The Catgirl Vote - Summoning Oranges

[afelinidisfinetoo]

The vote to remove catgirls has concluded, you can see the results here: https://tgstation13.org/tgdb/irvpolltally.php?id=204
The results haven't been filtered yet. So far, replacing catgirls with etherals has won by about 20 votes.
Regardless of the ultimate results, here are some questions for the poll staff, oranges.

Why does the poll that you made hold that it's necessary to remove felinids in order to add etherals?
Is there some reason why a race needs to be removed in order for etherals to be added? If this is a congestion issue, why is it that felinids (the most popular nonhuman race) would be removed to make room when you could instead remove, for instance, flypeople?
Was the inclusion of the "Remove felinids and add <x> enticing new race" poll options an attempt to persuade the voters to vote to remove felinids? If not, what was your specific motivation in making these poll options?
How are etherals or IPCs relevant to this poll's stated premise, which was to gauge whether or not felinids belong in the game? Do you believe that motivating the voters with the promise of other races in any way taints the poll?

I'm looking forward to these answers. Thanks.

[PKPenguin321]

There was a lot of discussion in adminbus before this poll was ran, didn't really pay much attention to it (mostly skimmed it) but the extra options were included to provide compromises, specifics, details, and options rather than a binary YES/NO poll. Because it is an IRV poll, there is no real "adding poll options in an attempt to persuade the voters to vote [some other way]." IRV polls don't really work that way, since no matter what your order is you will still end up voting for most of the options in a sense. If you wanted to remove catgirls and placed "replace with X" at the top instead of "remove outright," you're still voting for "remove outright," it's just not your first pick. You can (and in fact HAVE TO) vote for multiple options is kind of what I'm getting at, so there's not even a concept of "add another option to get people to vote a different way."

[PKPenguin321]

Oh, and further, if you're curious why the compromises needed to be listed:

In a binary YES/NO poll to remove catgirls, if you wanted to restrict catgirls to admin only, which would you vote for? If you vote yes, catgirls get removed from the code completely and you don't even get a say. If you vote no, catgirls remain unchanged and you don't get a say in that case, either. The same goes for pretty much every compromise (for example, the compromise to remove catgirls but keep cat ears/tails as a hat item in the game was an IRV poll option that I know at least a few people supported) regardless of what "side" they lean towards, and because it's an IRV poll you can vote for a compromise without compromising your "main" vote of picking yes or no since you can (and must) order every option on the poll.

[afelinidisfinetoo]

the extra options were included to provide compromises, specifics, details, and options rather than a binary YES/NO poll.

Okay. Makes sense.

Because it is an IRV poll, there is no real "adding poll options in an attempt to persuade the voters to vote [some other way]." IRV polls don't really work that way, since no matter what your order is you will still end up voting for most of the options in a sense.

This is simply wrong. Of course you can taint an IRV poll, it isn't magical. If I make an IRV poll that has the option, "Remove felinids and I give you $100,000,000" people will obviously vote for that option because they want the $100,000,000, not because they want felinids gone. Oranges made a poll that says "Remove felinids and I add a new never before seen race." That option won because people want the new race. It completely taints the poll. It makes the poll about "Do you want etherals?" and not "Do you want felinids to stay?"

[oranges]

someone is mad they lost

[afelinidisfinetoo]

someone is mad they lost

Why have you consistently avoided the questions put forth by this thread? Whenever someone talks to you about the poll you are happy to answer other questions. When the topic of the "Remove catgirls and add this new race" bribery comes up, you instantly go quiet or try to sabotage the conversation (like you're doing now.)

Does it just not matter to you? Are you banking on a hope that the busy host will ignore what you've done with the poll and allow you to force your personal will because he doesn't want to bother with it any more?

[somerandomguy]

This does smell like salt but that is a good question - why did we need to have a "swap for ethereal" option when there was no issue with ethereals (and it seemed like it would get merged anyway)? "Swap for IPCs" was probably fine though, since IPCs did have some issues (although an additional "keep catpeople, add IPCs" would be best)

[oranges]

yeah that sounds about right

[afelinidisfinetoo]

Can we stop allowing people responsible for the game to answer like this? I don't think someone who decides for everyone else how the game will work should be making a joke out of every attempt to communicate with him, hold him accountable for wrongful actions, etc.

Oranges, you made a poll that has some serious problems. You are now being politely confronted about those problems, and you should be answering seriously if you're acting with good will.

[oranges]

It's my game, not yours

[afelinidisfinetoo]

I am not going to allow you to drag the the level of discussion in the thread down so that it gets locked and you don't have to answer anything. Just stop posting if you're going to keep avoiding the issue.

[somerandomguy]

Can we stop allowing people responsible for the game to answer like this? I don't think someone who decides for everyone else how the game will work should be making a joke out of every attempt to communicate with him, hold him accountable for wrongful actions, etc.

Oranges, you made a poll that has some serious problems. You are now being politely confronted about those problems, and you should be answering seriously if you're acting with good will.

Talk to the headmins, expecting a serious reply out of oranges when he doesn't want to be serious is like expecting it to snow when it's the middle of summer.

Non-edit:

Oranges, I am not going to allow you to drag the the level of discussion in the thread down so that it gets locked and you don't have to answer anything. Just stop posting if you're going to keep avoiding the issue.

See above

[Shadowflame909]

Can we stop allowing people responsible for the game to answer like this? I don't think someone who decides for everyone else how the game will work should be making a joke out of every attempt to communicate with him, hold him accountable for wrongful actions, etc.

Oranges, you made a poll that has some serious problems. You are now being politely confronted about those problems, and you should be answering seriously if you're acting with good will.

they do it for free

u play it 4 free

I dont know what anyone here expected when they hear free. But I wouldn't expect anything

Edit: As an analogy imagine if I got free bagged milk. Why would I get free bagged milk. Unless it was expired!

Well that'd still be a pretty alright deal. Expired milk can make something, I think. So all in all. You get expired bag milk.

You can turn the milk into gold, or you can't and you vomit. You still get the expired free milk though

[afelinidisfinetoo]

...

This behavior shouldn't be accepted. It is super obvious that he's doing this because he doesn't want to answer (because there isn't a good answer.) He isn't just feeling goofy.

[oranges]

I am not going to allow you to drag the the level of discussion in the thread down so that it gets locked and you don't have to answer anything. Just stop posting if you're going to keep avoiding the issue.

until you stop hiding behind your SPA account why would anyone take you seriously?

[afelinidisfinetoo]

I am not going to allow you to drag the the level of discussion in the thread down so that it gets locked and you don't have to answer anything. Just stop posting if you're going to keep avoiding the issue.

until you stop hiding behind your SPA account why would anyone take you seriously?

This isn't an alt account. Like I said, I'm a returning player lured back by the existence of catgirls in SS13.
I'm pretty sure my last BYOND account was named something like "grieferkiller24" or similar.

This thread is not about me, it's about you. Could you answer the questions in the OP, please?

[Shezza]

I am not going to allow you to drag the the level of discussion in the thread down so that it gets locked and you don't have to answer anything. Just stop posting if you're going to keep avoiding the issue.

until you stop hiding behind your SPA account why would anyone take you seriously?

Wasn't it confirmed by multiple admins that they're not an alt?

[Shadowflame909]

No way cat girls are going away anyways. That's just nigh unlikely. They may be a meme race, but they're the most popular meme race that's most prevalent in coders and admins.

Is such a thing even possible felind?

I wouldn't sweat it. Once you do sweat it and then it turns out "woops jk" The only one who loses is you. Not the epic prankster

[somerandomguy]

...

This behavior shouldn't be accepted. It is super obvious that he's doing this because he doesn't want to answer (because there isn't a good answer.) He isn't just feeling goofy.

This is oranges, he's almost always like this
Also, it's oranges

Edit:
>23 replies in ~30 minutes
>involves catpeople
>salt
>accusations of corruption
>oranges evading questions
I smell a new drama thread brewing

[afelinidisfinetoo]

Catpeople wise, we just need to wait for the filtering to be finished.

Whether or not catgirls win the vote is irrelevant to this thread. Even if they win the vote, oranges still made a poll that is slanted against them. Why did he do that, and will more of this kind of thing happen?

[afelinidisfinetoo]

This thread is not about move speed, it's about the legitimacy of the catgirl poll. Please stay on topic.

[Shadowflame909]

After raging over github about nerfs and balances. I've realized a crucial fact. No matter what gets removed or nerfed to the point of uselessness. Or whatever weird item you personally disagree with gets added. The game as a whole statically, doesn't really change.

It aint worth writing an essay about my friend. I'm telling you this, as a person who has done what you are doing felind. In two years, this entire argument will seem a bit silly.

I also don't think cat girls will be gone. I hope they get some racial changes to make them different from humans with cat ears and tails though.

[afelinidisfinetoo]

I have no reason to believe the Catperson poll is illegitimate considering the efficacy of the MSO and other support systems behind the poll.

MSO does not have the magical ability to discern between people who voted for the etherals option because they wanted etherals (bad) or because they wanted felinids gone (good). MSO being involved in the filtering process is irrelevant. The poll is irreversibly tainted by the inclusion of the "Remove felinids and add <x> enticing new race" options (without a "Keep felinids and add <x> enticing new race" option)

[somerandomguy]

I have no reason to believe the Catperson poll is illegitimate considering the efficacy of the MSO and other support systems behind the poll.

MSO does not have the magical ability to discern between people who voted for the etherals option because they wanted etherals (bad) or because they wanted felinids gone (good). MSO being involved in the filtering process is irrelevant. The poll is irreversibly tainted by the inclusion of the "Remove felinids and add <x> enticing new race" options.

What if they wanted ethereals but didn't give a shit about cats

[afelinidisfinetoo]

What if they wanted ethereals but didn't give a shit about cats

Yes, this is a great example of how the poll is tainted. Voters who are totally ambivalent about felinids are enticed to vote for their removal, if they separately want etherals added. These posters would have abstained from the poll or voted neutrally if it was not for the options that this thread talks about. Oranges, the thread is asking you whether the poll was tainted by negligence or by your personal desire for the result. The longer you go on avoiding these questions the further people will gravitate towards thinking you rigged it on purpose.

[Shadowflame909]

Maybe we should've had a "remove catpeople and lower movespeed" option

new poll coming soon

Aw. cmon. I haven't really been keeping up with the thread in all honesty other then skimming but don't lower movespeed!

It won't effect the game as a whole. But if we get paradise tier movespeed. Then paradise becomes a slightly better server.

They still got the slings! Movespeed might be one of the only things we got over them.

Also a whole lot of genetic powers

And to relate to cat-girls and voting and what not. I bet one of my unused plushie voucher meme notes that cat-girls will stay in some form. You might not be able to wear my armor hats for them. But they'll still be here.

Lastly, if we're also talking about etherals. Can someone tell me how they react to tasers. Like if I stun-baton/taser them enough will that make them fat and lower there movespeed? But otherwise they're immune to stuns? Imagine that. Tasers make you fat and incredibly slow, but you're otherwise immune to getting knocked to the ground by stuns

[afelinidisfinetoo]

Could a forum mod please delete every post that mentions move speed? Oranges is attempting to drown out the issue, this is not relevant to the thread. Thanks.

[Shadowflame909]

Could a forum mod please delete every post that mentions move speed? Oranges is attempting to drown out the issue, this is not relevant to the thread. Thanks.

Yeah man. I'm just a bored lonely dude looking for some form of my genetically required social interaction lest I go insane.

I harbor no hate to any admin that banishes all my comments to the shadowrealm. They're just making the place better by cleaning out the peanuts.

Also, I think the reason this conversation doesn't appear to be going anywhere and is more or less a mudslinging fight is because there's a hint of salt in the posts.

Let's try empathizing with ideas and accepting and taking constructive criticism. Eh?

[somerandomguy]

What if they wanted ethereals but didn't give a shit about cats

Yes, this is a great example of how the poll is tainted. Voters who are totally ambivalent about felinids are enticed to vote for their removal, if they separately want etherals added. These posters would have abstained from the poll or voted neutrally if it was not for the options that this thread talks about. Oranges, the thread is asking you whether the poll was tainted by negligence or by your personal desire for the result. The longer you go on avoiding these questions the further people will gravitate towards thinking you rigged it on purpose.

No, it's just asking why
Asking if it was one of two outcomes that both favor you is really really stupid, the only answer you'll get is "no"
Also for the last time, it's oranges

Could a forum mod please delete every post that mentions move speed? Oranges is attempting to drown out the issue, this is not relevant to the thread. Thanks.

Just lock the thread, it's too salty and getting off-topic :^)
Also >implying other people's accounts are oranges' alts

[afelinidisfinetoo]

Make a decision from this poll instead of making us go through another two weeks of voting because some people disagree with the wording.

This is not an issue with the wording of the poll. The problem is that the poll is slanted toward removing felinids because it motivates the voter with the promise of adding a brand new race if felinids are removed. If we are going to decide the issue based on this tainted poll, it should be a default win for felinids remaining because the poll is slanted against them, and because all of the previous (three?) polls, which were not tainted in this way, showed a win for keeping felinids.

[Shadowflame909]

Make a decision from this poll instead of making us go through another two weeks of voting because some people disagree with the wording.

This is not an issue with the wording of the poll. The problem is that the poll is slanted toward removing felinids because it motivates the voter with the promise of adding a brand new race if felinids are removed. If we are going to decide the issue based on this tainted poll, it should be a default win for felinids remaining because the poll is slanted against them, and because all of the previous (three?) polls, which were not tainted in this way, showed a win for keeping felinids.

How would you suggest a equally biased in both directions poll then? Got any ideas for felind biased poll options that you think would even out the score?

[somerandomguy]

Actually just unironically put the thread in the hut or salt reserves, where it deserves to go

Make a decision from this poll instead of making us go through another two weeks of voting because some people disagree with the wording.

This is not an issue with the wording of the poll. The problem is that the poll is slanted toward removing felinids because it motivates the voter with the promise of adding a brand new race if felinids are removed. If we are going to decide the issue based on this tainted poll, it should be a default win for felinids remaining because the poll is slanted against them, and because all of the previous (three?) polls, which were not tainted in this way, showed a win for keeping felinids.

>>>>>>>>default win for cats
I'm not even going to legitimize this with a rebuttal

[afelinidisfinetoo]

Got any ideas for felind biased poll options that you think would even out the score?

The only poll that can be completely free of external variables is a poll that says "Should felinids remain in the game?" and has the options "Yes" and "No". Apparently there were already three of these polls, and they all resulted in "Yes" after filtering.
If you're asking what would have been the easiest way to make this poll less biased, it would be to include "Keep felinids and add etherals" and "Keep felinids and add IPCs" options, like someone said near the beginning of the thread.

Forum mods, please purge the thread of off-topic posts and do not allow oranges and his friends to deliberately shit up a thread he doesn't want to answer to.

[oranges]

I and the headmins have actually have come up with a solution on the basis that filtering still leaves the etherals in the winning position, we're just waiting for MSO to do the filtering to confirm the result to announce it.

[NoxVS]

Make a decision from this poll instead of making us go through another two weeks of voting because some people disagree with the wording.

This is not an issue with the wording of the poll. The problem is that the poll is slanted toward removing felinids because it motivates the voter with the promise of adding a brand new race if felinids are removed. If we are going to decide the issue based on this tainted poll, it should be a default win for felinids remaining because the poll is slanted against them, and because all of the previous (three?) polls, which were not tainted in this way, showed a win for keeping felinids.

Damn Oranges, all you had to do was make a poll biased for catpeople so you could give a default win to removing them. I had no clue it was this easy.

[afelinidisfinetoo]

I and the headmins have actually have come up with a solution on the basis that filtering still leaves the etherals in the winning position, we're just waiting for MSO to do the filtering to confirm the result to announce it.

Since you cannot announce it now, could you instead answer the questions in the OP?

[wesoda25]

I’m pretty anti-cat, but I have to admit the poll was wonky. I knew that my best bet of getting cats removed was to vote for ethereals, which is why it was my number one vote. I really couldn’t care less if we get more reference species added, although I’m not against the idea of only human station (ohhhh but wesoda plasmamen are cooooooooollllll - just add a combustible turtle and be done with it).

That being said, a varied poll is a better choice than the binary one we had formally, it was far too generalized. I think two separate polls should have been run, one with varying levels of cat removal (with options briefly detailing other species addition) and the other to decide which species would replace cats in the event they lost the poll. Although, there would be merit in running the replacement poll first, so as to make sure the vote was sound.

[oranges]

You know it doesn't make any sense to put that as your number one vote right? It just has to be higher than the remove cats option

Do you even understand how the IRV poll works?

[afelinidisfinetoo]

...

I appreciate that you admit the poll was biased even though it was biased toward the result you wanted. People should not eagerly accept this type of thing, because it can just as easily point in a direction they dislike next time.

[wesoda25]

You know it doesn't make any sense to put that as your number one vote right? It just has to be higher than the remove cats option

Do you even understand how the IRV poll works?

I mean I guess.

Still my greatest greivance is that the poll options were kinda weird. Like theres two removal options with exceptions, but I just wanted hard removal. Since the only hard removal options included adding two races I don’t care about, I was forced to choose between the two.

Also felinid the vote stands regardless of its oddity. I’m saying the strange part involves adding new species, saying “poll is biased against cats so cats win by default” is stupid. The bias would only affect whether or not coder approved species such as ethereals are added, meaning at most the bias gets something added the playerbase doesn’t truly want.

[NoxVS]

Still my greatest greivance is that the poll options were kinda weird. Like theres two removal options with exceptions, but I just wanted hard removal. Since the only hard removal options included adding two races I don’t care about, I was forced to choose between the two.

There was a choice for just a hard removal of catpeople.

[afelinidisfinetoo]

Also felinids the vote stands regardless of its oddity.

The vote is not odd, it's tainted. I've already explained how and why: the "Remove felinids and add <x> enticing new race>" options are voter bribery. The results of the vote are worthless and cannot be accepted.

[wesoda25]

Still my greatest greivance is that the poll options were kinda weird. Like theres two removal options with exceptions, but I just wanted hard removal. Since the only hard removal options included adding two races I don’t care about, I was forced to choose between the two.

There was a choice for just a hard removal of catpeople.

Nope. I don't want headbands to remain (laser pointers are fine). Lord knows admins will just spawn 50 headbands round start so their waifus can remain attractive. I want absolute removal, which was offered with only replacement of IPCs and Ethereals. Which forced me to choose between the two. Which, in a way, forced me to support the coder schedule that I normally wouldn't.

The vote is not odd, it's tainted. I've already explained how and why: the "Remove felinids and add <x> enticing new race>" options are voter bribery. The results of the vote are worthless and cannot be accepted.

Your logic is bad because, guess WHAT, giving a monochromatic, yes or no vote, would BIAS votes of people who maybe want cats removed, but on certain grounds. Meaning someone would only want cats removed if ethereals were added in replacement would be biased to vote no on removing cats. The new poll gives a more fair representation of the playerbase, something all the former cat polls fell short of. I still believe it isn't perfect though.

[Shezza]

>1 option to keep cats
>4 options to remove them

Not biased at all guys

[Shadowflame909]

>1 option to keep cats
>4 options to remove them

Not biased at all guys

are neko ears not cat enough for you!1! You get the tail and the ears! The only downside is you can't wear any cool armored hats if you're into that armor protection grind

[afelinidisfinetoo]

Your logic is bad because, guess WHAT, giving a monochromatic, yes or no vote, would BIAS votes of people who maybe want cats removed, but on certain grounds.

This has nothing to do with what I posted. You just kind of wrote something off your flow chart and ignored what I said.

[subject217]

just stop reading the thread lol

skimmed over this dumpster fire and will not be checking in again, no reason for you to do any different. nothing remotely productive or useful will come out of this thread.

[oranges]

so negative subreddit217

[Shadowflame909]

just stop reading the thread lol

skimmed over this dumpster fire and will not be checking in again, no reason for you to do any different. nothing remotely productive or useful will come out of this thread.

As a part of this dumpster fire. I agree. It's very unlikely that cat girls wont stay in some facet. Considering how popular they are among our player base. It'd be pretty shocking to see them get completely tossed.

So there's no reason to really get fired up here.

[DemonFiren]

>keeps repeating how unlikely is that cats will go
>keeps bringing up the playerbase's wants and desires as reason
lmao separation is absolute newfag