Hivemind is completely unfair with no redeeming qualities

[confused rock]

Here's an average round of hivemind for whoever ascends to one mind for you:
-go around standing next to people for 30 minutes. best part is in bar, when you're just clicking the action button
-gain powerful spells such as "make people dizzy" and "forcewall" none of which solve the problem of hivemind dying if a security officer tases them once.
-eventually start using your "anal probe" power on people standing still for a long time, since they're the only ones it's reasonable to use on. chances are, that person's also a hivemind, since they're standing still so long.
-medullary failure the hivemind and instagib them. you can do this in public since it's so rapid and confusing.
-notice the pinpointer on the top right. you're not sure why it's active, but you figure out who it is-not by running up close to the person, but by staying a screen a way and lining the horizontal pinpointer up at long range.
-cockshock them since medularry's on cooldown, stab them to crit, instagib.
-use your "get four minions" ability and order them to contact you on pda and obey you (what other orders would you put in there?)
-get one or two of your minions to contact you. the other 3 will be completely silent the whole round
-avoid using implant breaker since if all you do is attack other hiveminds and convert people sec will have 0 reason to suspect hiveminds exist
-get one mind
-turn implant breaker on and keep it on. you can now tase a sec officer and stand next to them for 2 seconds to convert them to viva.
-be very lucky no other hivemind cockshocked or medullaried you, since you'd have no way to avoid it besides carrying a box of implants on you at all times
-after a career of killing people with unfair stuns and heart attacks, retire to being slowly killed by your own minion who you converted mid-combat.
"instant heart attack which works on anyone you see with no downsides but it only works once every 5 minutes" doesn't seem balanced to me. nor does instant KO shocks or fuck it any of that shit. It's completely boring to play and completely frustrating to have used on you. It's an extremely polished pile of poop, and while yes it's shiny, they polished the bottom of the poop not the top so you can't even SEE the sheen. I don't think the amount of love and care can protect it from being complete garbage.

[Yakumo_Chen]

They get a ranged stun that you can't detect? Doesn't that just make them worse shadowlings?

My experience with hivemijds is that I convert people until one of them desires to murderbone and then the implant gestapo comes down and implants everyone until winning is impossible.

[confused rock]

shock thing is stand still for a few seconds and you can ko anyone you converted anywhere. if you're in a room with someone stand still for 2 seconds and bam they're out
bruteforce makes it extremely easy so implants do nothing

also security is PUNISHED for fighting hiveminds, in theory hiveminds have little reason to go batshit until they're a onemind and then they're a real threat to the station.

[Kel]

this mode has no coherent direction, tons of random ass jank mechanics, practically no round impact until its over, dumb shit abilities that promote "paranoia" (aka be immune to the roundtype by never afking), and worst of all, is boring as fuck to play against or as.

[terranaut]

hivemind is garbage remove it i dont even like playing it as antag

[oranges]

thog say this policy question first as gamemodes are config

[Rustledjimm]

This is not whether the game mode is on or out of the game.

it's about the quality and style of the game mode which is certainly a coding, not a policy suggestion.

Now if the thread was "remove hivemind from the config" then yes, it would be a config thread and thus should be in policy. But it is not.

While the poll does say remove/keep, I think it has some merit on whether it can be fixed first.

[oranges]

thog think you fail to read thread at all in haste to post

thog say thread clearly ask for gamemode removal

thog also disagree that gamemode is viable

[iamgoofball]

I don't think we should keep this. I wasn't aware hive mind was a conversion mode, amd conversion modes fucking suck because everyone makes the fatal flaw of conversion being forced.

The implant metagame layer sucks.

[Rustledjimm]

If the Head Coder believes this game mode is not able to be fixed and thus has no interest in even trying to fix it then by default it's no longer a coding issue and a config issue.

If coderbus isn't interested in it or trying to fix it, especially the head coder, then it should most likely be up for removal. As we've done with other modes in the past.

[iamgoofball]

If the Head Coder believes this game mode is not able to be fixed and thus has no interest in even trying to fix it then by default it's no longer a coding issue and a config issue.

If coderbus isn't interested in it or trying to fix it, especially the head coder, then it should most likely be up for removal. As we've done with other modes in the past.

That's not what Thog said at all. Thog is a man of simple words. You read too deeply into them.

[Cobby]

thog not put picture of bell curve with different gamemodes in thread?

[zxaber]

Goof, the antag is not a conversion for the most part. It becomes conversion if one hivemind manages to get the victory royal against the others. The fact that it's not a conversion is a big part about why it's terrible if you ask me. Kenny tried so hard to make it a non-conversion antag that it just became terribly for the non-hiveminds involved. Mindcontrol before the nerf was used for just walking people out the airlock or attacking the captain and getting the vessel executed. (Truthfully, leaving a vessel alive after a mind control is counter to the hivemind's goals, since the vessel would almost certainly shout about hiveminds and the implant swarm would begin)

Kenny is trying hard to make the antag fun, but I don't know what can be done about it. Hivemind has a bunch of abilities that feel bullshit to be hit by, but is otherwise so underpowered that they have to hide away all round. Indeed, it often feels like extended until the one-mind event happens, or you're mind-controlled to kill your coworker and then left to deal with the mess as soon as security arrives.

[imsxz]

its not a conversion mode until the very end if a hivemind manages to win. the core is hiveminds hunting each other down while security/the crew tries to hunt the hiveminds. I think the mode as an idea and code is cool and neat, but (no offense to the /tg/ community) won't ever fit in at least in its current state. Hiveminds are simple to beat if you fight it with a friend and take some coffee. /tg/ has unironically shown their inability to cope with modes/threats that can't be dealt with on their own and force teamwork. I don't mean that as an insult, I'm that type of player myself, it's the honest state of affairs.

[datorangebottle]

I agree with everyone who says this gamemode is crap, especially this post in particular. Anything short of a complete rework or deletion from the code is not enough.

this mode has no coherent direction, tons of random ass jank mechanics, practically no round impact until its over, dumb shit abilities that promote "paranoia" (aka be immune to the roundtype by never afking), and worst of all, is boring as fuck to play against or as.

It seems like it wants to be a stealth antag(like Ling), but the primary counter makes it want to be a murderbone antag(like Wizard/Nightmare) without the power to back it up, but the One Mind spell makes it want to be cult/rev. What the fuck. Pick one, maybe two. I could see ling into cult, or ling into wizard, but... seriously?

Also, people already converted by a hivemind should be immune to being stolen. A ling can't steal another ling's genes without killing and absorbing them, so why can I havemind just yeet other hiveminds' converts? This would also make it easier to locate other hiveminds, because you could give them a notification that 'a distant force rejects your mind. This one belongs to another.' or some shit.

Hiveminds that try to be stealthy are fucked by any other hivemind trying to murderbone because one mindshield implant counters that person for every hivemind who can't break implants yet. This has happened to me every single round that I've played hivemind because I work slower than most other people who play the role, and before you say 'wah fucking turn it off then', I have it disabled but keep getting it rolled randomly by the game because there aren't enough people in x department who have Hivemind turned on.

One of my suggestions was to turn it into a midround antag, which would alleviate some of the problems in my opinion. It gets rid of the chance of other 'minds fucking you over, though it introduces the new problem of 'oh its cult/rev so either i screw them over or they screw me over'.

[zxaber]

Hivemind is seemingly built around abilities that kill (or allow for killing) with no possible reaction from the victim. It feels bad when you're just some random crew member and suddenly die. It would feel terrible if that happened while you're a traitor.

I think keeping it confined to its own gamemode is for the better.

[PKPenguin321]

thog say this policy question first as gamemodes are config

Moved to policy discussion

If you'd like to post on code feedback regarding the mode, post about potential mode improvements there. Modes are removed by the config first, unless the mode is gang and I'm a headmin.

[ATHATH]

Make hivemind hosts immune to the powers of other hivemind hosts (except for the ones that are specifically supposed to only work on hivemind hosts) so that they can't just instakill/instabeat each other as soon as they come into conflict (without using mundane weapons, mind-controlled people, etc.).

What if we made hivemind hosts disembodied thought patterns instead of physical creatures? In other words, what if hiveminds were like competitive sentient diseases? Assimilation (which they would be able to do from any of their vessels) would be their equivalent of the manual sneeze and manual cough powers (but unlike sentient diseases, hiveminds wouldn't "spread" naturally), and mindshields would be their equivalent of a vaccine. They'd be able to send telepathic messages to their vessels, and perhaps be able to bribe them by offering combat boons and such (or threaten them with debuffs) if they go and kill the vessels of other hivemind hosts. Vessels infected by one hivemind would be unable to be infected by other hiveminds (hiveminds would get a HUD that'd tell them who is in their hivemind by default, and at 5-10 vessels (to prevent early game rushes) they'd get a HUD that'd tell them who's already in another hivemind (and which hivemind that person belongs to could perhaps be represented by a color in the HUD), so once almost everyone without a mindshield is infected, the hiveminds would likely have to go loud and attempt to kill each other's hosts in order to win. Once sec and/or realizes that this is happening, they could then begin implanting people in order to fight back against (and not be used as a mind-controlled pawn in) the hivemind wars.

That was a bit of a wall of text, so let's try this bullet point format instead for my hivemind rework pitch:

[*]Hiveminds would be like sentient diseases and would not have hosts, only vessels.
[*]Assimilation would be like their equivalent of the manual cough and/or manual sneeze symptoms, and might not require the "standing still" thing.
[*]HIveminds would not be able to spread passively like sentient diseases can (with the right symptoms), though.
[*]Hiveminds can't assimilate each other's vessels, but can see who is in their hive with a special HUD that they'd get and see who has already been assimilated by another hivemind (and which hivemind assimilated them) with a HUD gained at 5 or so vessels.
[*]Hiveminds would be unable to break mindshields (or doing so would require using an ability with a massive (5 minutes between assimilations?) cooldown), and implanted vessels would be removed from hives that they're in. This ability would be unable to steal vessels from other hiveminds.
[*]Death would not "cure" assimilation (does it already not do that with current hiveminds? I dunno).
[*]Hiveminds would have access to both means to force their vessels to help them (such as mind control and chaos induction) and ways to encourage vessels to willingly help them (debuffs and buffs that they could bestow or take away from their vessels, telepathic messages that they can send to their vessels).
[*]Mind controlled vessels would lose access to any buffs and debuffs that they had on them (to encourage hiveminds to get their vessels to help them willingly). Chaos induction would be temporary, but would be able to be targeted on specific vessels (the duration would depend on how many vessels you were trying to induct at once and how big your hive is, and you could cut it short early if needed). Chaos induction would block your use of telepathy on your chaos inducted vessels (and potentially also your use of mind control on your other vessels) while active, to help dissuade hiveminds from just making their chaos induction commands be "Obey any telepathic commands that you receive." or the like.
[*]Once the hiveminds had claimed most of the unimplanted people on the station as vessels, they'd use them as pawns to try to kill off the vessels of other hiveminds and become the last remaining hivemind.
[*]Sec and/or cargo would presumably notice this and start mass-implanting people so that they can't be used as fodder in the hivemind war (or to attack sec to stop them from distributing implants).
[*]I don't know what the hivemind win-condition would be. Maybe make the round immediately end when there's only one hivemind remaining (or when one hivemind has over 10x the number of non-SSD vessels than all of the other hiveminds have combined, to deter camping with one vessel in Maintenance to extend the round)? I feel like an objective of needing to be the only hivemind with vessels on the shuttle could be problematic, seeing as how sec would likely lynch and/or implant any unimplanted people on the shuttle (maybe add a power that lets one of your vessels "fake" having a mindshield implant?) and that objective might encourage the hiveminds to lay low until the shuttle ride and/or work with sec, which would be boring. Someone else can probably think up some good objectives (even if they're (mostly) the same for all hiveminds every round, sort of like revs).
[*]I don't know if hiveminds should have a hivemind chat that they can use to talk to each other without talking through vessels. I kind of like the idea of having a "council of avatars", but I also would like to give experienced hiveminds to tell a new hivemind (how) to not reveal the roundtype 5 minutes in.
[*]Hiveminds would be able to use their telepathy to address their vessels (and ONLY their vessels) both individually (like a revenant's telepathic message ability) and all at once (like the one mind chat channel, except without cooldowns for speaking and only you and vessels designated by you could use, hear, and send messages over the channel). The speech of the vessel that a hivemind is currently observing would be in glowing text from that hivemind's perspective, to aid in noticing when your vessel is speaking to you. Chaos-inducted vessels would be able to hear and use neither of these methods of communication.
[*]Powers that hurt your vessels (used for punishing them for doing things that you don't want them to, like waiting in the implant line at sec) would NOT be instant kills (or even 10-15 second kills) or instant knockouts (a power that makes a vessel drowsy could work, though). A heart attack power would likely be too potent to be kept in the game, but maybe the counterplay currently available to vessels (and the people around them) to restart the heart would balance it enough to keep it in.

Your thoughts on the disembodied hivemind idea?

[datorangebottle]

I like it more than what we have now, but I still hate mindshield implants with a passion.

[zxaber]

Thoughts on the disembodied idea:

• Any ability that lets your vessel know that they are assimilated will lead to them calling you out over comms and also de-assimilating if possible. This is an existing issue with Mind Control; if a hivemind must Mind Control a vessel, it is in their best interest to drive the vessel out an airlock or commit suicide by cop. They'll likely lose the vessel either way, once mind control was activated, but at least killing it yourself keeps the secret. The fix put forth on this issue simply limited the distance (and time) you get before the mind control breaks, but the underlying problem still remains. Abilities that let your vessel know they're assimilated just do not mesh with hivemind goals.
• Hivemind was designed to be "not another conversion mode" from the start. If vessels are allowed to be sweet-talked into doing the hivemind's bidding with buffs and debuffs, either they become antags (and we just accept that it's another conversion mode), or they break the self-antagging rule.

[ATHATH]

Thoughts on the disembodied idea:

• Any ability that lets your vessel know that they are assimilated will lead to them calling you out over comms and also de-assimilating if possible. This is an existing issue with Mind Control; if a hivemind must Mind Control a vessel, it is in their best interest to drive the vessel out an airlock or commit suicide by cop. They'll likely lose the vessel either way, once mind control was activated, but at least killing it yourself keeps the secret. The fix put forth on this issue simply limited the distance (and time) you get before the mind control breaks, but the underlying problem still remains. Abilities that let your vessel know they're assimilated just do not mesh with hivemind goals.
• Hivemind was designed to be "not another conversion mode" from the start. If vessels are allowed to be sweet-talked into doing the hivemind's bidding with buffs and debuffs, either they become antags (and we just accept that it's another conversion mode), or they break the self-antagging rule.

Maybe there could be a hivemind power that makes your vessels count as antags, but doesn't bind them to your will?

[datorangebottle]

That would just lead to murderboning. Lots of murderboning.

What I'd like is for Chaos Induction(which should explicitly remain as a power if there's a rework, since it's really cool) to be repeatable, single-target, and explicitly say in big red text 'You are becoming a member of the hivemind. You are not allowed to reveal this unless the Hivemind tells you to. The Hivemind has given you the following objective, and you must accomplish it at all costs:'

That's my opinion, at least. It'd encourage people to be less explicit and direct with their objectives. We'd see more, "Interfere with security at all costs" as opposed to "Obey x's every order and risk everything to defend x if necessary. Do not tell anyone about this objective or that X is a hivemind."

Edit: I'm aware that the conversation is about hivemind being designed to NOT be a conversion objective, and I'm here to tell you that's a shit design philosophy. It's HIVEMIND. When you say 'HIVEMIND' people expect many beings sharing one mind. Hence, it would make sense that a HIVEMIND gamemode would be about incorporating people into your HIVEMIND so that you can expand its mental capacity and grow the HIVEMIND's power.

[confused rock]

What if, instead of completely reworking a shitty gamemode, we just removed it? I don't see you considering reworks to monkey, meteor, or gang, which are all far more solid modes.

[actioninja]

I don't see you considering reworks to monkey, meteor, or gang, which are all far more solid modes.

lol

[PKPenguin321]

I don't see you considering reworks to monkey, meteor, or gang, which are all far more solid modes.

lol

he's right though, even monkey is more fun

[Screemonster]

make implanting a vessel that hasn't had any powers used on them yet kill them

[lmwevil]

make implanting a vessel that hasn't had any powers used on them yet kill them

[Mickyan]

You ever wonder why coders aren't always receptive to feedback and then you read something like "guys what if all this code that someone spent a lot of time and effort making and maintaining.. what if instead of trying to make it better we just threw it into the fucking garbage?"

[cedarbridge]

You ever wonder why coders aren't always receptive to feedback and then you read something like "guys what if all this code that someone spent a lot of time and effort making and maintaining.. what if instead of trying to make it better we just threw it into the fucking garbage?"

If its something you worked really hard on for a long time but not something that anyone wants, why are they obligated to just put up with the thing they don't want merely because you expended a ton of effort into making it? They're not really meant to validate your personal attachment to your project. That complaint is like some sort of mutant version of the sunk cost fallacy but it comes up every time there's a request to remove or revert something.

Maybe somebody can point me to the non-github thread where this idea was pitched and there was a general sentiment that it was something that players wanted. If not then why would you act surprised when players say the opposite?

[Mickyan]

Missing the point

The current gamemodes have gotten not awful (debatable) from years of iterations, anything can change so long as there's someone willing to make it better

To call for the removal of something that's being actively maintained and changed without even trying to be constructive is extremely lazy and disrespectful

[cedarbridge]

Missing the point

The current gamemodes have gotten not awful (debatable) from years of iterations, anything can change so long as there's someone willing to make it better

To call for the removal of something that's being actively maintained and changed without even trying to be constructive is extremely lazy and disrespectful

You're confusing players who actually have to interact with the product in its current and uninteresting/unfun state and coders/maintainers who are interested in itteration on the project. If the players don't want then expecting them to care about revisions or iterations of a thing they don't want is entirely missing the point.

10 - Coder has idea
15 - Coder makes thing
20 - Thing gets merged
25 - Players interact with thing and loudly state that they don't want thing
30 - "But it took a lot of time and work to make thing! We can make changes!"
GOTO 15 until the loop finally breaks and it gets removed.

That you view calls for removal of a gamemode "disrespectful" betrays more that you're viewing projects as sacred cows rather than proposed additions to the game played by people.

[confused rock]

I don't feel like there's any merit to being constructive about something with no redeeming qualities. when hivemind is nothing but bad to the point where a new gamemode from scratch would be better, and there hasn't been sign of it improving for months, there's no reason to keep the waste around. Anything can change, but that doesn't mean everything SHOULD change, when it can, like, stop existing instead.

[Screemonster]

just because someone spent three hours to make a cake doesn't mean people are obligated to eat it if it comes out shitty and burnt

[knacker48]

Look at all the time clock cult got put into it and it still didn't survive. I think that's as clear a sign as any that not everything that has time put into it will work.

Hell I'd much rather play a round of the old clock cult than I would hivemind because at-least then I'm doing something fun.

[cedarbridge]

Look at all the time clock cult got put into it and it still didn't survive. I think that's as clear a sign as any that not everything that has time put into it will work.

Its called the "Sunk Cost Fallacy" for a reason

[Yakumo_Chen]

Pretty much all of my hivemind rounds have ended the same as my initial post. Hunting down enemy hiveminds is obnoxiously hard and usually very public. Usually it's a complete guess as to who's a hivemind unless you see the same guy patrolling the halls all round like you are.

It becomes increasingly obvious when you are a hivemind because the only way to get powers is to not do your job, which becomes really obvious if you're playing an important role or a typical "shouldn't be out of their space" role like viro or a head of staff.

The main counter the crew has to hiveminds is to just murder them and hide the body so that other hosts can't absorb them to make onemind easier.

You pretty much have to kill all the hiveminds (there's often like 4 or more) or be the last one standing AND have twenty hosts (impossible if security gestapo is dispatched) to onemind. I still have yet to do it because killing other hiveminds is a pain in the ass.

Your sleep ability makes you ridiculously OP against lone security hunting you down, which happens very often if you are hiding in maint. They are fucked and can't yell for help if you nab them.

If hivemind is called out the entire station will hunt you down and valid you even if you were essentially doing nothing the entire round, which is pretty obnoxious for a lone antag mode and the station will all but assume you are going to murderbone no matter how friendly you are.

The station is absolutely encouraged to get implanted and not resist security unless they happen to get the hive objectives, and usually they don't manage to accomplish anything of note to disrupt security.

Completing any objectives if security has found out the round type is all but impossible unless you get the lucky "get more hosts than anyone else" objective and survive the round. Even if you manage to destroy security the entire station is still obligated to self-implant and validhunt you anyway.

You are forced to murderbone any and all people out to valid you, almost all of the time, which is opposite of your objectives or you set up some kind of "strip and wall off" room in maint which is presumably more dickish and unfun for the victims than dying.

[NecromancerAnne]

For much the same reasons as Yakuml pointed out I've only been using my few hivemind rounds to quickly valid the other hiveminds and make it as unobvious as possible what the round type is. Going ham-fisted loony trying to kill specific people for no reason makes you look like either a traitor or a tider, and the longer you obfuscate the round type the better it is.

Otherwise hivemind sucks ass and you might as well just use your antag status to do anything but the objective so you can avoid being found out. If you happen to get some hiveminds absorbed and take their hosts then all the better.

[imsxz]

most hivemind rounds these days tend to be more exciting than traitor, while still being distinct from other more action packed round types by generally lasting over 40 minutes whereas cult/rev/nukies are all over by 30.

[confused rock]

Ok meteor with forced recall until the 2 hour mark is long and “exciting” that doesnt mean thay random heart attacks are balanced

[Dr_bee]

Ok meteor with forced recall until the 2 hour mark is long and “exciting” that doesnt mean thay random heart attacks are balanced

The random heart attacks has the same problem parasting had in that it is the most unfun way to lose ever.

Stealthy murder should generally be done via things like poison or cryosting, as it usually gives the person a chance to shout that they are dying and try in vain to save themselves.

Even if it is hard to save yourself it feels better to at least get a chance to try, the perma-stun from heart failure prevents that.

[WarbossLincoln]

Or some thought, planning, or something clever. Planting a door bomb on your target's office and hiding nearby so you can space the body is better than click->heartattack.

[confused rock]

We removed airlock charges because they were lame as shit to be killed by, warboss. Why did you describe the worst possible example?


oh wait, because that example is still far more fair than mikepence or medullary failure and we removed that. we definitely should remove this.

[imsxz]

Ok meteor with forced recall until the 2 hour mark is long and “exciting” that doesnt mean thay random heart attacks are balanced

meteor is not exciting, most workpalces get destroyed outright and you already know what's coming, there's no excitement from sit in the middle of the station simulator.

I was saying hivemind tends to have more action than traitors these days while still giving extendedcucks a chance to do their shenanigans, I've always felt it was a neat mix between people minding their own business and validhunters staying busy.

IMO none of the hivemind abilities should work on each other but still give some plausible deniability to the user so they can't all be used to test if someone else is a host.

[Yakumo_Chen]

I still think hivemind would be a lot better if mindshields weren't a hard antag tell. People get the pinpointers now if they want to valudhunt. Just make mindshields block all abilities but give hives an ability to remove their own at will. That way they won't stick out if they lose theirs either, since it's plausible enough a hive just brute forced it.

Force valid hunting gay babies to do actual detective work instead of playing odd one out. Leave implant gestapo valid shittery to mister rev's wild ride and "AI CALL SHUTTLE ITS CULT"

[confused rock]

well I don't think hivemind is exciting.

[Eskjjlj]

Last time I rolled hivemind I couldn't do anything the moment the other hiveminds revealed the gamemode. Suddenly every crewmember turned into a validhunter and I had to kill them with the help of an awakened vessel in order to survive.
We killed the whole sec team as they were mass implanting everyone and then all the implanted crewmember were patrolling the station with shotguns to find non-implanted crew so we had to kill them too... which defeats the purpose of hivemind gamemode as you have to keep people alive to win.
It's really stupid that you have to murderbone everyone as hivemind to survive.

So the implant meta needs to be changed to stop making sec round up the non-implanted in the same way as during a rev round.

[Yakumo_Chen]

Lexia black would find any mode that is fueled by shitcurity and bullshit fun to be fair

[Qbmax32]

Lexia black would find any mode that is fueled by shitcurity and bullshit fun to be fair

Redpilled take

[cedarbridge]

This post was deleted by cedarbridge on Sat May 04, 2019 3:03 pm.

[imsxz]

Lexia black would find any mode that is fueled by shitcurity and bullshit fun to be fair

counterpoint: marisa kirisame would find any mode that relies on talking to another human being and coopearting with them bullshit and unfair