Baton Rework
- wesoda25
- Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:32 pm
- Byond Username: Wesoda25
Baton Rework
I didn't see a thread so heres one.
Anyways, I really like how new batons leave a window of opportunity to react, its much better than what they formerly were. I similarly like how it'll be a knockdown now (more on this later). I DON'T like pump up and how it encourages powergaming, but I've made that argument clear in the PRs and feel no need to elaborate here.
I just basically wanna ask, would it be ideal to have the knockdown applied instantly, or after a short delay?
Anyways, I really like how new batons leave a window of opportunity to react, its much better than what they formerly were. I similarly like how it'll be a knockdown now (more on this later). I DON'T like pump up and how it encourages powergaming, but I've made that argument clear in the PRs and feel no need to elaborate here.
I just basically wanna ask, would it be ideal to have the knockdown applied instantly, or after a short delay?
-
- Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:14 pm
- Byond Username: SkeletalElite
- Github Username: SkeletalElite
Re: Baton Rework
Only thing I think would be better is if instead of a delayed stun it applies a status effect that did 10 stamina damage a second for 10 seconds and then up the stamina damage of the baton itself to 90. The status effect goes away twice as quickly when already in stamina crit.
1) Encourage use of multiple tools together getting 1 disabler shot in means that theyll go down instantly with a baton.
2) Fall down 3 seconds later otherwise.
3) The status effect of the baton can be used to extend how long someone in stam crit will be down more effectively as the status effect dealing stamina damage will pause your regen delay. Remeber that it goes away twice as quickly while you are in stam crit already so batoning someone in stam crit would put them down for 15 seconds and not 20.
4) The same status effect could be used to reintroduce tasers later on. The taser would do no stamina damage itself but would apply this status effect. Maybe the tasers would be shorter or do less damage than the baton's effect though.
Edit: To make pump up less power gamey as well you could just make pump up reduce either the time or damage from this status effect specifically. Rather than effecting the stun itself
1) Encourage use of multiple tools together getting 1 disabler shot in means that theyll go down instantly with a baton.
2) Fall down 3 seconds later otherwise.
3) The status effect of the baton can be used to extend how long someone in stam crit will be down more effectively as the status effect dealing stamina damage will pause your regen delay. Remeber that it goes away twice as quickly while you are in stam crit already so batoning someone in stam crit would put them down for 15 seconds and not 20.
4) The same status effect could be used to reintroduce tasers later on. The taser would do no stamina damage itself but would apply this status effect. Maybe the tasers would be shorter or do less damage than the baton's effect though.
Edit: To make pump up less power gamey as well you could just make pump up reduce either the time or damage from this status effect specifically. Rather than effecting the stun itself
- Akrilla
- Joined: Thu May 16, 2019 9:24 am
- Byond Username: Akrilla
- Github Username: Akrilla
Re: Baton Rework
I'll always defend that with the complete accessibility of pump-up (which is the entire point) it inherently makes the powergaming argument not really a thing.
Otherwise, I think the delay is needed because if it's instant they just lay on the floor, regrabbing their weapon near instantly and laying there like a crab with anyone coming close getting attacked. The numbers atm, with pump-up, lets the person *just* get up before the baton comes off cooldown, with 0.5s to counter (while having a slowdown, and confusion effect).
Otherwise, I think the delay is needed because if it's instant they just lay on the floor, regrabbing their weapon near instantly and laying there like a crab with anyone coming close getting attacked. The numbers atm, with pump-up, lets the person *just* get up before the baton comes off cooldown, with 0.5s to counter (while having a slowdown, and confusion effect).
- CPTANT
- Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 1:31 pm
- Byond Username: CPTANT
Re: Baton Rework
I don't mind a rework of the baton at all, but I do think security should be compensated in some way because it is a nerf to one of their primary weapons.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
- Mickyan
- Github User
- Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:59 pm
- Byond Username: Mickyan
- Github Username: Mickyan
Re: Baton Rework
This kind of rock-paper-scissor approach to balance is a dead end, we're seeing it with flashes now where their increased protection availability means they're only effective against those that do not keep a checklist of items to get at roundstart
In other words the powergaming argument is alive and well because all you've done is adding pump-up to the checklist of items every powergamer will preemptively get a hold of and everyone else has to live with the consequences of not playing like a space hobo and/or assistant
In other words the powergaming argument is alive and well because all you've done is adding pump-up to the checklist of items every powergamer will preemptively get a hold of and everyone else has to live with the consequences of not playing like a space hobo and/or assistant
-
- Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:18 am
- Byond Username: The unloved rock
Re: Baton Rework
Theorem: remove stuns and make batons cause actual electrocution and break bones
Also mickyan is correct
Also mickyan is correct
- Denton
- Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2017 3:53 pm
- Byond Username: Denton-30
- Github Username: 81Denton
Re: Baton Rework
I'm not a fan of pump up since it's yet another one-trick chem that only powergamers will use. We have plenty of other stun/stamina chems like meth or bath salts to begin with.
- John_Gobbel
- Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:55 pm
- Byond Username: CAPTTLasky
Re: Baton Rework
I like how the stun baton works now.
Only consideration I have with the pump up is it needs to be very scarce/hard to produce or not be as effective.
Only consideration I have with the pump up is it needs to be very scarce/hard to produce or not be as effective.
- oranges
- Code Maintainer
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
- Byond Username: Optimumtact
- Github Username: optimumtact
- Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED
Re: Baton Rework
nobody wants to touch existing chems because of the shouting and screaming, so most people make new ones instead.Denton wrote:I'm not a fan of pump up since it's yet another one-trick chem that only powergamers will use. We have plenty of other stun/stamina chems like meth or bath salts to begin with.
- wesoda25
- Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:32 pm
- Byond Username: Wesoda25
Re: Baton Rework
Now that this has played out a bit, I still think pump up is a bad idea and should be removed (the knockdown opens up for a counter in and of itself, why tf do we need to coddle players and REWARD validhunters at the same time???). Delayed knockdown is wack too, and borg stun arms still aren't included.
- NecromancerAnne
- In-Game Admin
- Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:55 pm
- Byond Username: NecromancerAnne
- Location: Don't touch me, motherfucker...
Re: Baton Rework
As much as it it's a hotbed to really talk about, maybe it's time to look toward bringing the martial arts into line and how they might be better implemented, as well cults...literal stun hands.
- Akrilla
- Joined: Thu May 16, 2019 9:24 am
- Byond Username: Akrilla
- Github Username: Akrilla
Re: Baton Rework
Unironically give everyone some type of nerfed martial art to make combat more interesting
-
- Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:46 pm
- Byond Username: Recurracy
Re: Baton Rework
The telescopic baton has been nerfed too hard, I feel. It took 3 whacks to down someone. I find that a little over the top, as a self-defence weapon.
- Timonk
- Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:27 pm
- Byond Username: Timonk
- Location: ur mum
Re: Baton Rework
Massive cult buff. I've seen it too many times, officers stunning culties and them casually pulling out their stun hand and just fucking 1 hit stun them.
joooks wrote:Quoting a legend, at least im not a faggot lolNaloac wrote:
In short, this appeal is denied. Suck my nuts retard.
See you in 12 months unless you blacklist me for this
Timberpoes wrote: ↑ I'm going to admin timonk [...]. Fuck it, he's also now my second host vote if goof rejects.
pikeyeskey13 wrote: ↑ ok don't forget to shove it up your ass lmao oops u can delete this one I just wanted to make sure it went through
Agux909 wrote:Woah bravo there sir, post of the month you saved the thread. I feel overwhelmed by the echo of unlimited wisdom and usefulness sprouting from you post. Every Manuel player now feels embarrased to exist because of your much NEEDED wise words, you sure teached'em all, you genius, IQ lord.Timonk wrote:This is why we make fun of Manuel
The hut has perished at my hands.
The pink arrow is always right.
- Timonk
- Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:27 pm
- Byond Username: Timonk
- Location: ur mum
Re: Baton Rework
Make the martial art random from person to personAkrilla wrote:Unironically give everyone some type of nerfed martial art to make combat more interesting
joooks wrote:Quoting a legend, at least im not a faggot lolNaloac wrote:
In short, this appeal is denied. Suck my nuts retard.
See you in 12 months unless you blacklist me for this
Timberpoes wrote: ↑ I'm going to admin timonk [...]. Fuck it, he's also now my second host vote if goof rejects.
pikeyeskey13 wrote: ↑ ok don't forget to shove it up your ass lmao oops u can delete this one I just wanted to make sure it went through
Agux909 wrote:Woah bravo there sir, post of the month you saved the thread. I feel overwhelmed by the echo of unlimited wisdom and usefulness sprouting from you post. Every Manuel player now feels embarrased to exist because of your much NEEDED wise words, you sure teached'em all, you genius, IQ lord.Timonk wrote:This is why we make fun of Manuel
The hut has perished at my hands.
The pink arrow is always right.
- Sandshark808
- Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:56 pm
- Byond Username: Sandshark808
Re: Baton Rework
Cult just needs a gigantic nerf. It's the single most powerful antag role you can get and there's no counterplay to most of their abilities (except shooting first an getting bwoinked if you're wrong).Timonk wrote:Massive cult buff. I've seen it too many times, officers stunning culties and them casually pulling out their stun hand and just fucking 1 hit stun them.
- Timonk
- Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:27 pm
- Byond Username: Timonk
- Location: ur mum
Re: Baton Rework
holy melons, null rods, holy explosions, explosions in general etc.no counter
joooks wrote:Quoting a legend, at least im not a faggot lolNaloac wrote:
In short, this appeal is denied. Suck my nuts retard.
See you in 12 months unless you blacklist me for this
Timberpoes wrote: ↑ I'm going to admin timonk [...]. Fuck it, he's also now my second host vote if goof rejects.
pikeyeskey13 wrote: ↑ ok don't forget to shove it up your ass lmao oops u can delete this one I just wanted to make sure it went through
Agux909 wrote:Woah bravo there sir, post of the month you saved the thread. I feel overwhelmed by the echo of unlimited wisdom and usefulness sprouting from you post. Every Manuel player now feels embarrased to exist because of your much NEEDED wise words, you sure teached'em all, you genius, IQ lord.Timonk wrote:This is why we make fun of Manuel
The hut has perished at my hands.
The pink arrow is always right.
- Shadowflame909
- Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:18 pm
- Byond Username: Shadowflame909
- Location: Think about something witty and pretend I put it here
Re: Baton Rework
bro ling just keeps getting buffed and the crew keeps getting nerfedSandshark808 wrote:Cult just needs a gigantic nerf. It's the single most powerful antag role you can get and there's no counterplay to most of their abilities (except shooting first an getting bwoinked if you're wrong).Timonk wrote:Massive cult buff. I've seen it too many times, officers stunning culties and them casually pulling out their stun hand and just fucking 1 hit stun them.
lings are like a wizard but they come in 4 and with 8 traitors as well
Potentially 7 traitors and someone roundstart ends up with a combo of both.
Unless the ling just absorbs a tator tot not using their uplink. I've done it before
All in all. very very much the least of our antag fears.
Delayed Stuns also might be helpful to the nightmare.
► Show Spoiler
- Super Aggro Crag
- In Game PermaBanned
- Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:47 pm
- Byond Username: Super Aggro Crag
- Sandshark808
- Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:56 pm
- Byond Username: Sandshark808
Re: Baton Rework
If you detonate a big bomb or plasmaflood and do not subsequently kill all the cultists and win the round, you'll be jobbanned and possibly tempbanned from everything. It's literally against the rules.Timonk wrote:holy melons, null rods, holy explosions, explosions in general etc.no counter
- Shadowflame909
- Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:18 pm
- Byond Username: Shadowflame909
- Location: Think about something witty and pretend I put it here
Re: Baton Rework
Cultists got an armor nerf. I wish they were fully glass cannon. But now they're just security jumpsuit fully geared up cannon.
So shoot em with a shotgun
So shoot em with a shotgun
► Show Spoiler
- Sandshark808
- Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:56 pm
- Byond Username: Sandshark808
Re: Baton Rework
The real sucky part here is the instant stun that lasts for ages. It seems like 30+ seconds if nobody is around to help you up. That's way more than enough time for a guy with a dagger to disembowel you or sacrifice you on an altar.Shadowflame909 wrote:Cultists got an armor nerf. I wish they were fully glass cannon. But now they're just security jumpsuit fully geared up cannon.
So shoot em with a shotgun
- Shadowflame909
- Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:18 pm
- Byond Username: Shadowflame909
- Location: Think about something witty and pretend I put it here
Re: Baton Rework
that dagger is robust
and they still have an instant stun
Maybe we need to bring back a shadowling lite feature and give them the ability to hypnotize non-cultists and ease them into the idea of joining a cult
thats how it works in reality, me thinks.
and they still have an instant stun
Maybe we need to bring back a shadowling lite feature and give them the ability to hypnotize non-cultists and ease them into the idea of joining a cult
thats how it works in reality, me thinks.
► Show Spoiler
- Timonk
- Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:27 pm
- Byond Username: Timonk
- Location: ur mum
Re: Baton Rework
It's neigh impossible to kill every cultist in a summoning with 1 explosion, except when the master summons and none of the cultists run away
joooks wrote:Quoting a legend, at least im not a faggot lolNaloac wrote:
In short, this appeal is denied. Suck my nuts retard.
See you in 12 months unless you blacklist me for this
Timberpoes wrote: ↑ I'm going to admin timonk [...]. Fuck it, he's also now my second host vote if goof rejects.
pikeyeskey13 wrote: ↑ ok don't forget to shove it up your ass lmao oops u can delete this one I just wanted to make sure it went through
Agux909 wrote:Woah bravo there sir, post of the month you saved the thread. I feel overwhelmed by the echo of unlimited wisdom and usefulness sprouting from you post. Every Manuel player now feels embarrased to exist because of your much NEEDED wise words, you sure teached'em all, you genius, IQ lord.Timonk wrote:This is why we make fun of Manuel
The hut has perished at my hands.
The pink arrow is always right.
- NecromancerAnne
- In-Game Admin
- Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:55 pm
- Byond Username: NecromancerAnne
- Location: Don't touch me, motherfucker...
Re: Baton Rework
The irony of the antag freeze is that we're now kinda stuck in a situation where we can't have some fairly egregious examples of stuns until after the period is over. So we're in a weird state where cultists all have stuns and the crew don't, and so entering melee with a cultist to presumably bring them down nonlethally is obviously suicide, and being forced to buckshot cultists to death leave very few options for the crew to handle these antags. Not everyone is going to have a shotgun, even if improvised shotguns start getting handed out. This only exasperates their incredibly immense powerbase. The solution there would probably be as simple as having their stunhands apply a debuff that inflicts a lot of stamina damage over time and a knockdown or give them some kind of stamina baton (functionally, not literally a baton, more like touching people to weaken them like you would a baton but also like silencing them). It'd be the nerf cult has needed for a while honestly, though it may force cultists to just crit people more often. Who knows. Cult sucks anyway and this is all not even close to enough to fix the problem with cult.
As for lings, frankly, I think lings are a mess conceptually and them being stronger (???) since the baton rework is the least of the problems with lings. Any kind of balance done to lings is likely to be fix symptomatic problems and not the core issue with lings.
Lings are fucking shit execution wise as they're badly designed for what they're supposed to do (stealthy antag that kills and consume crew and take on their appearance to kill and consume more crew), and really good at things they're not REALLY supposed to do (being a near impervious murder machine with a nodrop esword and near infinite get out of jail free cards, so they can murderbone harder than a tot can with none of the associated risks). By the way, I don't believe the baton rework even remotely made lings stronger. If anything, the new batons were actually more powerful against lings than before. The new ling adrenals do however make them about par what they were before. Again, the core issue is not with the baton rework. It's that lings are not actually a well designed antag.
As for lings, frankly, I think lings are a mess conceptually and them being stronger (???) since the baton rework is the least of the problems with lings. Any kind of balance done to lings is likely to be fix symptomatic problems and not the core issue with lings.
Lings are fucking shit execution wise as they're badly designed for what they're supposed to do (stealthy antag that kills and consume crew and take on their appearance to kill and consume more crew), and really good at things they're not REALLY supposed to do (being a near impervious murder machine with a nodrop esword and near infinite get out of jail free cards, so they can murderbone harder than a tot can with none of the associated risks). By the way, I don't believe the baton rework even remotely made lings stronger. If anything, the new batons were actually more powerful against lings than before. The new ling adrenals do however make them about par what they were before. Again, the core issue is not with the baton rework. It's that lings are not actually a well designed antag.
- Cobby
- Code Maintainer
- Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
- Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
- Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone
Re: Baton Rework
i was never asked if removing stuns from cultists would be an acceptable bypass to the freeze (I would agree to stunpapers for sure)
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users