Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

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Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

Postby Denton » Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:40 pm #595181

Alright, so some people have been complaining about tourist bots being fucked with by the usual tiders (throwing floor tiles at them, stealing their dishes, welding them in lockers, etc.).

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Just to clarify once and for all - does this count as regular grief and a rule 1 violation that is bwoinkable? Or does this just count as "regular" IC escalation, aka you have to fight the people trying to griff your kitchen and risk dying in the process?
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Re: Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

Postby oranges » Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:51 pm #595182

when you make a policy post and quote goof you automatically lose all credibility

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Re: Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

Postby PKPenguin321 » Wed Mar 10, 2021 11:18 pm #595184

oranges wrote:when you make a policy post and quote goof you automatically lose all credibility

to build on this and bring it to the thread topic, Goof is not the final say on what policy is and him just saying "admins pretty definitely said XYZ" does not dictate policy. with that being said this thread should be used to clarify if this behavior is explicitly rule-breaking
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Re: Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Wed Mar 10, 2021 11:26 pm #595185

why would it be bwoinkable to kill 1000hp mobs that respawn on death? lol

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Re: Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

Postby ArcaneDefence » Wed Mar 10, 2021 11:36 pm #595188

Tlaltecuhtli wrote:why would it be bwoinkable to kill 1000hp mobs that respawn on death? lol

They're 150 hp now, and they serve as a means for the chef to generate profit. Killing them makes it so the new one has a different order, and if the chef has already spent their funds getting ingredients for the orders at hand you could lock them out of fulfilling orders.
You're literally impeding someone's ability to do bounties within their job.

There's no benefit in attacking or killing the tourist bots, so it's being a dick. Go figure.

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Re: Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Wed Mar 10, 2021 11:48 pm #595190

wait for another to have same order, cargo bounties are more interactive and profitable if they want to buy ingredients, this is just some minigame for when nothing is happening and they can always beat the tider to death and cook him

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Re: Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

Postby oranges » Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:03 am #595191

This feature is barely out of infancy, trying to get policy ruling on it now is pointless.

If the grief continues expect them to get stronger

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Re: Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

Postby Ayy Lemoh » Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:16 am #595192

Tlaltecuhtli wrote:they can always beat the tider to death and cook him

But are they allowed to? Let's find out in this thread!

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Re: Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

Postby iamgoofball » Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:44 am #595196

PKPenguin321 wrote:
oranges wrote:when you make a policy post and quote goof you automatically lose all credibility

to build on this and bring it to the thread topic, Goof is not the final say on what policy is and him just saying "admins pretty definitely said XYZ" does not dictate policy. with that being said this thread should be used to clarify if this behavior is explicitly rule-breaking

go ahead and check with floyd, he was told directly by like 2 admins that bot grief == IC issue

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Re: Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

Postby iamgoofball » Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:08 am #595199

Tlaltecuhtli wrote:they can always beat the tider to death and cook him

You're forgetting something here.
The chef doesn't want to beat up greytiders for an hour, they want to make food.
The greytider is coming to the chef to get a fight, it's why they grief the chef, it's to fabricate valids.

Beating the tider to death is just rewarding the tider's behavior because they got what they wanted, a fight.

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Re: Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

Postby oranges » Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:45 am #595208

I forgot the old "2 admins said" rule that sets policy, my bad

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Re: Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

Postby Flatulent » Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:48 am #595217

Killing tourists is rp move
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Re: Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:20 am #595227

Ayy Lemoh wrote:But are they allowed to? Let's find out in this thread!


you dont need a policy change for basic application of rule 1 and rule 10, this thread is about making it a bannable offense which is as retarded as banning people cause they made you lose on an arcade orion trial game by clicking the kill crewmember botton


iamgoofball wrote:The chef doesn't want to beat up greytiders for an hour, they want to make food.
The greytider is coming to the chef to get a fight, it's why they grief the chef, it's to fabricate valids.


so does a clown slipping sec, but does it need admin to deal with it? no, he is there to slip people
mime throwing glasses in bar, does it need admin to bwoink? no, bartender gets to start a bar fight to break the monotony of filling glasses
if chef cant handle players ruining his singleplayer minigame that has no effects on the round maybe they should reinstall windows vista and play the actual purple palace videogame instead of a knockoff
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Re: Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

Postby XDTM » Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:49 am #595230

Tlaltecuhtli wrote:
Ayy Lemoh wrote:But are they allowed to? Let's find out in this thread!


you dont need a policy change for basic application of rule 1 and rule 10, this thread is about making it a bannable offense which is as retarded as banning people cause they made you lose on an arcade orion trial game by clicking the kill crewmember botton


Rule 1 can technically cover everything, and yet we still need the other rules because its wording is up to interpretation;
a policy thread is a good place to pin down a semi-specific interpretation in regards to people messing with tourist bots, whether it's fully allowing it, instant permaban, or anything inbetween.

Even if the prevailing opinion ends up being that it's fun greytide that should be allowed, it's still worth having the thread as a precedent.

Shutting down this kind of thread without any conclusion just means that admins will instead have to apply their own interpretation of the rule, which may vary between each admin, which causes complaints later on about inconsistent administration.
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Re: Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

Postby Fhaxaris » Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:08 pm #595236

i commit robot genocide using the destructive analyzer and an admin made me into android

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Re: Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

Postby Kryson » Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:00 pm #595242

Unless it is done every round, it is IC. But makes you valid to chef.

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Re: Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

Postby Armhulen » Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:43 pm #595250

Tlaltecuhtli wrote:
you dont need a policy change for basic application of rule 1 and rule 10, this thread is about making it a bannable offense which is as retarded as banning people cause they made you lose on an arcade orion trial game by clicking the kill crewmember botton


i'm more on the side of waiting to see if the current tourist changes were enough of a deterrent but I should say that fucking with someones arcade machine isn't their job or anything but fucking with the chef's income is their entire jobs gameplay loop (yes its become their gameplay loop because before chef had none)
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Re: Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

Postby Denton » Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:44 am #595293

oranges wrote:when you make a policy post and quote goof you automatically lose all credibility

I opened the thread for goof to move this discussion out of the coding channel to the forums
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Re: Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

Postby terranaut » Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:54 am #595295

Sounds like killing Ian
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Re: Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

Postby Vekter » Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:32 pm #595309

Eh, put it under greytiding. Something you can be asked to stop doing and repeated instances get you in trouble.
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Re: Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

Postby Mickyan » Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:01 pm #595338

Armhulen wrote:i'm more on the side of waiting to see if the current tourist changes were enough of a deterrent but I should say that fucking with someones arcade machine isn't their job or anything but fucking with the chef's income is their entire jobs gameplay loop (yes its become their gameplay loop because before chef had none)

Gotta say I don't like this line of thinking because chef most certanly had a gameplay loop and if tourist were meant to replace them actually making food for the crew then we either remove hunger or we can't blame people for messing with the chef doing their own thing while the rest of the crew has no food
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Re: Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

Postby Armhulen » Sat Mar 13, 2021 12:29 am #595345

Mickyan wrote:Gotta say I don't like this line of thinking because chef most certanly had a gameplay loop

it most certainly did not thank you

Mickyan wrote: and if tourist were meant to replace them actually making food for the crew

not the intention and chefs that do this are bad, no part of what chef does with tourist bot orders stops them from serving normal people as nearly if not all maps have two windows to serve from and only one is built to take tourists.

Mickyan wrote:then we either remove hunger or we can't blame people for messing with the chef doing their own thing while the rest of the crew has no food

kind of a big if there but yeah if the chef is not doing their job then he should be lynched because the station genuinely relies on him to stave away really ugly debuffs and we designed the game to make snacks not a solution to a bad chef. still, chef shouldn't be condemned to literally just afking after they make more food than the entire station could ever go through without an acid spray bottle so that's why tourists exist
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Re: Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

Postby Man_Shroom » Sat Mar 13, 2021 1:00 am #595346

this is fundamentally a mapper issue

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Re: Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

Postby Kassori » Sat Mar 13, 2021 3:57 am #595352

The thought of getting bwoinked for smashing one of an army of constantly spawning Annoy-o-Trons after yet another chef ignoring the actual players is laughable.
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Re: Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

Postby Mickyan » Sat Mar 13, 2021 4:03 pm #595381

Armhulen wrote:it most certainly did not thank you

Eh, call it whatever but what I meant is chef still has an obligation to the crew and the tourists aren't the only (nor primary) focus of the job, but I agree with everything else
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Re: Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

Postby Agux909 » Sat Mar 13, 2021 4:19 pm #595382

Very easy fix. Let's just make it consensus to call 100% valid anyone who messes with the bots, no IC escalation bullshit.

Once you hear "x messing with bots" in comms it's immediate greenlight to lynch the bastard, and any act of lethal retaliation gets'em a vacation for blatant killbaiting.
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Re: Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

Postby saprasam » Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:24 pm #595385

you have a gun for a reason nose-swab swallower
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Re: Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

Postby Armhulen » Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:31 pm #595386

Agux909 wrote:Very easy fix. Let's just make it consensus to call 100% valid anyone who messes with the bots, no IC escalation bullshit.

Once you hear "x messing with bots" in comms it's immediate greenlight to lynch the bastard, and any act of lethal retaliation gets'em a vacation for blatant killbaiting.

this is pretty over the top for a job that already has over the top anti greytide stuff
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Re: Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

Postby Agux909 » Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:34 pm #595387

Armhulen wrote:
Agux909 wrote:Very easy fix. Let's just make it consensus to call 100% valid anyone who messes with the bots, no IC escalation bullshit.

Once you hear "x messing with bots" in comms it's immediate greenlight to lynch the bastard, and any act of lethal retaliation gets'em a vacation for blatant killbaiting.

this is pretty over the top for a job that already has over the top anti greytide stuff


How is it over the top? What benefit do you get from screwing with the bots other than screwing with the cook's job as non-antag. It's not like they drop loot or something, it's literally the definition of being a dick.
oranges wrote:I'm glad you had the intelligence to review your position and understand how stupid it was, most don't

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Re: Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

Postby Armhulen » Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:04 pm #595391

Agux909 wrote:
Armhulen wrote:
Agux909 wrote:Very easy fix. Let's just make it consensus to call 100% valid anyone who messes with the bots, no IC escalation bullshit.

Once you hear "x messing with bots" in comms it's immediate greenlight to lynch the bastard, and any act of lethal retaliation gets'em a vacation for blatant killbaiting.

this is pretty over the top for a job that already has over the top anti greytide stuff


How is it over the top? What benefit do you get from screwing with the bots other than screwing with the cook's job as non-antag. It's not like they drop loot or something, it's literally the definition of being a dick.

While true, are you sure we aren't impeding any level of antagonism that would be fair? Like screwing with people's jobs is a pretty low level fun antag thing to do
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Re: Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

Postby Agux909 » Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:13 pm #595392

Armhulen wrote:
Agux909 wrote:
Armhulen wrote:
Agux909 wrote:Very easy fix. Let's just make it consensus to call 100% valid anyone who messes with the bots, no IC escalation bullshit.

Once you hear "x messing with bots" in comms it's immediate greenlight to lynch the bastard, and any act of lethal retaliation gets'em a vacation for blatant killbaiting.

this is pretty over the top for a job that already has over the top anti greytide stuff


How is it over the top? What benefit do you get from screwing with the bots other than screwing with the cook's job as non-antag. It's not like they drop loot or something, it's literally the definition of being a dick.

While true, are you sure we aren't impeding any level of antagonism that would be fair? Like screwing with people's jobs is a pretty low level fun antag thing to do


It's on par with breaking windows indiscriminately through the station, killing pets, breaking light tubes, etc...

These are usually met with an IC lynch and no objection from anyone (well maybe the AI)
oranges wrote:I'm glad you had the intelligence to review your position and understand how stupid it was, most don't

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Re: Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

Postby Kassori » Sat Mar 13, 2021 8:34 pm #595394

Windows don't respawn near instantly. Heck, they don't respawn at all. The "chef spent money to do it" argument is silly when you're suggesting the chef valid someone over 40 credits. Anyone think maybe making the robots less annoying would help?
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Re: Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

Postby Domitius » Sun Mar 14, 2021 1:54 am #595408

oranges wrote:This feature is barely out of infancy, trying to get policy ruling on it now is pointless.

If the grief continues expect them to get stronger


Vekter wrote:Eh, put it under greytiding. Something you can be asked to stop doing and repeated instances get you in trouble.


I agree with these two comments

On a different note please be civil with each other or you go on post approval.

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Re: Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

Postby Cimika » Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:17 am #595456

Very much an IC issue and I agree it's too early to make policy on it.
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Re: Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

Postby Omega_DarkPotato » Sun Mar 14, 2021 5:17 pm #595468

If it's an IC thing, can we get some sort of further ruling on doing this as a non-antagonist?
pre-tourist bots, I played a decent bit of bartender (haven't played bartender for a while because of the following though) and I would always set up these large, fancy drink displays of a bunch of drinks with pretty sprites.

Around once/twice a round, every round, some people would come in and throw all my drinks at a wall, breaking the glasses and wasting not only the time I spent making them, but the limited supply of drinking glasses I can even get from my booze-o-mat.
If it's "ic" but also "low level antag fun" can we please have this sort of shit regarded as being a dick if they're not actually an antagonist?


trashing chef/bartender's work doesn't give any gain to the person doing it, and if you're doing it as a non-antagonist you're just doing it to be a dick.
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Re: Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

Postby Misdoubtful » Sun Mar 14, 2021 5:54 pm #595469

Honestly feels IC unless its like someone just camping the spawner / killing a bunch just because. A lot of people do things that impede peoples jobs, kind of like this. Doing it without a reason and being surprised when the cook bonks you would be kinda silly.

They respawn, not a lot of value is lost, they also respawn quickly. So its not liking losing something rare and valuable, right? Or stacking loss until it really becomes a pain.

If its happening often because they are just a new feature why make policy on them when that might just die down when the novelty of them does?

Omega_DarkPotato wrote:If it's an IC thing, can we get some sort of further ruling on doing this as a non-antagonist?
pre-tourist bots, I played a decent bit of bartender (haven't played bartender for a while because of the following though) and I would always set up these large, fancy drink displays of a bunch of drinks with pretty sprites.

Around once/twice a round, every round, some people would come in and throw all my drinks at a wall, breaking the glasses and wasting not only the time I spent making them, but the limited supply of drinking glasses I can even get from my booze-o-mat.
If it's "ic" but also "low level antag fun" can we please have this sort of shit regarded as being a dick if they're not actually an antagonist?


Kind of like this. throwing a drink or two is one thing, throwing all of them is another.
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Re: Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

Postby Qustinnus » Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:43 pm #595528

The actual problems that noone has pointed out are as follows:
1. You can get rare orders that take up a lot of expensive resources. Killing the bot with that order can kill your rounds income because you are now without cash.

2. You can go attack the person griefiing you but it will bait you out of your kitchen and if the other person is better than you because this is all they do, they will probably win and kill you because hey, you attacked them. This is obviously killbaiting and doesn't require a policy change but it is not enforced at all and even though admins will reply to this saying it is, it's not true. Just look at the amount of burnt out assistants and cargo players doing this exact thing.


The obvious solution is not in policy but in code changes. With the main one being bots being capable of being able to defend themselves. The person who is vehemently against this is Timberpoes who can't stand the idea of this issue being resolved through code because it steps on the admins toes according to him.

Tldr: this thread is useless and it only proves the point that was made in discord about this obviously being kill bait most of the time that wont be solved by admins

Kassori wrote:Windows don't respawn near instantly. Heck, they don't respawn at all. The "chef spent money to do it" argument is silly when you're suggesting the chef valid someone over 40 credits. Anyone think maybe making the robots less annoying would help?

The ordwrs go up to 1k credits or something. If you're going to make arguments like this atleast have an inkling of a clue what you're talking about.

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Byond Username: NamelessFairy

Re: Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

Postby NamelessFairy » Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:40 pm #595550

Seems IC unless excessive to me.

I'd compare it to smashing a window FNR, doing so a few times can be annoying as time and resources can be wasted. However if your going around the station systematically destroying every window it becomes a bit more of an issue.

Likewise, smashing a few bots for a laugh seems like an IC issue, expect the cook to try to tussle with you or potentially get arrested. However if your consistently destroying every single robot for a significant amount of time then I don't see any problems with being asked to stop it down by an admin

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Agux909
 
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:26 pm
Byond Username: Agux909

Re: Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

Postby Agux909 » Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:21 pm #595552

Shitter: destroys bot
Cook: stop
Shitter: destroys bot
Cook: stop!
Shitter: destroys bot
Cook: ;Shitter is destroying bots, valid.

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oranges wrote:I'm glad you had the intelligence to review your position and understand how stupid it was, most don't

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Armhulen
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Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:30 pm
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Re: Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

Postby Armhulen » Mon Mar 15, 2021 5:34 pm #595559

I have played chef on and off and found zero issues so far with greytiding now, People actually just enjoy getting banebroken

edit: cargo doe? yallst better be on my groceries and shit
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carshalash
 
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:57 am
Byond Username: Carshalash

Re: Messing with tourist bots - IC or not IC?

Postby carshalash » Sat Mar 20, 2021 2:23 am #596003

Don't the bots kill you now if you try fucking with them?

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