Reimoo wrote:dezzmont wrote:I think the reason people keep saying "Muh realism" is because the proposed benefits have not been articulated often, even people pro-change talk about realism a lot.
Well, to avoid another wall of text, here's the pros vs cons I can imagine resulting from this.
+MDs/EMTs become relevant for once since on scene treatment would need to be utilized more often
+ROLLERBEDS
+less blood trails as a result of people gunning it to the medbay with bodies in tow, meaning blood trails leading to actual crime scenes wouldn't go unignored
+traitors will actually have to use their head as to how to hide evidence/plan out abductions for once
+removal of stun and kindap combat since that's not really fun for anyone
-playing cargo is somewhat more tedious, but either forgoing slowdown on crates, introducing something like a crate trolley or more conveyer belt and MULE usage would be a solution
-it's more likely getting critted is more fatal, especially if medbay is down, but could be considered an antag buff in that regard
-escorting changelings to their demise just got way harder
A lot of these positives are either subjective or unsubstantiated. For example you say removing stun kidnap combat is a good without proving how. Stun kidnap combat is a thing with positive and negative aspects.
Stun and kidnap combat specifically is actually a halmark of some of the better stories in the game. A lot of people see it as a plus because it allows more playstyles to flourish that don't involve either assassinating someone with a parapen or killing the entire station. We have seen that traitors try to use their heads but they also will default to the best tools for a job, removing a traitor's telecrystals also forces them to use their head but no one seriously advocates that because traitors need some advantages and leway to stand a fighting chance. The fact that it is hard to catch someone running away from you is
intentional. There are very few mechanics designed to make it easier and in fact chases have been nerfed a couple of times. This is because sec is designed to make an open conflict deliberately sub-optimal, but also so that running and hiding almost certainly will save you, at least for a while.
Stun and kidnap combat is also much harder with the fatigue change anyway.
Some more negatives include:
It is harder for co-operative antags to save each other
It is harder for onlookers without weapons to help in a fight as they can't rescue drag.
Cult is going to be nightmarishly hard.
Mining is going to be god awful because they are extremely reliant on dragging things.
Managing uncuffed prisoners is much harder, and that is actually something you need to do quite often.
Space rescues become downright impossible.
Successful assassinations will be undone a frustrating percentage of the time.
And most importantly:
Non-medics will be much less likely to bother with recovering bodies alive and we will see even more cloning than we did back in 2013, when medical was super gimped and you basically had the option of a super lengthy cryo stay or cloning. This means medics will become less relevant than the geneticist because in field healing is seen as a super inefficient waste of time without advanced chemicals.
This change has more negatives than you think, anyone who has played for a long time through medical revisions knows how delicate the medic job is, and nerfing them is not a good way to buff them, because cloning is actually a really easy process so as long as your body is recovered at all you are dandy. To make field surgery useful you need to make field surgery worth something without advanced chemistry chemicals, which are not seen as useful because the sleeper exists, and the sleeper is only useful because injecting someone with 5 clicks is way faster than cloning, but it is also really easy to recover bodies.
The idea has merit, but acting like there won't be extreme costs to just slowing down all dragging is downright dishonest. It is a huge mechanic that has a lot of positive effects on the game. You say that the dragfu combat system is annoying and unfun, but can you actually say what people will do to compensate? The only tactic I can think of is the microbomb, and if anything is a bullshit unfun mechanic it is getting stuck by one of those and insta-gibbing out of nowhere, there is no real interaction or counterplay, and you are permanently removed from the round in 3 seconds. Drag-fu creates a dynamic where you could potentially be saved or recover to fight back if the traitor messes up or someone comes to help you. The scenario plays out over a minute with multiple exchanges and chances for unexpected failure. The fact you personally are not in control is deliberate. SS13 is never going to be a game where you always get to act all the time. But stun combat and drag mechanics do make it so that every situation you are in is somehow a result of choices you made. The fact you are getting dragged about isn't fun for you, but it creates a lot of fun for other people in the round and because you had chances to avoid it, it is fair.
