Bottom post of the previous page:
no but i realized i should add this and I will add warning messages for the player4dplanner wrote:Do you get warning before the greensprite?
Bottom post of the previous page:
no but i realized i should add this and I will add warning messages for the player4dplanner wrote:Do you get warning before the greensprite?
wesoda25 wrote:Hygiene is a pure shit PR, it adds no sort of depth or complexity to the game, its just annoying as fuck to look at. Mood made sense. Hunger made sense. Its fucking an online atmos simulator who the fuck cares about virtual hygiene.
Lets take bets on how long until the server is flooded with even more shitty character gimmicks, this time involving smelling bad. Fuck lizard players probably get turned on by this shit.
If it was added for the "realism" argument, then lets make one gunshot kill/knockout someone. Then it'll be more realistic, right??!
have you actually played since hygiene was added because I feel like the wacky people that post about it keep missing the part where its not just one click because they havn't played and thus didn't notice the second change I addedWarbossLincoln wrote:wesoda25 wrote:Hygiene is a pure shit PR, it adds no sort of depth or complexity to the game, its just annoying as fuck to look at. Mood made sense. Hunger made sense. Its fucking an online atmos simulator who the fuck cares about virtual hygiene.
Lets take bets on how long until the server is flooded with even more shitty character gimmicks, this time involving smelling bad. Fuck lizard players probably get turned on by this shit.
If it was added for the "realism" argument, then lets make one gunshot kill/knockout someone. Then it'll be more realistic, right??!
As a gun nut I feel I have to point out what others most likely have, it's kind of a crap shoot if a gunshot actually incapacitates someone quickly. It all depends on shot placement, robustness of the individual, luck, etc. Even someone shot in the heart could live long enough to shoot you back if the shock of it didn't take them down. It's also the only reason shotguns are any good. Shotguns are big, heavy, high recoil, easy to short shuck on a pump and somewhat easy to jam on an automatic, not easy to shoot well, each projectile causes less trauma and overpenetrates compared to a rifle. But in a single shot you get 9-30ish chances depending on shot size to hit something vital compared to 1, that's their advantage.
On topic: Hygiene was a bad idea and all it does is add a distracting overlay. It doesn't add anything to gameplay and if you care enough to get rid of it you just need 1 click on a shower and it instantly goes away. One time back on NOX they added shit to the game and that was more immersive than hygene. And that was so dumb and terrible that even NOX removed it after a week.
Hygiene itself doesn't, it does generate miasma but it takes awhile for it to actually have any effect on a person. at least in the current game. Now that scrubbers will no longer be scrubbing miasma by default there may be a more noticeable effect from miasma buildup from improper body storage and other miasma generators like gibs.Lumbermancer wrote:Doesn't it confer negative moodlet? Doesn't it generate miasma? Doesn't it spotaneously generate diseases?
if it's cosmetic then why is it so god damn annoying?Grazyn wrote:Well duh doy, if showering was so simple then the feature would be too easy to ignore. But again, being dirty is entirely cosmetic, it doesn't affect mood, miasma takes a long time to spawn and it wouldn't even affect you if you move out of the cloud fast enough
Yes, it's the fucking sprite. It's like the fear of miasma except stinking doesn't create atmos gas that can fuck over shit if given enough time (except indirectly it does). In order to make said sprite not be an issue, I'd basically have to go "yo, can you just remove the negative part of stinking????" which I doubt Qustinnus would ever fucking do since that defeats his PR. Even if the sprite was lowered to a less visible level, I think it would still cause issue since who the fuck wants that?Grazyn wrote:What exactly is annoying about it, the sprite? Then complain about the sprite.
if only i was a murderboning dickhead who utilized this.Shadowflame909 wrote:here's how we can abuse this to kill players
Scottbert wrote:This new mechanic just isn't fun, for a couple of reasons:
I. In the context of the rest of the game, having to strip all your clothes off is just not practical (unless you're the virologist/CMO and can use the decontamination shower) -- everyone is rightly afraid of getting griefed, and BYOND's clunky interface makes undressing and redressing a pain. Also, not all maps have showers in all departments.
II. Since people can't practically wash off the stink, the clouds are just a big annoying eyesore and encouragement for people to shout YOU STINK at eachother.
III. Edit: Just learned miasma makes disease! But it feels like it's impossible to keep up with all these random plagues as medbay.
After this point, I speak not as a critic but as an aspiring game designer.
II is mainly a side effect of I. So, what can we do to address I? It depends on what the goal of the hygiene system is. I can think of three; whoever's behind the hygiene system, feel free to chime in and correct me:
A. Realism!
B. Memes about NEETs and neat freaks!
C. Catching someone when they shower adds another way for antags to do their thing.
Solution 1: If the point of hygiene is to allow people to RP neat freaks or slobs, I can think of a fix that keeps this without being as annoying to everyone else:
*Characters with neither quirk don't use the hygiene system.
*Characters with the neat freak quirk do suffer from hygiene, but they get a positive mood when clean, they don't make miasma and only they can see the stink clouds on themselves: They're only dirty to their own exacting standards, after all, they look clean to everyone else. The inconvenience of stripping and showering on Space Station 13 is their own choice, the challenge they have to complete to keep their mood bonus.
*Characters with the NEET trait... okay, I can't think of how to make this fun for everyone. 'they get a mood bonus for being stinky' seems meh, and 'hygiene applies to them and generates miasma' will be used for them to grief everyone else with miasma, and possibly to coworkers cuffing them and dragging them to the showers. This needs workshopping.
Solution 2: If the point of hygiene is realism... Honestly, I don't feel it is realistic. SS13 shifts are usually 1-2 hours. If you're doing a relatively sedentary job you're not getting that dirty that fast; if you have a very active job you're probably okay with being sweaty for an hour or two. I suppose it COULD make sense to apply for someone who's been covered an alien goo or vomited on or something. Still, if you want to nod to realism while compromising with playability, you'd need to do several things:
*Showering in clothes counts for hygiene. Removing them is not good gameplay.
*Showering in clothes does not give you a negative mood.
*Change the maps to make sure there are accessible showers in every department.
Solution 2a: Make stinky status and having to shower nude very rare. It shouldn't be something that can happen to most of a department at once; maybe a few people a round at most. We don't want lines forming outside the one shower on the map where everyone has to stop doing their jobs and be extra paranoid about their stuff. Also, every player dealing with it every shift is an annoyance; it being a sort of event (or inflicted by a rare enemy?) that can happen to someone once in awhile is more of a challenge players can engage with.
Solution 3: If the point of hygiene is to give antags another way to catch their victims at a vulnerable point... I can see a few ways to engage with this:
*Solution 2a, above, sort of works for this too. Of course, your target won't always be the one hit with a stink-causing event, but when they are, what a happy accident!
*Stink could be something player-caused. However, in this case it needs to be rare enough that every round doesn't consist of the clowntide spreading stink around everywhere. However, if it's rare and player-caused, that might make it obvious that if you get stinkbombed, someone is after you and planning to ambush you in the shower. This needs workshopping.
*Instead of requiring stripping clothes, add a special interaction with showers, 'take shower', that takes a few seconds to complete, and leaves you unable to use any slots except your hands for a few seconds when finished or interrupted (the same status effect might make stripping faster for anyone trying to remove your gear, too.) This is functionally the same as what we have now but removes the tedious clicking and makes gear a bit less likely to be stolen.
*Solution 1 sort of helps here; Sometimes your target will be a neat freak, and then you'll get to ambush them in the shower if you want.
Solution 4: Just remove hygiene. The game was fine before it. (This also applies to any argument of 'just ignore it it doesn't really matter lol' -- if people are supposed to ignore it, why have it in the first place?)
Edit: The disease angle is an interesting idea, but as it is it feels like it's impossible for medbay to keep up. Changes that make the stink rarer might alleviate this anyway; another possibility I can think of is to limit the spread of these diseases to people who are themselves unclean, and possibly give them a chance to cure on their own after an infectee gets clean.
I hope that whoever designed the hygiene system finds this post helpful.
if i added moodlets to it people would cry because whenever I add moodlets to things the dots get connected as me forcing literal hitler standards of rp.Grazyn wrote:"If people are supposed to ignore it why have it in the first place"
They're not supposed to ignore it, but they can ignore it with almost negligible consequences. Not every single feature in the game is mandatory to play. Just think for a second, if Qustinnus didn't want people to ignore it, all he had to do was make bad hygiene give a bad mood. Instead, he chose to make it so the worst thing that can happen is miasma after a very long time which has a ridiculously remote chance to negatively affect you (even if you get a virus, it's likely that curing it will be still faster than showering). Not only that, but he even added a trait that rewards you for ignoring hygiene.
washing your hands works just fine with clothes onAyy Lemoh wrote: if it's cosmetic then why is it so god damn annoying?
when have you ever been unable to get clean from washing your hands because you accidently wore glasses? I can get someone not getting clean while having a jumpsuit and armor vest on however a fucking backpack and shoes prevents me from getting clean? Do I have the fucking downs?!
No, adding moodlets to hygiene would cause negative reactions because the showering change would go from "receiving a buff is harder" to "removing a debuff is harder"Qustinnus wrote:if i added moodlets to it people would cry because whenever I add moodlets to things the dots get connected as me forcing literal hitler standards of rp.Grazyn wrote:"If people are supposed to ignore it why have it in the first place"
They're not supposed to ignore it, but they can ignore it with almost negligible consequences. Not every single feature in the game is mandatory to play. Just think for a second, if Qustinnus didn't want people to ignore it, all he had to do was make bad hygiene give a bad mood. Instead, he chose to make it so the worst thing that can happen is miasma after a very long time which has a ridiculously remote chance to negatively affect you (even if you get a virus, it's likely that curing it will be still faster than showering). Not only that, but he even added a trait that rewards you for ignoring hygiene.
I understand that it's generally annoying for critics/players to tell game designers how to do their job; I concede that but thought my suggestions were at least a little better thought out and showed some knowledge of how they might effect the gameplay experience.Qustinnus wrote:i feel like starting your suggestion with "as an aspiring game designer" really useless because it holds as much value to me as all the other suggestions.
I get the impression their goal is to ram through shitty features, dunno why. Probably retaliation for removing catgirls, the coders are mostly degenerates like that.Scottbert wrote:I understand that it's generally annoying for critics/players to tell game designers how to do their job; I concede that but thought my suggestions were at least a little better thought out and showed some knowledge of how they might effect the gameplay experience.Qustinnus wrote:i feel like starting your suggestion with "as an aspiring game designer" really useless because it holds as much value to me as all the other suggestions.
Perhaps if you explained what the goal of the hygiene system is, it would make players more understanding and generate more useful suggestions -- as it is, people can only spam 'remove hygiene' or provide suggestions based on guesses.
Lol okay hence why we're dicussing how to tweak hygiene's design so it's less shit.Grazyn wrote:Design isn't part of development because it's just an open repository where everyone can contribute. The name "project" is misleading
>I make a feature that's bad because it's unfinished, unrefined, and unbalanced. People have a bad reaction to it and hate it.Scottbert wrote:I understand that it's generally annoying for critics/players to tell game designers how to do their job; I concede that but thought my suggestions were at least a little better thought out and showed some knowledge of how they might effect the gameplay experience.Qustinnus wrote:i feel like starting your suggestion with "as an aspiring game designer" really useless because it holds as much value to me as all the other suggestions.
Perhaps if you explained what the goal of the hygiene system is, it would make players more understanding and generate more useful suggestions -- as it is, people can only spam 'remove hygiene' or provide suggestions based on guesses.
I mean, anyone can make a PR to tweak how hygiene works, or even remove it, and Qustinnus wouldnt have any say on it, only maintainers. That's what "design isn't part of development" means. So there's no point in inquiring about the "goal" behind this change, or getting angry at Qustinnus like he's supposed to tweak it to fit some non-existant "design".Zarniwoop wrote:Lol okay hence why we're dicussing how to tweak hygiene's design so it's less shit.Grazyn wrote:Design isn't part of development because it's just an open repository where everyone can contribute. The name "project" is misleading
No. You don't get to unilaterally break the game if you're not willing to do the work to fix it. "This feature would be great if other people did stuff" does not make the feature great. They aren't doing the stuff -- you're doing stuff which is making the game better or worse. What you have here is called a 'design constraint'; any change going in immediately needs to work with the maps as-is. If you have a really cool idea that requires map changes, and you're not willing to do them, you're going to need to work with a mapper to implement them. Teamwork, it makes the dream work!Qustinnus wrote:The mapping problem isn't my problem, because I'm not going to edit 8 maps, either the maintainers should cull non-maintained maps or the map maintainers should update the maps.
I don't want an impression, I want their reasons. How can we give constructive feedback otherwise? What's bothersome to me is it doesn't seem to have been explained at any point. They leave us to guess at their goals, and then shrug off anything we say as not useful because we don't know what they're trying to do.Zarniwoop wrote:I get the impression...
True; I don't fully understand the code yet, but if I did I could edit it the same as anyone else. And that would lead to what? In this hypothetical, Qustinnus and I fighting over conflicting versions of hygiene, not talking to eachother, and... I'm not sure how that resolves, does the code keep going back and forth or what?Grazyn wrote: I mean, anyone can make a PR to tweak how hygiene works, or even remove it, and Qustinnus wouldnt have any say on it, only maintainers. That's what "design isn't part of development" means. So there's no point in inquiring about the "goal" behind this change, or getting angry at Qustinnus like he's supposed to tweak it to fit some non-existant "design".
What are you, goofball liteQustinnus wrote:The mapping problem isn't my problem, because I'm not going to edit 8 maps, either the maintainers should cull non-maintained maps or the map maintainers should update the maps.
I warned you guys about having too many maps, but you didn't listen.Denton wrote:What are you, goofball liteQustinnus wrote:The mapping problem isn't my problem, because I'm not going to edit 8 maps, either the maintainers should cull non-maintained maps or the map maintainers should update the maps.
There are no map maintainers and fixing your shit is really not too much to ask for.
I'm assuming you mean as in make the shower rooms more relevant/better suited, so here's a start.Qustinnus wrote: Also Denton no shit. This is why oranges needs to kill off all the maps that have no people updating them. The coders don't want to edit 7~ maps and then hope nothing conflicts while the PR is up.
awesome, yeah thats exactly what I meanMMMiracles wrote:I'm assuming you mean as in make the shower rooms more relevant/better suited, so here's a start.Qustinnus wrote: Also Denton no shit. This is why oranges needs to kill off all the maps that have no people updating them. The coders don't want to edit 7~ maps and then hope nothing conflicts while the PR is up.
Scottbert wrote:I don't want an impression, I want their reasons. How can we give constructive feedback otherwise? What's bothersome to me is it doesn't seem to have been explained at any point. They leave us to guess at their goals, and then shrug off anything we say as not useful because we don't know what they're trying to do.Zarniwoop wrote:I get the impression...
....
we can't help him find out if his idea is fun or not if he won't tell us what his idea is.
Clearly, you won't bother reading our posts no matter what we say. I'm here asking you to just tell us what you're trying to accomplish with the hygiene system so we can have a useful discussion about how to achieve it if it sounds like a good idea, or why it's a bad idea if it doesn't. Are you going to let us do that, or are you just going to keep pretending no one is trying to help you so you can feel victimized?Qustinnus wrote:...if all you have to post is "You're goof 2" or "this is catgirl revenge"...I won't bother reading your posts
if you think that after me posting 3 times that there'll be an improvement PR and multiple posts that contain things I'll change I'm ignoring all posts youre clearly dumb. I've been reading every post I'm just stating that if the posts contain retarded insults I'll ignore the suggestion that post has.Scottbert wrote:Scottbert wrote:I don't want an impression, I want their reasons. How can we give constructive feedback otherwise? What's bothersome to me is it doesn't seem to have been explained at any point. They leave us to guess at their goals, and then shrug off anything we say as not useful because we don't know what they're trying to do.Zarniwoop wrote:I get the impression...
....
we can't help him find out if his idea is fun or not if he won't tell us what his idea is.Clearly, you won't bother reading our posts no matter what we say. I'm here asking you to just tell us what you're trying to accomplish with the hygiene system so we can have a useful discussion about how to achieve it if it sounds like a good idea, or why it's a bad idea if it doesn't. Are you going to let us do that, or are you just going to keep pretending no one is trying to help you so you can feel victimized?Qustinnus wrote:...if all you have to post is "You're goof 2" or "this is catgirl revenge"...I won't bother reading your posts
Not everyone knows how to do that. I eventually did find it, so for anyone else wondering, here it is: https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/41986Qustinnus wrote:theres a PR for you to read, go fucking do it instead of asking me 50 times.
He has promised changes:Qustinnus wrote:This doesn't affect mood so plssss dont strawman in this PR about how I'm forcing you to shower or die or whatever
This PR is mostly visual and will allow for people to judge others for literaly being smelly as hell.
also NEET and neat traits which interact with being smelly. (neat likes hygiene, dislikes lack of it. NEETs like lack of hygiene and get some social welfare (20 bucks))
Now this, we can engage with!Qustinnus wrote:I'm going to remove the automatic draining of hygiene and make the sprite less obstructive, I might lower miasma rates and I'm going to nerf the NEET trait.
This is still wrong, though. You're the one making the change; Claiming negative results are other people's fault because they didn't do work that they never agreed to do to support your change doesn't look good. The informal nature of SS13 development cuts both ways -- People aren't being paid to follow some roadmap, and this means they won't follow you unless they want to.Qustinnus wrote:The mapping problem isn't my problem, because I'm not going to edit 8 maps, either the maintainers should cull non-maintained maps or the map maintainers should update the maps.
it was there before you started insulting me so good job.Scottbert wrote: Now this, we can engage with!
people complained that showering with clothes is dumb and I should remove it so I didScottbert wrote: What is the behavior, exactly, that you're trying to encourage people to judge? Running around in bloody clothes? It does affect mood though, when players stand under the shower and toggle it to clean the blood off their clothes, they get a negative mood. Taking off your clothes, showering them on the same tile, and putting the wet clothes back on is still putting wet clothes on and a needless extra step to avoid a mood that isn't well-integrated with this system. You could force us all to actually use the laundry system but I don't think anyone will be happy about it.
is already being solved in an upcomingScottbert wrote: If bloody clothes are the main thing that ticks hygiene, this does feel like it mainly focuses on medbay, who are too busy trying to save lives and keep people in the game to immediately clean up when someone drags a body to cloning without using a bodybag or rollerbed. And if a lot of bodies come in in sequence, they may never have time to get around to it. Although, if we could find a way to encourage people to use those, I'd be all for it! I hate how messy medbay is, although I'm more concerned about the blood trails goddamn everywhere than whether our shoes and labcoats are bloodstained. (I wish people couldn't just waltz on in but sooner or later someone unlocks the front doors)
literaly just tardwrangle players like thatScottbert wrote: I've complained about the diseases, but lowering miasma rates might make that more reasonable, I look forward to finding out.
If you want to have a trait that makes people extra stinky and encourages us to make fun of them for it, I don't see a big problem with that -- they did opt into the trait, after all. As long as it can't be used to grief -- it's bad enough when the clown hangs around playing the same 5 second song over and over again, now imagine if the clown was also stinky and could infect you with diseases by doing that? That is not something anyone wants to deal with.
resolving most of this as wellScottbert wrote: In short, I think it would help everyone deal with this system if it was clearer exactly what things are being 'punished' with inflicting hygiene. Not just on the immediate level ('not taking showers') but on the meta level ('the reason it's ticking down so fast is your clothes are dirty, and the reason your clothes are dirty is your workplace has blood and trash everywhere, clean it up'). I'd say maybe have it come with a HUD element that on mouseover tells you what's making you dirtier, but that might run into the problems you're trying to avoid by not making it a mood. But one way or another, people need a clear understanding of what they're doing that's encouraging others to call them stinky, and they have to have a real choice to not do that thing. 'You have a choice to not stop playing the game, go across the map, and risk your stuff getting stolen' isn't really a choice. 'You have a choice NOT to grab a body bag before dragging a bloody body through medbay' is a little more grippable, although in that case it'd help if we put a box of body bags in medbay lobby (Maybe there already is one and I didn't notice!)
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... remove+mapScottbert wrote:This is still wrong, though. You're the one making the change; Claiming negative results are other people's fault because they didn't do work that they never agreed to do to support your change doesn't look good. The informal nature of SS13 development cuts both ways -- People aren't being paid to follow some roadmap, and this means they won't follow you unless they want to.Qustinnus wrote:The mapping problem isn't my problem, because I'm not going to edit 8 maps, either the maintainers should cull non-maintained maps or the map maintainers should update the maps.
I agree, fixing map merge conflicts is aboutas fun as root canal surgery.Qustinnus wrote:Also Denton no shit. This is why oranges needs to kill off all the maps that have no people updating them. The coders don't want to edit 7~ maps and then hope nothing conflicts while the PR is up.
the entire ghost role thing was just a mistake on my part and I'm going to adress quite a few of the larger issues with hygiene hopefully.Denton wrote:I agree, fixing map merge conflicts is aboutas fun as root canal surgery.Qustinnus wrote:Also Denton no shit. This is why oranges needs to kill off all the maps that have no people updating them. The coders don't want to edit 7~ maps and then hope nothing conflicts while the PR is up.
I just think that if your PR makes map changes necessary, you should either include them in the PR or coordinate with someone who makes those changes for you.
Otherwise we get situations like stinky ghost roles which are unpleasant for everyone involved.
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