[Thunder12345] Listick - Ban for killing an armed engi (who appeared to be an antag) in brig

[Listick]

BYOND account: Listick
Character name: Arael The Just
Ban type: Server and roles
Ban length: 1 day for server, no idea how much for roles
Ban reason: As HoS, had a prisoner push the warden down, take his baton and run around inside the brig. Responded to this by lasering them to death, even though the warden was trying to detain them non-lethally, and nothing was preventing them from doing the same. This is not the first time you've jumped straight to gunning people down as sec for poor reasons, stop doing it.
Time ban was placed: 2021-08-05 20:16:55
Server you were playing on when banned: Terry
Round ID in which ban was placed: 167280
Your side of the story: The engineer(I don't remember the name) was arrested and brought to brig. I asked warden to search him before putting in cell but the warden didn't listen. As you can guess when they were in cell the engi pushed warden, stole his baton and forced his way out of cell. The engi then proceeded to walk around, seeing if I'd make a misstep towards him so he could baton me. While warden was still incapable I distanced myself from the engi to not get batoned and shot him, then warden got up and cuffed the engi. A few seconds after the engi was cuffed he died from wounds as I didn't shoot him after warden detained him. Then I said to search the engi and intended to bring him to med if there was no illegal stuff. But we found a lot of antag items, including bombs, so I decided not to revive him at that point.
Why you think you should be unbanned: The ban was unfair because my reasoning wasn't poor, given how the engineer disarmed warden, forced his way out of cell, tried to baton me while still having his full equipment. I started shooting the engi while warden was still incapable and stopped shooting after warden detained him because my intent was to prevent the engi from using other means of harm. The message saying "...their eyes dead and lifeless..." appeared several seconds after I stopped shooting so I can conclude that the engi died from wounds left by my gun. That proves that I only used as much force as was necessary until the engi got cuffed. I also should mention that the warden was able to detain the engineer only because I shot him. Otherwise the engi would have batoned warden again. Also the ban description is misleading. For example, it mentions the armed engineer simply as a "prisoner" so one might think I shot a perma prisoner who had nothing else but baton. Whereas the engineer had full equipment, including antag items, because the warden failed to search him in the first place. Moreover, the engi was trying to baton me and only attampted to escape after he failed.
References of good conduct: I've been playing on tg servers for about 6 months if I'm not mistaken, mainly on Terry. So if needed you can look at my other shifts
Anything else we should know: When admin messaged me in game and in "ban reasoning" they mentioned that it's not the first time I've gunned someone down as HoS, referring to one different case. The problem is these two cases are very very different and can't be compared

[Tlaltecuhtli]

https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/ter ... attack.txt
[2021-08-05 19:55:06.237] ATTACK: Android in crew/(James Ningle HE) Has whispered his final words with -56.7 points of health! (Brig (199,137,2))

he deathgasped in crit

[Stickymayhem]

https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/ter ... attack.txt
[2021-08-05 19:55:06.237] ATTACK: Android in crew/(James Ningle HE) Has whispered his final words with -56.7 points of health! (Brig (199,137,2))

he deathgasped in crit

Just to add to this, in previous instances of succumbing the process has been to assume the attacker would have done everything in their power to revive them. Succumbing basically revoked your right to claim it was a murder and not just being critted.

It's an easy thing to miss when looking at the logs but it changes the situation significantly.

[LoveMirror]

Correct me if I'm wrong but someone carrying a lot of antag items and assaulting secoffs while arrested makes them instantly valid, no?

Act like an antag get treated like one. Security staff is under no obligation to revive someone who is carrying contraband and actively assaulted them, under probable suspicion that it's an antag, and if they weren't they acted like one and were punished for it.

[Thunder11]

https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/ter ... attack.txt
[2021-08-05 19:55:06.237] ATTACK: Android in crew/(James Ningle HE) Has whispered his final words with -56.7 points of health! (Brig (199,137,2))

he deathgasped in crit

In most cases that would have a lot of bearing, but in this case everything you said during the ticket gives me a great deal of confidence that the intent here was to kill. The defence you immediately jumped to was to use what you later found on the body to justify what happened. The only reference to taking anybody to med was a hypothetical suggestion that would would've done do only after stripsearching the body to see what you could find. It's certainly a grey area, but one where I feel your actions were excessive.

Still, I was definitely frustrated because I'd seen quite a few people being absolute shits to each other, and that probably made me want to be harsh here. As such I'm going to err on the side of caution here, remove the ban, and knock this down to a warning. But please, for the future do keep in mind that you have multiple non-lethal options, and you really don't need to go straight to lethals in every single instance of someone resisting arrest.

[Listick]

The defence you immediately jumped to was to use what you later found on the body to justify what happened.

To be fair, I couldn't have done this as I don't have game recordings nor do I know how to use logs(and I probably don't have access to them anyway). So I only used my memory when writing this appeal.

The only reference to taking anybody to med was a hypothetical suggestion that would would've done do only after stripsearching the body to see what you could find.

That's because I considered reviving him even if he behaved like an antag, not if he was an actual antag

but in this case everything you said during the ticket gives me a great deal of confidence that the intent here was to kill

It's most likely my fault as my messages were probably inaccurate because I was answering mid-game, I wasn't sure if it would be appropriate to wait until the end of the round. For example, AI messaged me and said to go to Sat to kill fake HoS in there, officers brought like 2-3 new prisoners and botanist just threw a bomb at me on the way. And all this happened during an active ticket. I thought I could manage all this while answering the ticket, but I ended up sitting near my office and could only tell security the name of the botanist who bombed me.

A side question if I may: was I ahelped by the engineer himself?

[Jimmius]

We're removing this note- I think lethal force is not really noteworthy when being used against an escaped detainee with a stolen stunbaton- the situation could easily turn against you very quickly if he lands a hit, so letting fly with the lasers to put him down is fine. It's also not correct to say he was lasered "to death" when he was lasered to like halfway into crit at most.

Headmin Votes:
Coconutwarrior97: remove.
Jimmius: remove.
Naloac: N/A