Give borgs damage slowdown

[PKPenguin321]

For a tl;dr, read only bolded text.

Whenever borgs are brought up, there are a million different points thrown around. These usually include shit like EMPs, remote detonation/lockdown, flashes, flash immunity, zipties, GIB SEGBORGS, etc. Nerfs and buffs tend to revolve around their polarizing gameplay, which is lame, because it means that they either get neutered to the point of being utterly useless or are utterly overpowered. In other words, borgs currently have really polarizing gameplay that makes balancing them super one-sided, either way too strong or near-useless.

In my opinion, the main reason for their polarizing gameplay is this combo: General stun immunity + Intrinsic all access + No damage slowdown. The three of these combined means that borgs are hard to stun due to being immune to common things like tasers, that they're hard to corner because all doors are open to them always no matter what (you can't even disable their access or steal their ID because it's intrinsic), and they can yakkety sax forever and ever even at 1 HP remaining and have really high speed. No fight is a risk to them, because they can always just leave a fight as soon as things get risky. It's as easy as running to the door, and nothing, not door bolts or tasers or 199 damage, will stop them. Because of this, a borg with strong equipment can throw themselves into battle haphazardly with next to no downside or risk (cough secborgs), meaning that it's always hard to justify giving a borg strong equipment.

In case I'm not being clear, damage slowdown is the system that humans have where they move slower the more damage they have. This system could be translated pretty much 1 for 1 to borgs.

I believe that fixing or removing any one of the three main components of said combo will fix their gameplay. The first combo component, general stun immunity, while controversial, is a unique aspect to borgs and would absolutely cripple them if it were removed outright. They already lack hands, chemical reactions, and equipment slots, so they would actually be more vulnerable to stuns than a human if this was removed. Because of this, I don't think it should be the combo component we focus on. The second combo component, intrinsic all access, is also too tricky of a problem to fix. Should borgs only have access to certain departments? They would be severely limited compared to humans if that were the case. Should we give them an ID slot? It would be awfully snowflakely and HoPs could just give them all access again anyways. It's a very unique problem with no clear or immediately and obviously good solution, so I don't think that this should be the combo component we tackle, either. That leaves no damage slowdown as the remaining combo component for us to fix.

Adding damage slowdown would make fights risky for borgs and would prevent them from exploiting their speed. A borg that narrowly escapes a fight wouldn't be able to run back in at full speed, grab a guy who's in crit, and run back out again with 0 downside. A borg that enters a fight would have a very real chance of not being able to escape it at all if they get too damaged; somebody looking to finish them off could close the distance on them if they were slowed down. A human who gets in a fight with a borg but lacks EMPs or a flash would be able to fend the borg off if they have a decent weapon, rather than being completely unable to handle borg hit-and-run tactics. Essentially what I'm getting at is that damage slowdown would level the playing field in fights between borgs and non-borgs in such a way that it doesn't outright cripple borgs in other ways, like how removing intrinsic all access or stun immunity would. It would also remove gimmicky, unfun hit-and-run tactics that borgs (especially engiborgs, who can self-repair) tend to abuse thanks to their constant full runspeed.

There are other unseen benefits to this, as well. With fights being riskier for borgs thanks to damage slowdown, there will be legitimate grounds to add some stronger gear to them (maybe not secborgs outright though, their ranged weapon still lets them hit-and-run very easily). There's no denying that they've been stuck in a perpetual nerf cycle these past few years, but a fundamental change like this might fix that. I won't dwell on this topic, because it's hard to say exactly what might be changed in the future.

Let me know what you think.

[oranges]

maybe not secborgs outright

I WAKE

otherwise good idea

[pubby]

Pretty good idea.

Alternative idea is to remove welder healing from borgs. Make healing them require a roboticist.

[Mickyan]

You forgot being totally impervious to environmental damage as one of their major advantages which they can and will abuse to kill people without even getting themselves in fighting range

[PKPenguin321]

You forgot being totally impervious to environmental damage as one of their major advantages which they can and will abuse to kill people without even getting themselves in fighting range

I think this is forgivable since it only really applies to things like malf AIs flooding plasma or N2O or whatever. Generally speaking, this falls under the "Intrinsic all access" part of the aforementioned combo, since it means they have access to space as well.

[somerandomguy]

>no fight is a risk
not true, if anyone has a flash you're flat-out dead
and if the victim gets a scream out over common you can bet that you're going to be hunted down (by someone with a flash) or outright blown
not to mention that borgs usually only get into fights at all if the AI is malf or subverted or they've been emagged

[DemonFiren]

good old pk

[PKPenguin321]

>no fight is a risk
not true, if anyone has a flash you're flat-out dead
and if the victim gets a scream out over common you can bet that you're going to be hunted down (by someone with a flash) or outright blown
not to mention that borgs usually only get into fights at all if the AI is malf or subverted or they've been emagged

Yes, thank you for pointing that out, as I also did in my first paragraph and immediately dismissed as not being the focus of my argument.

[NoxVS]

I think it would be better if borgs began to slowly malfunction rather than slow down. So their hearing begins to fail and everything becomes the staticy text. They begin to speak like that, vision begins to fail and become static, reduced action times so they cant heal themselves as quickly, not sure if this is possible but perhaps increased energy usage and reduced charging rate, make it so things like welding torches use more fuel. Borgs are already stronger in some areas but weaker in others, removing the areas they are stronger in will just make them a weaker version of an augmented human.

[PKPenguin321]

I think it would be better if borgs began to slowly malfunction rather than slow down. So their hearing begins to fail and everything becomes the staticy text. They begin to speak like that, vision begins to fail and become static, reduced action times so they cant heal themselves as quickly, not sure if this is possible but perhaps increased energy usage and reduced charging rate, make it so things like welding torches use more fuel. Borgs are already stronger in some areas but weaker in others, removing the areas they are stronger in will just make them a weaker version of an augmented human.

I don't think that that would impact them nearly enough for any real net benefit. It wouldn't really fix hit-and-run tactics and doesn't address the core issue of them just having too strong of an ability to simply leave a dangerous situation by walking away. As for the fear of nerfing them to the point of being worse than humans, I talk about that at length in this paragraph:

I believe that fixing or removing any one of the three main components of said combo will fix their gameplay. The first combo component, general stun immunity, while controversial, is a unique aspect to borgs and would absolutely cripple them if it were removed outright. They already lack hands, chemical reactions, and equipment slots, so they would actually be more vulnerable to stuns than a human if this was removed. Because of this, I don't think it should be the combo component we focus on. The second combo component, intrinsic all access, is also too tricky of a problem to fix. Should borgs only have access to certain departments? They would be severely limited compared to humans if that were the case. Should we give them an ID slot? It would be awfully snowflakely and HoPs could just give them all access again anyways. It's a very unique problem with no clear or immediately and obviously good solution, so I don't think that this should be the combo component we tackle, either. That leaves no damage slowdown as the remaining combo component for us to fix.

Basically, damage slowdown would impact borgs very minimally outside of the issue I'm trying to address, whereas removing their all access or making them vulnerable to stuns would make them awfully inferior to humans not just in combat but as a general thing. Damage slowdown isn't even that bad of a nerf by itself, but it still works to fix the issue because it disrupts the hit-and-run combo that I talk about.

[confused rock]

what if wheel borgs move slower when turning around

[Daxxed]

This sounds like an I ded but I dont play borg so I approve.

[obscolene]

Yes, please. Borgs are insanely overpowered, and the only thing that holds them back is their lawset. When they are unchained, it's Fuck'd.

[Shadowflame909]

My only question is, how will this affect Vtec borgs vs the borgs without the Vtec upgrade.

Will the slowdown stay the same no matter what if you have the upgrade or not? If so, that'd be pretty jarring from going lightning fast to a snail's pace after darting through lasers.

I think it's a good idea. I just hope it doesn't make them entirely useless and unplayable, like the poor plasma-men we have now due to server-wide speed slow-downs.

[Floiven]

Instead of just a simple loss of speed, it'd be neat if stuff like mechanical failures would randomly happen at higher rates depending on the damage. Stuff like (and I don't know how possible this is to code) temporary loss of controls meaking you careen into a wall, loss of ability to turn a certain direction (treads on one side are damaged), stuttering of being able to move/stopping randomly etc. Gives it the while DANGER MALFUNCTIONING MOTORS/PROPULSION SYSTEM feel, with little error noises like the MULES have

[tinodrima7020]

April fools came a little early, huh guys?

I don't know why you want to make borgs essentially fully augmented humans, but with laws and the ability to be killed at any time via console, but alright.

[zxaber]

If you're gonna add on such a big downside, the ability to blow them up should be removed. As is, there's a constant looming threat of being randomly blown up at any time, for potentially no real reason at all, from any distance, and instantly, by anyone with a least robotics access.

Instead of just a simple loss of speed, it'd be neat if stuff like mechanical failures would randomly happen at higher rates depending on the damage. Stuff like (and I don't know how possible this is to code) temporary loss of controls meaking you careen into a wall, loss of ability to turn a certain direction (treads on one side are damaged), stuttering of being able to move/stopping randomly etc. Gives it the while DANGER MALFUNCTIONING MOTORS/PROPULSION SYSTEM feel, with little error noises like the MULES have

Anyway, if something did have to be added, this is a neater change that doesn't just make borgs closer to being metal-flavored humans

[Nalzul]

I think slowdown is a copout to a more skillful way to handle borgs. You know that stuttering when you're hella drunk? I think that should happen as a borg gets more and more damaged.

[oranges]

April fools came a little early, huh guys?

I don't know why you want to make borgs essentially fully augmented humans, but with laws and the ability to be killed at any time via console, but alright.

blame the person who added the stupid robot augments, which i would like to see removed.

[oranges]

I think slowdown is a copout to a more skillful way to handle borgs. You know that stuttering when you're hella drunk? I think that should happen as a borg gets more and more damaged.

yeah cause stuttering will really affect them meaningfully nazul, great post

[gum disease]

The year has just started and I'm already on suicide watch. :^(

On a serious note, I also would like to know how this will affect borgs with the VTEC upgrade. Will the damage slowdown supercede the speed boost it gives borgs, or will the boost be taken into account? If so, this will almost certainly mean it will be a mandatory upgrade to apply to borgs. I would also prefer a slowdown over the RNG malfunctions that have been suggested in this thread, because the latter sounds like a legitimately terrible gameplay mechanic. On paper, yeah it's interesting - but in practice, it just sounds awful to experience.

Nowhere in this thread has anyone brought up the fact that when borgs are damaged, they eventually lose access to their modules. If they are incredibly damaged, unless the chargers are fully upgraded/they have the self-repair upgrade/someone is kind enough to fix them, they are useless. This damage handicap is guaranteed, 100% every time and on top of that, it's announced with audio and flavour text cues to everyone in range. Personally, I thought that was the damage penalty for borgs - loss of modules. If a borg can't access its modules, it isn't an immediate threat or one at all, depending on the module. For borgs modules that have the ability to self-repair, this is less of an issue - but as someone who usually plays medical borg (who cannot self-repair) and tries very hard to keep people alive against the odds, this is really awful.

I would prefer for things such as disablers to affect borgs, over this.

[oranges]

they only lose access to slots not the modules, unless they're at the very highest levels of damage threshold at which point it's irrelevant

[gum disease]

Semantics, cheeky fruit. I meant module slots.

As someone who has a disgusting amount of time played as borg, I still believe that loss of modules slots does have a very much relevant and negative impact, and is something that should be taken into consideration if another damage penalty is going to applied to borgs. I don't think that's an unreasonable request.

Overall slowdown just seems like a very heavy-handed "solution" to me, but of course I'm biased given that this is pertinent to something that I almost exclusively play.

[confused rock]

I kinda like how humans get weak legs when hurt and borgs get weakened arms with less modules. too bad that basically means fucking nothing.

[MisterPerson]

I kinda like how humans get weak legs when hurt and borgs get weakened arms with less modules. too bad that basically means fucking nothing.

Yearly reminder to be like cyborgs and not skip leg day so you too can get shot in the legs and not run any slower.

[Incomptinence]

Lack of damage slowdown is basically just a symptom of endemic lack of complexity on the part of cyborgs compared to organics.

Slowdown? As noted nope.

Loss of blood or other exhaustible internal resource over time with untreated damage to discourage just tanking everything to the last point of health? Nope.

Dismemberment? Nope even though we allow humans to have cyborg parts replace their own via augments THEN we let it be dismembered. Hell they don't even take damage to individual body parts.

Interaction with any kind of chemical reagent? Other than emp or straight up explosions nope. We have thermite and acids these should inflict some damage at least.

Embedding? No and I honestly don't see why it wouldn't be possible. Hard but possible.

Hell I honestly think they should have their outer shell of metal track its damage and once it is damaged enough their seels should be broken and their internal circuitry should melt into a puddle in plasma fires.

As brain dead as playing medical is we have garnered a lot of systems for human complexity over the years and unlike simple mobs cyborgs aren't designed for low overhead so they can be mass spawned, they've just been left behind.

[Dr_bee]

April fools came a little early, huh guys?

I don't know why you want to make borgs essentially fully augmented humans, but with laws and the ability to be killed at any time via console, but alright.

blame the person who added the stupid robot augments, which i would like to see removed.

Care to explain why you dont like augments? they seem like a feature that can be easily improved upon with noticeable upsides and downsides for taking them.

Dismemberment? Nope even though we allow humans to have cyborg parts replace their own via augments THEN we let it be dismembered. Hell they don't even take damage to individual body parts.

Goonborgs? I reference goon way to often but goonborgs do have part customization as well as dismemberment.

[Incomptinence]

Yeah customisation would be best honestly however the sprites we have are pretty incompatible with customisation proper so I left that out.

[4dplanner]

Could be cool if borgs had damage slowdown AND more interesting glitches than just losing module slots.

[PKPenguin321]

Goonborgs would be cool, but from what i understand, adding them would essentially mean replacing our borgs almost entirely which isn't really what I'm trying to do with this thread

[Incomptinence]

Yeah sorry for going a bit off topic simply just being a big 200 hp slab is hard to ignore.

[lmwevil]

tbh just reducing the amount of damage needed for each module lost, and having a set slowdown as they lose each module (to a crawl on the last) should be fine, having them exactly like humans isn't as fun

[Incomptinence]

I would say pkp's idea is a place holder. Sure having them do it differently than humans like say slowdown based more on limb damage or loss of a lubricant like oil as they leak would be better than tying it to base health but the result of barely changing them just so they are different is how we got here.

It started out as a good idea but it ended up as difference via negligence.

[Drynwyn]

This would be good, provided it's implemented as a complete solution, coupled with improved cyborg equipment. But it wouldn't be. Someone would add damage slowdown to borgs, then internal politics would make getting any buffs done a crapshoot.

[oranges]

>buffing one of the strongest on station roles

man you hilarious

[NoxVS]

>buffing one of the strongest on station roles

Unless someone has a flash
Or an ion rifle/carbine
Or a flashbang
Or all access/RD access
Or an AI upload (Unless malf AI of course)
Or uranium metal and a blender
Or an EMP implant/flashlight

While borgs are very powerful they also have very crippling weaknesses. IMO borgs are in a good position right now and can’t be nerfed effectively without changing their weaknesses as well. Making borgs slow down upon taking damage results in one stun from a flash or ion rifle or whatever be pretty much a guaranteed death. Before you could just hope to run away upon the stun ending, but this would make it so with the damage afflicted you can’t run away and either get stunned again or killed.

I think if the slowdown is implemented, other borg weaknesses should be toned down a little to compensate. Maybe that’s reducing the stun duration or making it so a stun isn’t affected as much (remains awake). Especially since an entire antagonist relies on borgs and others can chose to control silicons at the cost of revealing themselves should any cyborg die or the AI have their laws changed

[Drynwyn]

>buffing one of the strongest on station roles

man you hilarious

the op specifically says "With fights being riskier for borgs thanks to damage slowdown, there will be legitimate grounds to add some stronger gear to them" but thanks for demonstrating my point for me

[PKPenguin321]

>buffing one of the strongest on station roles

man you hilarious

the op specifically says "With fights being riskier for borgs thanks to damage slowdown, there will be legitimate grounds to add some stronger gear to them" but thanks for demonstrating my point for me

yeah. the idea is to bring borgs down on a more fundamental level so that they can be buffed in other ways, and hopefully to eventually make them more fun and rounded out for both borg players and people playing against the borg (people playing WITH the borgs should hopefully be relatively unaffected, i feel that humans teaming with borgs is actually in a really good place right now). i'm not trying to just nerf them for no reason (as i'm sure some people may assume i am).

[Shadowflame909]

A good point has been made, ion guns would be even more unsurvivable if you can't run away from barely surviving.

[Steelpoint]

On the opposite end, seeing a Borg that is one silver of health from death sprinting away at maximum speed after tanking a massive assault is always annoying to deal with.

Perhaps if you are concerned of the prevalence of Ion weapons (just stop RnD from researching Ion Carbines) then perhaps, with the addition of borg slowdown, you could make EMP hits from Ion attacks inflict massive slowdown instead of making them unmoveable. Reserving the full stun for a Flash or Flashbang.

[leibniz]

A good point has been made, ion guns would be even more unsurvivable if you can't run away from barely surviving.

That's mainly because ion weapons are shitty

[DemonFiren]

On the opposite end, seeing a Borg that is one silver of health from death sprinting away at maximum speed after tanking a massive assault is always annoying to deal with.

Perhaps if you are concerned of the prevalence of Ion weapons (just stop RnD from researching Ion Carbines) then perhaps, with the addition of borg slowdown, you could make EMP hits from Ion attacks inflict massive slowdown instead of making them unmoveable. Reserving the full stun for a Flash or Flashbang.

>reserve the full stun for security standard issue weapons that are much easier to acquire
Classic Steelpoint right there.

[Steelpoint]

I don't understand what you are trying to suggest? I stated a possibility of removing the hard stun from the Ion Rifle and restricting it to Flashes and Flashbangs.

[DemonFiren]

Which won't change terribly much, since combat is still stun-and-done and flash weapons are much more common than ion weapons. See: all the flashes, flashbangs, and flashers Security has vs the one ion rifle.

[Anuv]

Voted yes. There is absolutely nothing more frustrating than trying to kill a Borg, your flash burning out when they're close to dead, then they zip out at light speed at 3% health.

Engiborg self repair also has to go 100%.

That said, I think it's also way too easy to blow borgs when they're hacked. Make blowing borgs something you can only do with an emagged robotics console. Or maybe only malf AIs can do naturally. Lock down is never, ever used when someone cries rogue borg.

[somerandomguy]

If your flash burns out while killing a borg (and you haven't used it recently otherwise) you timed it wrong and deserve what you get.

Engiborg can only selfheal if they're not stunned or dead. If you're trying to kill a borg without a stun, you're not supposed to succeed.

Also if damage slowdown is added flashes and flashbangs need a nerf as currently they're just as powerful as the weapon that's built to kill borgs.

[4dplanner]

I'm considering PRing this, though I think there should be some buffs to compensate ( for instance flash stuns lasting for seconds, not calendar months)

Edit: reasoning is that borgs are currently a strange mix of immunities and hard counters, and removing only the immunities is a bad idea.

[4dplanner]

To be honest, I don't really like the robotics console at all, and I'd like to see it go if slowdown became a thing.

[gum disease]

I'd still like to know what potential upgrades you have in mind for borgs to compensate for the damage slowdown nerf. This proposed change will significantly affect how borgs are played, so I'm interested to hear what borgs could be given that wouldn't make them broken.

With regard to flashes, unless you have extremely terrible RNG where your flash burns out after like 2 uses, you should be able to kill or seriously incapacitate a borg with 2 or 3 flash uses if you time it correctly. When people flash me (and fail to kill me), they generally spam flash and bash, which I'd regard as an error on their part and isn't something the borg player should be punished for. Players are given very obvious audio and visual cues about how badly they are damaging a borg, so it's not a complete guessing game. In addition to that, flashing a borg means that you are also given time to run away if you feel that you cannot kill the borg in that specific engagement.

Until it is impossible or much harder to remotely destroy borgs via the robotics control console, I still don't understand why this change is needed. Case in point, a wizard had summoned a laughter demon who was causing trouble. The immediate response was to send janiborgs to clean up the blood. The wizard then proceeded to blow every borg and alerted their demon to this over comms. Demon was then able to go hog wild. The moment you are blown, you are helpless as an MMI and are at the mercy of players being kind enough to help you. If you are emagged or otherwise hacked, you are immediately taken out of the round permanently because your MMI/posibrain is destroyed. Despite it arguably being more beneficial to lock down and dismantle emagged borgs and then asking them who emagged them, many people will opt to detonate 'em first.

[zxaber]

Losing the robo console's ability to blow borgs and having the ions apply slow over stun would be a good start to balancing out the damage slowdown. A Malf should retain the ability to blow a borg, since this is often their only option to prevent an MMI that knows the AI's status from falling into crew hands (and there are several other key features tied to the robo console), but I won't shed a tear if the crew loses the ability to blow borgs up.

I'm still not really sure what matchup the borgs have where they come out decidedly favorable without having a heavy numbers advantage. I typed out a whole long post, but the TL;DR is that there are so many options that currently exist to stop borgs from impacting revs/a traitor/security/whatever that it seems odd to me this really needs to be pushed forward. It is really that hard to build a new robo console from any of the three circuit imprinters (or the spare board in tool storage)? Is it really that hard to win a melee fight against a borg where you can stun-lock it with one hit using an item easily available from abandoned robotics?