerothebigboy) (NEWHP: 92) (153,124,2)
[2018-07-23 03:48:48.595] ATTACK: Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) punched Mateo Leech(mikeike545) (NEWHP: 78.5) (152,138,2)
[2018-07-23 03:49:15.378] ATTACK: Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) slipped on the soap (150,122,2)
[2018-07-23 03:49:18.829] ATTACK: Mateo Leech(mikeike545) attacked Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) with curator's whip (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 77.45) (150,122,2)
[2018-07-23 03:49:19.722] ATTACK: Mateo Leech(mikeike545) attacked Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) with curator's whip (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 66.15) (150,122,2)
[2018-07-23 03:49:20.430] ATTACK: Mateo Leech(mikeike545) attacked Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) with curator's whip (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 54.85) (150,122,2)
[2018-07-23 03:49:21.497] ATTACK: Mateo Leech(mikeike545) attacked Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) with curator's whip (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 43.55) (150,122,2)
[2018-07-23 03:49:22.290] ATTACK: Mateo Leech(mikeike545) attacked Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) with curator's whip (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 32.25) (150,122,2)
[2018-07-23 03:49:23.224] ATTACK: Mateo Leech(mikeike545) attacked Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) with curator's whip (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 20.95) (150,122,2)
[2018-07-23 03:49:23.744] ATTACK: Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) punched Mateo Leech(mikeike545) (NEWHP: 75.5) (150,123,2)
[2018-07-23 03:49:24.122] ATTACK: Mateo Leech(mikeike545) attacked Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) with curator's whip (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 9.64999) (150,122,2)
[2018-07-23 03:49:25.775] ATTACK: Mateo Leech(mikeike545) attacked Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) with curator's whip (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -1.65001) (150,121,2)
[2018-07-23 03:49:28.485] ATTACK: Mateo Leech(mikeike545) attacked Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) with curator's whip (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -12.95) (150,121,2)
[2018-07-23 03:49:29.623] ATTACK: Mateo Leech(mikeike545) attacked Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) with curator's whip (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -24.25) (150,120,2)
[2018-07-23 03:49:30.570] ATTACK: Mateo Leech(mikeike545) attacked Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) with curator's whip (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -35.55) (150,120,2)
[2018-07-23 03:49:31.366] ATTACK: Mateo Leech(mikeike545) attacked Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) with curator's whip (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -47.5167) (150,120,2)
[2018-07-23 03:49:33.008] ATTACK: Mateo Leech(mikeike545) grabbed Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) with passive grab (NEWHP: -48.1834) (150,120,2)
[2018-07-23 03:49:47.797] ATTACK: Mateo Leech(mikeike545) stripped the leather satchel off Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) (NEWHP: -52.85) (150,116,2)
[2018-07-23 03:49:49.796] ATTACK: Mateo Leech(mikeike545) stripped the toolbelt off Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) (NEWHP: -53.5167) (150,116,2)
[2018-07-23 03:49:53.500] ATTACK: Mateo Leech(mikeike545) stripped PDA-Jamie Carmichael (Assistant) off Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) (NEWHP: -54.85) (150,116,2)
Last edited by Saegrimr on Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
MrAlphonzo
 
Joined: Thu May 05, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: U S A, U S A, U S A
Byond Username: MrAlphonzo

Re: [MrAlphonzo] Frebbie - Allowing Nonantag Murder of Nonantags

Postby MrAlphonzo » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:56 am #428566

I just got done digging up the logs myself.

We don't typically go through the logs for each and every ticket. You gave the impression that you stole something from their department, which made you valid, and I did not see the need to investigate further.

Regardless, MikeIke's story holds true in the logs.

He put away his whip and did not retaliate against your disarm attempts, for 20 seconds, up until you finally knocked them down and began beating them.
Image
Image
Image

User avatar
Frebbie
 
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:55 pm
Byond Username: Frebbie

Re: [MrAlphonzo] Frebbie - Allowing Nonantag Murder of Nonantags

Postby Frebbie » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:05 am #428567

mikeike545 wrote:I'll entirely apologize, then. I do find myself being far angrier than I should be. It's pretty late my time and I'm a little grumpy. I'm also miffed someone is literally just refusing to show evidence that proves them wrong. The reason I've mostly chosen to post here is because I was told that it'd probably be best to throw my own hat in and I see that little information is actually being presented. I've kind of said my piece anyway. And will only add on this before I head to bed and forget this thread really exists, unless I'm told otherwise:

You're still neglecting to mention your assault on me which I find still weird because that'll absolutely show up in the logs. Yes, I did follow you into maint because you were still leaving with the locker. That's theft. You don't have to personally break into a place to have stolen something from it. And no, you didn't hit me again because I wasn't going to let you. But, riddle me this batman, how was I able to slip you if you were running away from me in the crowded corridors of maint? Did I teleport in front of you to drop the soap? No, you came at me a second time, I dropped it, and then I beat you to death. In no way did I contradict myself here.


Come on dude I accept your apology but what's up with this neglecting assault on you? I stated that I disagreed that it was an appropriate escalation in my second post in this thread, and later referenced to punching you. This disagreement is about MrAlphonzo's interpretation of the events that happened and the administration's thoughts, not about attacking you or what you did. You aren't on the line for anything here.

We had a disagreement both in game and about the ruling, there's no winner, it's for the administration team to make their mind up about whether the complaint is justified and nonantagonist killing should be dealt with differently in the future.

To answer your question in good faith this took place in the two tile wide maint area next to atmos, where I doubled back towards the hallway and was slipped and died right next to the clown office. I seriously just wanted to get away from you.

User avatar
Frebbie
 
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:55 pm
Byond Username: Frebbie

Re: [MrAlphonzo] Frebbie - Allowing Nonantag Murder of Nonantags

Postby Frebbie » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:11 am #428568

MrAlphonzo wrote:Regardless, MikeIke's story holds true in the logs.

He put away his whip and did not retaliate against your disarm attempts, for 20 seconds, up until you finally knocked them down and began beating them.


That is not what I believe to be the issue. The issue is following me into maint later and murdering me while I tried to run away from him more than twenty seconds after punching him.

My issue is with your interpretation of escalation, which, given that I was disarmed first, I saw no deescalation from putting the whip away, especially given the fact that the logs show I was never attacked with the whip to begin with. I had disarm attacked up until pushing him and punching him a few times. I don't see why your interpretation hinges on the whip ex post facto when it was only used after I got slipped to beat me to death.

The idea that you find punching someone after they disarm attack you valid escalation to go to lethal force really bothers me and that's something I would like to see worked out in this thread.

User avatar
MrAlphonzo
 
Joined: Thu May 05, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: U S A, U S A, U S A
Byond Username: MrAlphonzo

Re: [MrAlphonzo] Frebbie - Allowing Nonantag Murder of Nonantags

Postby MrAlphonzo » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:20 am #428569

Frebbie wrote:
MrAlphonzo wrote:Regardless, MikeIke's story holds true in the logs.

He put away his whip and did not retaliate against your disarm attempts, for 20 seconds, up until you finally knocked them down and began beating them.


My issue is with your interpretation of escalation, which, given that I was disarmed first, I saw no deescalation from putting the whip away, especially given the fact that the logs show I was never attacked with the whip to begin with. I had disarm attacked up until pushing him and punching him a few times. I don't see why your interpretation hinges on the whip ex post facto when it was only used after I got slipped to beat me to death.


[2018-07-23 03:48:06.739] ATTACK: Mateo Leech(mikeike545) attacked Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) with curator's whip (INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 88.7) (152,136,2)

This is the one, single, only time they attacked you before you spent 20 seconds trying to knock them to the ground, without them retaliating, and began beating them.

Read carefully now.

"with curator's whip"

If you try to pin someone to ground and beat them lethally, I'd say you're fair game.
Image
Image
Image

User avatar
Arianya
In-Game Game Master
 
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 10:27 am
Byond Username: Arianya

Re: [MrAlphonzo] Frebbie - Allowing Nonantag Murder of Nonantags

Postby Arianya » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:38 am #428571

This is a lot of posts contesting a really simple IC situation that is covered almost word for word in our escalation policy:

If a player wrongs you(theft, attacks, etc), you may retaliate. If you choose to retaliate with violence, you in turn have opened yourself up to violence. If you choose this route, do not expect admins to help you out if you die, even if you were not the original instigator. If you are concerned about being "kill baited" then consider calling security, using non lethal means to subdue your opponent, fleeing, or otherwise working things out (talking them down, getting your stolen items replaced, etc)


This case is more clear cut then normal since the "instigator" in this case seems to have made a pretty clear attempt to de-escalate the situation even though you pulled a (joke) gun on them. You retaliated with violence, until the person was stunned (pushed down) and being punched repeatedly. From that point you had opened yourself to retaliation of the lethal kind.

Additionally, you seem to have some preconceptions about the rules/RP of the server which simply do not exist, for example:

Taking players out of rounds or irreversibly hindering them as a non-antagonist is a decision that is only available to the captain or acting-captain head of staff with at least some reasoning.

the nonantag, non-sec role player taking security into their own hands using lethal methods


As far as Alphonzo being more strict about non-antagonist murder, his interpretation is pretty in line with policy and the rules, especially in light of the "instigator" making an effort to revive you into the round before being bwoinked/asked to. I will note that they were a bit curt in closing the ticket with such a simplistic response, but this isn't really the end of the world.

Regardless, there isn't much more to be said or done until a headmin responds.
Frequently playing as Aria Bollet on Bagil & Scary Terry

Source of avatar is here: https://i.imgur.com/hEkADo6.jpg

User avatar
Frebbie
 
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:55 pm
Byond Username: Frebbie

Re: [MrAlphonzo] Frebbie - Allowing Nonantag Murder of Nonantags

Postby Frebbie » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:46 am #428601

[2018-07-23 03:48:06.739] ATTACK: Mateo Leech(mikeike545) attacked Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) with curator's whip (INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 88.7) (152,136,2)
[2018-07-23 03:48:10.778] ATTACK: Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) disarmed Mateo Leech(mikeike545) with removing the �Russian revolver (NEWHP: 96.25) (151,137,2)
[2018-07-23 03:48:17.169] ATTACK: Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) attempted to disarm Mateo Leech(mikeike545) (NEWHP: 96.25) (154,138,2)
[2018-07-23 03:48:18.000] ATTACK: Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) attempted to disarm Mateo Leech(mikeike545) (NEWHP: 96.25) (154,138,2)
[2018-07-23 03:48:23.617] ATTACK: Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) disarmed Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) (NEWHP: 88.7) (151,139,2)[color=#0000BF]
[2018-07-23 03:48:25.409] ATTACK: Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) pushed over Mateo Leech(mikeike545) (NEWHP: 96.25) (154,138,2)

[2018-07-23 03:48:28.208] ATTACK: Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) punched Mateo Leech(mikeike545) (NEWHP: 95.25) (154,138,2)
[2018-07-23 03:48:28.998] ATTACK: Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) punched Mateo Leech(mikeike545) (NEWHP: 89.25) (154,138,2)
[2018-07-23 03:48:29.817] ATTACK: Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) punched Mateo Leech(mikeike545) (NEWHP: 87) (154,138,2)

Mateo reinstigates as I leave
[2018-07-23 03:48:41.977] ATTACK: Mateo Leech(mikeike545) attempted to disarm Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) (NEWHP: 88.7) (153,139,2)
[2018-07-23 03:48:42.999] ATTACK: Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) punched Mateo Leech(mikeike545) (NEWHP: 85.5) (153,132,2)

[2018-07-23 03:48:43.091] ATTACK: Mateo Leech(mikeike545) disarmed Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) (NEWHP: 88.7) (153,132,2)
[2018-07-23 03:48:43.980] ATTACK: Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) punched Athrypsiastis Laevusta(zerothebigboy) (NEWHP: 92) (153,124,2)
[2018-07-23 03:48:48.595] ATTACK: Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) punched Mateo Leech(mikeike545) (NEWHP: 78.5) (152,138,2)
in maint
[2018-07-23 03:49:15.378] ATTACK: Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) slipped on the soap (150,122,2)
[2018-07-23 03:49:18.829] ATTACK: Mateo Leech(mikeike545) attacked Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) with curator's whip (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 77.45) (150,122,2)
[2018-07-23 03:49:19.722] ATTACK: Mateo Leech(mikeike545) attacked Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) with curator's whip (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 66.15) (150,122,2)
[2018-07-23 03:49:20.430] ATTACK: Mateo Leech(mikeike545) attacked Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) with curator's whip (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 54.85) (150,122,2)
[2018-07-23 03:49:21.497] ATTACK: Mateo Leech(mikeike545) attacked Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) with curator's whip (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 43.55) (150,122,2)
[2018-07-23 03:49:22.290] ATTACK: Mateo Leech(mikeike545) attacked Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) with curator's whip (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 32.25) (150,122,2)
[2018-07-23 03:49:23.224] ATTACK: Mateo Leech(mikeike545) attacked Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) with curator's whip (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 20.95) (150,122,2)
[2018-07-23 03:49:23.744] ATTACK: Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) punched Mateo Leech(mikeike545) (NEWHP: 75.5) (150,123,2)
[2018-07-23 03:49:24.122] ATTACK: Mateo Leech(mikeike545) attacked Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) with curator's whip (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 9.64999) (150,122,2)
[2018-07-23 03:49:25.775] ATTACK: Mateo Leech(mikeike545) attacked Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) with curator's whip (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -1.65001) (150,121,2)
[2018-07-23 03:49:28.485] ATTACK: Mateo Leech(mikeike545) attacked Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) with curator's whip (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -12.95) (150,121,2)
[2018-07-23 03:49:29.623] ATTACK: Mateo Leech(mikeike545) attacked Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) with curator's whip (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -24.25) (150,120,2)
[2018-07-23 03:49:30.570] ATTACK: Mateo Leech(mikeike545) attacked Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) with curator's whip (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -35.55) (150,120,2)
[2018-07-23 03:49:31.366] ATTACK: Mateo Leech(mikeike545) attacked Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) with curator's whip (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -47.5167) (150,120,2)
[2018-07-23 03:49:33.008] ATTACK: Mateo Leech(mikeike545) grabbed Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) with passive grab (NEWHP: -48.1834) (150,120,2)
[2018-07-23 03:49:47.797] ATTACK: Mateo Leech(mikeike545) stripped the leather satchel off Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) (NEWHP: -52.85) (150,116,2)
[2018-07-23 03:49:49.796] ATTACK: Mateo Leech(mikeike545) stripped the toolbelt off Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) (NEWHP: -53.5167) (150,116,2)
[2018-07-23 03:49:53.500] ATTACK: Mateo Leech(mikeike545) stripped PDA-Jamie Carmichael (Assistant) off Jamie Carmichael(frebbie) (NEWHP: -54.85) (150,116,2)

MrAlphonzo wrote:This is the one, single, only time they attacked you before you spent 20 seconds trying to knock them to the ground, without them retaliating, and began beating them.

Yeah the logs don't show this 20 second deescalation period you're talking about. I shoving after four seconds when it turned into a run around each other melee and then the three punches I threw after shoving him down happened. Maybe if he said something there would be some deescalation but it was just running around each other and that's a tough story to sell for your narrative as a deescalation. The above combat logs show Mateo go back to fuck with me twice more ten seconds after I punched him and left the area. I don't know if your interpretation is willfully ignorant or what, but those are the attack logs and timestamps and they don't add up to your telling of events or escalation.

Arianya wrote:This case is more clear cut then normal since the "instigator" in this case seems to have made a pretty clear attempt to de-escalate the situation even though you pulled a (joke) gun on them. You retaliated with violence, until the person was stunned (pushed down) and being punched repeatedly. From that point you had opened yourself to retaliation of the lethal kind.

Can you please highlight that deescalation attempt in the above combat logs? It isn't there. The time stamps don't line up for Alphonzo's telling of events and if punching someone three times after being attacked and then leaving the area means you're valid salid I'd like to know.

I threw six punches. Three after being attacked, two after being attacked a second time, and one after my head started to be split open. Look at those fucking logs and tell me with a straight face there was nothing funny going on, that it wasn't one sided.

User avatar
Arianya
In-Game Game Master
 
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 10:27 am
Byond Username: Arianya

Re: [MrAlphonzo] Frebbie - Allowing Nonantag Murder of Nonantags

Postby Arianya » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:23 am #428603

The number of punches doesn't really matter, there's a reason our escalation rules state "violence" and not "murder" or "aggravated assault" or whatever.

Mentioning de-escalation was really a mistake on my part, since its not something actually in the rules anymore since Escalation was changed. It's sometimes considered in edge cases but it was really neither here nor there in this case.

It's as simple as:

- Mateo started a fight (allegedly because he believed you were stealing the captain's locker and whipped out a stetch, which I find reasonable)
- You then reacted to the fight by pushing him down and punching him repeatedly, while Mateo made no attempts to carry on the fight (as far as the attack logs show, there were no attempted attacks or disarms)
- Speculation but I'm guessing he was trying to take the locker from you rather then fight you at this stage.
- Mateo follows you as you now attempt to flee, sees you get slipped by a soap, decides to finish the fight
- You get critted, Mateo strips you of your ID and a couple of essentials, then drags you to medbay (and as Alphonzo noted, didn't put you in the cloner itself which got him thrown around and told to do it properly)
- You ahelp the situation, arguably leaving out important information like the fact that you retaliated to his instigation, and Alphonzo (correctly) marks it an IC issue with a somewhat curt response after discussing with Mateo.

Quite frankly there is nothing out of the ordinary here barring maybe the stripping of ID/backpack and really that's not actionable in and of itself. I certainly can't see anything actionable against the admin.

You're of course welcome to disagree with the Policy of Escalation, in which case you'll want to make a Policy Discussion thread, but honestly your argument that Alphonzo was in the wrong for enforcing policy as written isn't really tenable.
Frequently playing as Aria Bollet on Bagil & Scary Terry

Source of avatar is here: https://i.imgur.com/hEkADo6.jpg

User avatar
Frebbie
 
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:55 pm
Byond Username: Frebbie

Re: [MrAlphonzo] Frebbie - Allowing Nonantag Murder of Nonantags

Postby Frebbie » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:43 pm #428706

Arianya wrote:The number of punches doesn't really matter, there's a reason our escalation rules state "violence" and not "murder" or "aggravated assault" or whatever.

And yet I have a feeling that if a player murders whoever punches them no matter how many punches were thrown, they would be banned, because it violates the rule of don't be a dick.

So what the fuck is going on? The number of punches and trying to flee doesn't matter? If this is the administration's consensus then I'll take it and help spread the word across the server, I'm sure there are plenty of assistants dying to murder anyone that punches them once.

User avatar
Rustledjimm
 
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:07 pm
Byond Username: Rustledjimm

Re: [MrAlphonzo] Frebbie - Allowing Nonantag Murder of Nonantags

Postby Rustledjimm » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:54 pm #428721

Admins are not required to ban people because you think they've broken the rules. There are many other ways to resolve a situation before it comes to banning on this server. Maybe some other servers whip the banhammer out quickly but we do not. Mistakes are made during a game, sometimes shit happens, it's a game. As you said yourself Alphonzo's conduct during the entire durationw as fine.

I'm going to say that this really does sound like a very thinly veiled ban request. I can understand you are upset about an admins ruling however admin rulings are final as per rule 6. If Alphonzo's conduct was in question then we would have a valid complaint here but I cannot see anything here that contitutes a proper admin complaint I'm sorry. Another headmin is free to disagree with me.
So uhh, I'm an admin. Please leave feedback!

Will Baker
Suzu Suzaku
TBC
Spoiler:
Image

Personal Ban Length Record: 2.1024e+006 minutes


Return to Closed Complaints

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: confused rock