Kill and Clone
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Kill and Clone
Yes, I know a lot of people think it's a meme. But it's not, at least not completely. It's not only within the realm of realistic expectations currently, but some people actually do it. I've only ever seen it done to people in massive crit(150+ damage) or just a refusal to defib(technically already dead), but it is a thing. My question is; how should this be treated as it relates to policy?
For my opinion, I think it's mostly an IC issue, at least if the patient is in crit. If someone gets dragged into medbay in critical condition, a doctor has to make a series of choices based on a large number of circumstances. Circumstances can include: Patient injury type and levels, patient backlog, medicine availability, medicine quality, cryo availability, cloner upgrade status, medbay integrity, and a doctor's own morals. Euthanasia, assisted suicide, DNR orders, and the option to take someone off life support all exist IRL, so I think it's reasonable to expect similar cases in a horizontal spessmen simulator where death is generally treated as a major inconvenience, rather than a true end. If a CMO/Captain has an issue with your methods of treatment however, they are fully within their rights to demote you or maybe even brig you for it. (Not policy related, but perhaps we should add Malpractice as a space law violation?)
Although, I do think it should be warnable if a pattern emerges. Such as is currently done for other line-toeing behaviors. And the obvious scenario of toolboxing someone that came in without being in crit should obviously remain bannable, unless consent is given.
For my opinion, I think it's mostly an IC issue, at least if the patient is in crit. If someone gets dragged into medbay in critical condition, a doctor has to make a series of choices based on a large number of circumstances. Circumstances can include: Patient injury type and levels, patient backlog, medicine availability, medicine quality, cryo availability, cloner upgrade status, medbay integrity, and a doctor's own morals. Euthanasia, assisted suicide, DNR orders, and the option to take someone off life support all exist IRL, so I think it's reasonable to expect similar cases in a horizontal spessmen simulator where death is generally treated as a major inconvenience, rather than a true end. If a CMO/Captain has an issue with your methods of treatment however, they are fully within their rights to demote you or maybe even brig you for it. (Not policy related, but perhaps we should add Malpractice as a space law violation?)
Although, I do think it should be warnable if a pattern emerges. Such as is currently done for other line-toeing behaviors. And the obvious scenario of toolboxing someone that came in without being in crit should obviously remain bannable, unless consent is given.
Galatians 4:16 "Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?"
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Re: Kill and Clone
if a doctor doesnt know shit about his job i ll prefer being cloned while crit than having a medbay wild ride featuring 10 min of cryo if he is taking other docs patients that are actually trying to heal to throw them in the cloner then its valid to beat his ass dead and clone ⌥ banbait ban if he ahelps and job ban
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Re: Kill and Clone
Imagine saying this but unironically. Good lord dude.Tlaltecuhtli wrote:if a doctor doesnt know shit about his job i ll prefer being cloned while crit than having a medbay wild ride featuring 10 min of cryo if he is taking other docs patients that are actually trying to heal to throw them in the cloner then its valid to beat his ass dead and clone ⌥ banbait ban if he ahelps and job ban
As for actually killing and cloning people?
Don't. You can bring someone fairly easily out of hard crit with the surgeries and brute/burn kits or cryo my guy. Ain't that hard. Just don't be a fucking dumbass.
- Timonk
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Re: Kill and Clone
Killing and cloning is still faster with an fully upgraded cloner than cobbychems
joooks wrote:Quoting a legend, at least im not a faggot lolNaloac wrote:
In short, this appeal is denied. Suck my nuts retard.
See you in 12 months unless you blacklist me for this
Timberpoes wrote: ↑ I'm going to admin timonk [...]. Fuck it, he's also now my second host vote if goof rejects.
pikeyeskey13 wrote: ↑ ok don't forget to shove it up your ass lmao oops u can delete this one I just wanted to make sure it went through
Agux909 wrote:Woah bravo there sir, post of the month you saved the thread. I feel overwhelmed by the echo of unlimited wisdom and usefulness sprouting from you post. Every Manuel player now feels embarrased to exist because of your much NEEDED wise words, you sure teached'em all, you genius, IQ lord.Timonk wrote:This is why we make fun of Manuel
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Re: Kill and Clone
Wait is this against the rules specifically
I always kept it in the back of my mind as an option if someone's like hella fucked up (several limbs missing and medbay is already busy) as a sort of last ditch triage. If people are circsawing people to death because they have minor organ damage, that's stupid and not very doctorly I guess
I always kept it in the back of my mind as an option if someone's like hella fucked up (several limbs missing and medbay is already busy) as a sort of last ditch triage. If people are circsawing people to death because they have minor organ damage, that's stupid and not very doctorly I guess
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Re: Kill and Clone
So long as cloning exists I don't really see this as an issue.
If you trust someone to actually kill you instead of you just laying down and taking surgery then not much I can do lol.
Some people just need a reset, I don't think it's bad to do that.
Otherwise I think you're just not using the tools you have available to their fullest potential.
If you trust someone to actually kill you instead of you just laying down and taking surgery then not much I can do lol.
Some people just need a reset, I don't think it's bad to do that.
what kind of damage are you taking lol... Maybe rads? I can see that.Timonk wrote:Killing and cloning is still faster with an fully upgraded cloner than cobbychems
Otherwise I think you're just not using the tools you have available to their fullest potential.
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Re: Kill and Clone
Most advanced chems and even cryo is simply better than outright killing and cloning. Organ replacements are kind of a bitch to harvest early but monkeys are just the room over from the cloner if you need organs.
Hell honestly, why no resleeve into a monkey human? Take their body, copy their identity, put it on a monkey human, take out and swap the brains, defib. Boom. Back to life, good as new. Flawless and it takes almost no time at all.
Of course, humans only...
Hell honestly, why no resleeve into a monkey human? Take their body, copy their identity, put it on a monkey human, take out and swap the brains, defib. Boom. Back to life, good as new. Flawless and it takes almost no time at all.
Of course, humans only...
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Re: Kill and Clone
I've tried to not use cloning and it's quite possible to heal people up with TW on Stasis Bed > Defib > Heal faster than the default cloner will churn out bodies. T4 idk but the upgraded ones are probably not as fast as that either if you use upgraded surgeries.
The whole kill and clone meme is dumb in most cases, it's just a funny meme to spout. I'm saying that as a doctor player, not the person who coded it.
The whole kill and clone meme is dumb in most cases, it's just a funny meme to spout. I'm saying that as a doctor player, not the person who coded it.
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Re: Kill and Clone
The thing with Cryo and the cloner are that they're set and forget solutions. TW>defib is faster than an un-upgraded cloner, but that requires active effort to do. Not a viable solution when you've got multiple crits and stiffs on the shuffle.
Galatians 4:16 "Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?"
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- Cobby
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Re: Kill and Clone
even your kill and clone (tm) device has that issue though outside of maybe a BYOS, in which case you should build with TW>Defib in mind
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Re: Kill and Clone
This is more of a code than policy issue -- ideally the medical and cloning systems would be such that killing and cloning would be an unattractive last resort option, not the other way around.
- Screemonster
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Re: Kill and Clone
go full eclipse phase and have mental traumas that are built up and up each time you legitimately die and get crammed into a cheap sleeve, up to and including complete personality shift (having some random other ghost take over your body) or other !!FUN!! things that make death something you would really rather avoid even if you can be brought back
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Re: Kill and Clone
Why would I waste my time on an organ damaged mess with the chance of them dying on me more than once rather than just cloning them
joooks wrote:Quoting a legend, at least im not a faggot lolNaloac wrote:
In short, this appeal is denied. Suck my nuts retard.
See you in 12 months unless you blacklist me for this
Timberpoes wrote: ↑ I'm going to admin timonk [...]. Fuck it, he's also now my second host vote if goof rejects.
pikeyeskey13 wrote: ↑ ok don't forget to shove it up your ass lmao oops u can delete this one I just wanted to make sure it went through
Agux909 wrote:Woah bravo there sir, post of the month you saved the thread. I feel overwhelmed by the echo of unlimited wisdom and usefulness sprouting from you post. Every Manuel player now feels embarrased to exist because of your much NEEDED wise words, you sure teached'em all, you genius, IQ lord.Timonk wrote:This is why we make fun of Manuel
The hut has perished at my hands.
The pink arrow is always right.
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Re: Kill and Clone
This would make people very angryScreemonster wrote:go full eclipse phase and have mental traumas that are built up and up each time you legitimately die and get crammed into a cheap sleeve, up to and including complete personality shift (having some random other ghost take over your body) or other !!FUN!! things that make death something you would really rather avoid even if you can be brought back
- Screemonster
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Re: Kill and Clone
good4dplanner wrote:This would make people very angryScreemonster wrote:go full eclipse phase and have mental traumas that are built up and up each time you legitimately die and get crammed into a cheap sleeve, up to and including complete personality shift (having some random other ghost take over your body) or other !!FUN!! things that make death something you would really rather avoid even if you can be brought back
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Re: Kill and Clone
The cloner always giving you some sort of permanent defect would make the alternatives a lot more attractive.
It keeps the cloner in the game while providing an actual choice: Do I want the quick and easy route while potentially screwing someone up, or take the long way of revival surgery and patching up their broken bodies.
It keeps the cloner in the game while providing an actual choice: Do I want the quick and easy route while potentially screwing someone up, or take the long way of revival surgery and patching up their broken bodies.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Re: Kill and Clone
Better would be to just have the cloner print catatonic bodies that you can use to swap the brain of the dead guy into. This is more a discussion about code than it is about policy.
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Re: Kill and Clone
this is a serious issue - people seem to think that nerfing medbay out the ass improves things, it doesn'tYakumo_Chen wrote:time to nerf cloner more I guess
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Re: Kill and Clone
As long as the doc is acting in good faith (i.e. he's actually trying to get the patient back on his feet, not just killing and throwing him in the clone queue and forgetting about him) it should fall into "banning for incompetence" territory, which I think admins don't like to do.
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Re: Kill and Clone
If someone will die without your help, there is zero wrong with lettin em rot and cloning them. If they’re just standing there with an arm lopped off and you wordlessly kill em, you got an issue.
If they have jungle fever its fair game and if anyone says otherwise deadmin them immediately
If they have jungle fever its fair game and if anyone says otherwise deadmin them immediately
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Re: Kill and Clone
l-l-like empty cloning?Dr_bee wrote:Better would be to just have the cloner print catatonic bodies that you can use to swap the brain of the dead guy into. This is more a discussion about code than it is about policy.
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Re: Kill and Clone
Yep, but ONLY empty cloning. Possibly a way to just print the organs themselves using it as well.Cobby wrote:l-l-like empty cloning?Dr_bee wrote:Better would be to just have the cloner print catatonic bodies that you can use to swap the brain of the dead guy into. This is more a discussion about code than it is about policy.
Clones with ghosts in them would only be available via the space ruin prototype cloner.
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Re: Kill and Clone
What is the point of this thread
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Re: Kill and Clone
vent thread
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Re: Kill and Clone
Yakumo_Chen wrote:time to nerf cloner more I guess
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Re: Kill and Clone
AKA nobody will use the cloner and people are permadead unless medbay is graced with strange reagent.Dr_bee wrote:Better would be to just have the cloner print catatonic bodies that you can use to swap the brain of the dead guy into. This is more a discussion about code than it is about policy.
I tried an event where if anyone tried to make a cloner or replace the one I removed from medbay, I'd destroy it. I gave them a third surgery room and additional monkey cubes. More importantly, only one geneticist, so a genetic pod was free. This was a traitor round. People either used strange reagent or they threw the body into the morgue.
I have genuine concerns our playerbase are such animals at times that a semi-reasonable amount of effort on their part would prove to be too much. We have no minimum standard of competency in jobs or roles and we have no desire to enforce any specific requirements needed to being back people who died outside of your efforts. As a result, we can't really force anyone to use complex methods to bring people back into the round or treat them in a non-destructive way (like kill and clone before upgrades).
We could speculate on what would be healthier gameplay all we like. But at the end of the day the bleak reality of it is that we probably are more likely to see extreme laziness on the part of players unless heavily incentivized not to be so.
- cedarbridge
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Re: Kill and Clone
Pull off the bandaid.NecromancerAnne wrote:AKA nobody will use the cloner and people are permadead unless medbay is graced with strange reagent.Dr_bee wrote:Better would be to just have the cloner print catatonic bodies that you can use to swap the brain of the dead guy into. This is more a discussion about code than it is about policy.
I tried an event where if anyone tried to make a cloner or replace the one I removed from medbay, I'd destroy it. I gave them a third surgery room and additional monkey cubes. More importantly, only one geneticist, so a genetic pod was free. This was a traitor round. People either used strange reagent or they threw the body into the morgue.
I have genuine concerns our playerbase are such animals at times that a semi-reasonable amount of effort on their part would prove to be too much. We have no minimum standard of competency in jobs or roles and we have no desire to enforce any specific requirements needed to being back people who died outside of your efforts. As a result, we can't really force anyone to use complex methods to bring people back into the round or treat them in a non-destructive way (like kill and clone before upgrades).
We could speculate on what would be healthier gameplay all we like. But at the end of the day the bleak reality of it is that we probably are more likely to see extreme laziness on the part of players unless heavily incentivized not to be so.
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