Security no longer spawning with batons
- sinfulbliss
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Security no longer spawning with batons
Latejoin security officers are now at a serious disadvantage compared to a shiftstart security officer. It is somewhat common for all the batons that spawn in brig to be gone after 10-20 minutes, especially on highpop, and you are extremely vulnerable until you can find a way to secure a replacement. In many rounds this isn't possible due to the state of the station.
The goal as stated in the PR was to prevent security officers from powergaming two batons in their belt, and encouraging interaction with cargo. The result is that now many officers have no baton, instead of two. Skyrat has modified this change to instead remove batons from the secbelts that come in lockers, but allow officers to spawn with one. This in my experience has been much more effective at forcing officers to only use one baton, since there's no second baton to loot, and also prevents latejoin officers from getting screwed without a baton the whole shift.
As a sidenote, the evidence bags that now spawn in officers' bags aren't ever used (on LRP at least, I can't speak for MRP), and contribute to significant plastic waste around the station.
The goal as stated in the PR was to prevent security officers from powergaming two batons in their belt, and encouraging interaction with cargo. The result is that now many officers have no baton, instead of two. Skyrat has modified this change to instead remove batons from the secbelts that come in lockers, but allow officers to spawn with one. This in my experience has been much more effective at forcing officers to only use one baton, since there's no second baton to loot, and also prevents latejoin officers from getting screwed without a baton the whole shift.
As a sidenote, the evidence bags that now spawn in officers' bags aren't ever used (on LRP at least, I can't speak for MRP), and contribute to significant plastic waste around the station.
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
Wouldn't this change just cause security officers to loot a second sec belt if they'd prefer to powergame in that manner, screwing latejoins even more? This basically turns latejoin security officers into a loot pinata. Disablers run out too quickly and flashes can be ineffective. The stunbaton is the only reliable defense method they have until they can get their full kit from the brig. If powergaming two batons in the belt is actually a problem, then my suggested fix would be as sinfulbliss said, removing the stunbaton from the secbelt and allowing sec officers to spawn one. A few could be kept in the armory to allow for transfers into security/lost batons. This also allows for that additional cargo interaction in case officers want to powergame with the two batons or if they lose their one baton.
- sinfulbliss
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
Yeah, this happens occasionally, although it's not usually selfish officers stealing a second. The more common situation is a shiftstart officer replacing a baton that was stolen from them during the shift, thus causing a latejoin not to have one. Or, even more commonly, the lockers being looted by non-sec, either due to break-ins or freely as a result of a high-threat nukie/cult/blob/rev round in which brig gear is distributed for crew to help fight the threat.BeeSting12 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:39 pm Wouldn't this change just cause security officers to loot a second sec belt if they'd prefer to powergame in that manner, screwing latejoins even more?
Meanwhile the latejoin seccie that came at the 12 minute mark is SOL, and will be essentially replaced by any crewmember that got to a seclocker before him.
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
That's why there is a security checkpoint in Arrivals
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
for assistants easy access.
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
Just get lasers instead
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
Wrote most of this on the PR but since there's a thread, I agree, anyone who wants to play dual batons is just going to take a second at the expense of anyone later joining. See also engineering where it's pretty pointless late joining because engineers dont actually spawn with the gear they need for their job and it's all been tided by the 5 minute mark. Are we going to have to administratively monitor sec to see who loots multiple batons and is this going to be against the rules?
Also concerned about reduction in non lethal weapons (and lets face it, disablers just aren't all that) when we expect security to use non lethal means by policy, and currently do not accept the excuse "i didn't have a non lethal weapon".
But hey, cross both those bridges when we get to them.
Also anything involving interdepartmental co-operation tends to suck. I guess sec co-ordinating and going and standing imposingly in cargo until they get their extra batons could become the new meta (until cargo gets the hint and does it without sec showing up), but I always had hit and miss experiences with cargo. And science. And atmospherics. I.e. all inter-departmental co-operations that have been forced on medical at any point.
Also concerned about reduction in non lethal weapons (and lets face it, disablers just aren't all that) when we expect security to use non lethal means by policy, and currently do not accept the excuse "i didn't have a non lethal weapon".
But hey, cross both those bridges when we get to them.
Also anything involving interdepartmental co-operation tends to suck. I guess sec co-ordinating and going and standing imposingly in cargo until they get their extra batons could become the new meta (until cargo gets the hint and does it without sec showing up), but I always had hit and miss experiences with cargo. And science. And atmospherics. I.e. all inter-departmental co-operations that have been forced on medical at any point.
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
Coders will not stop until security is forced to detain criminals by grouping up and chain shoving them into a wall. If you harm intent a criminal and punch him you WILL be banned
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
This is one of those situation where a change is proposed that at least some of the maintainers champion, everyone predicts what will happen ahead of time and tells them this, the change goes through anyway and the people who actually play the game have to deal with it until they're willing to admit there's a problem and let it be fixed. I think scientists still have to build their own R&D console roundstart because only the RD and weirdly the other heads of staff start with access to research.
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
letting people hoard batons is an admin issue.
You can order plenty more through cargo and if you can't staff and run a competent cargo dept that's a player issue.
You can order plenty more through cargo and if you can't staff and run a competent cargo dept that's a player issue.
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
Wait, so is coming to the station late and finding all the sec belts without their batons intended
This is worse than joining as a miner to find no PKA left because Timmy TwoPKAs wants to Gamer the megafauna, because at least if that happens, you can print plasma cutters and still get minerals
This is worse than joining as a miner to find no PKA left because Timmy TwoPKAs wants to Gamer the megafauna, because at least if that happens, you can print plasma cutters and still get minerals
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
It's not people hoarding batons. It boils down to: why wouldn't the best melee items in the game be looted on highpop LRP by the 15 minute mark?
The primary tool used by a given job shouldn't be walled behind cargo's competence. Perhaps secondary tools, but this would be the equivalent of forcing latejoin miners and doctors to order PKAs and surgery tools through cargo.
Why this change over, say, officers spawning with batons but secbelts not having them? Is there any merit to this over that?
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
Move spare batons into armories so they’re managed by the warden.
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
Baton on belt and/or spare batons in the armory would be a really nice way to make them still lootable and available to people who need replacements but less prone to Three Belts McGee becoming the god of death and leaving every latejoiner high and dry
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
I once wrote a guide to fixing telecomms woohoo
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
Spare batons in the armory was what the PR was based off of originally, IIRC. Sounds like you have your easy feature right there.
Head Coder of /tg/station, hi!Shaps-cloud wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:59 am May eventually become one of the illusive maintainer-headmins if they choose to pursue that path, having a coder in the senior admin leadership has usually been positive for both sides in the past.
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
Because people aren't supposed to have them unless they work for the security team? That would be the roleplay aspectsinfulbliss wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:34 pmIt's not people hoarding batons. It boils down to: why wouldn't the best melee items in the game be looted on highpop LRP by the 15 minute mark?
We absolutely disagree on this point, it is absolutely okay to gate parts of the game behind player competence and I expect and demand that cargo are capable of ordering crates.sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:34 pmThe primary tool used by a given job shouldn't be walled behind cargo's competence. Perhaps secondary tools, but this would be the equivalent of forcing latejoin miners and doctors to order PKAs and surgery tools through cargo.
Why this change over, say, officers spawning with batons but secbelts not having them? Is there any merit to this over that?
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
It's preventing people from changing that fact because hes blocking it
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
Okay so sort of weird questions:
- Policy-wise, is cargo required to order what other departments tell them to?
- What does security do if cargo just says "no, get fucked, we spent it all on guns and on emitters to open our guns?" Arrest them with your 0 batons?
- What do you do in a rev round as a latejoiner sec, where even leaving the shuttle is struggle and you are (in theory) already spending a bunch of your budget on mindshields if revolution hasn't overrun cargo??
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
I once wrote a guide to fixing telecomms woohoo
I once wrote a guide to fixing telecomms woohoo
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
what if cargo is plasma flooded/xploded/cult/murderboned/otherwise nae-nae'd because you came in late
orange man the paranoia factor of the game has ruined my chance of getting the stun baton!! This would be highly dangerous to survive!
orange man the paranoia factor of the game has ruined my chance of getting the stun baton!! This would be highly dangerous to survive!
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
this is pretty cool
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
If a department is effectively gone from the station, then you should feel itwhat if cargo is plasma flooded/xploded/cult/murderboned/otherwise nae-nae'd because you came in late
Head Coder of /tg/station, hi!Shaps-cloud wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:59 am May eventually become one of the illusive maintainer-headmins if they choose to pursue that path, having a coder in the senior admin leadership has usually been positive for both sides in the past.
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
Nah, you should just have access to the things you need to do your job roundstart instead of having to rely on another department for them. There are a million different reasons why an order may not be fulfilled, so it's stupid to get bogged down on any one example that people can think of here. Even if the order is fulfilled, it's a huge pain in the ass to have to wait on cargo each shift for a job item you should just start with. There's no reason security officers can't just spawn with the baton instead of it starting in a locker, or failing that why the baton can't just spawn in the armoury instead.
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
Dude what game are we making for people nowadays omlcacogen wrote: ↑Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:43 amNahMothblocks wrote: ↑Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:30 amIf a department is effectively gone from the station, then you should feel itwhat if cargo is plasma flooded/xploded/cult/murderboned/otherwise nae-nae'd because you came in late
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
Hopefully not one where job items are taken from lockers and given to cargo for people to have to order every shift
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
This is actually ideal, as long as the threat leaves, because then there are no QMs, Miners, and Cargo Techs fucking up the actual use of the Cargo department. You can just break down a window, get your shit, send the shuttle back, and be on your way.Mothblocks wrote: ↑Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:30 amIf a department is effectively gone from the station, then you should feel itShadowflame909 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 13, 2021 1:33 am what if cargo is plasma flooded/xploded/cult/murderboned/otherwise nae-nae'd because you came in late
orange man the paranoia factor of the game has ruined my chance of getting the stun baton!! This would be highly dangerous to survive!
Don't you need a Warden (or someone else with Armory access) to open up the crate of batons you ordered anyway?
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
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I once wrote a guide to fixing telecomms woohoo
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
stun baton crates are sec-level unlockPandarsenic wrote: ↑Mon Dec 13, 2021 5:00 amThis is actually ideal, as long as the threat leaves, because then there are no QMs, Miners, and Cargo Techs fucking up the actual use of the Cargo department. You can just break down a window, get your shit, send the shuttle back, and be on your way.Mothblocks wrote: ↑Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:30 amIf a department is effectively gone from the station, then you should feel itShadowflame909 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 13, 2021 1:33 am what if cargo is plasma flooded/xploded/cult/murderboned/otherwise nae-nae'd because you came in late
orange man the paranoia factor of the game has ruined my chance of getting the stun baton!! This would be highly dangerous to survive!
Don't you need a Warden (or someone else with Armory access) to open up the crate of batons you ordered anyway?
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
the endless battle between gamers who want a underdog to super powerful simulator vs the realistic horror movie victim getting btfo'd by the unstoppable villainArmhulen wrote: ↑Mon Dec 13, 2021 4:09 amDude what game are we making for people nowadays omlcacogen wrote: ↑Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:43 amNahMothblocks wrote: ↑Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:30 amIf a department is effectively gone from the station, then you should feel itwhat if cargo is plasma flooded/xploded/cult/murderboned/otherwise nae-nae'd because you came in late
You get weird middle grounds like this
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
Use a stunprod, as your ancestors once did.
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
when I Use a stunprod a certain part of my brain turns off which makes me reasonable, please I don't wanna use crafted weapons(I go absolutely apeshit).
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
You're regressing. Embrace it.Jonathan Gupta wrote: ↑Mon Dec 13, 2021 7:13 amwhen I Use a stunprod a certain part of my brain turns off which makes me reasonable, please I don't wanna use crafted weapons(I go absolutely apeshit).
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
don't embrace primal instinct kids thats how you get PERMA BANNED
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
Remember, if you don't have stun weapons because they all got looted in advance, you can always "arrest" people by critting them
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(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
That wasn't what that post was saying at all. He just quoted that part of the post and left the rest out to create a strawman to respond to. I didn't even quote Mothblocks in my response, he constructed it that way. He's a shitty, underhanded person and for more reasons than just this.Shadowflame909 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 13, 2021 5:13 amthe endless battle between gamers who want a underdog to super powerful simulator vs the realistic horror movie victim getting btfo'd by the unstoppable villainArmhulen wrote: ↑Mon Dec 13, 2021 4:09 amDude what game are we making for people nowadays omlcacogen wrote: ↑Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:43 amNah, you should just have access to the things you need to do your job roundstart instead of having to rely on another department for them. There are a million different reasons why an order may not be fulfilled, so it's stupid to get bogged down on any one example that people can think of here. Even if the order is fulfilled, it's a huge pain in the ass to have to wait on cargo each shift for a job item you should just start with. There's no reason security officers can't just spawn with the baton instead of it starting in a locker, or failing that why the baton can't just spawn in the armoury instead.Mothblocks wrote: ↑Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:30 amIf a department is effectively gone from the station, then you should feel itwhat if cargo is plasma flooded/xploded/cult/murderboned/otherwise nae-nae'd because you came in late
You get weird middle grounds like this
Mothblocks was using a truism to sidestep the debate about whether security should need to order extra stun batons or not. By saying nah I was telling him to fuck off with the usual disingenuous bullshit, not disagreeing with the thing that generally holds true.
Then when I successfully parried Armhulen's bullshit by refocusing on the issue at hand, the thread spun off in this bizarre direction that is all about trying to find ways to circumvent the issue entirely presumably because it's become socially untenable in people's minds to argue with the powers that be about it when they're self-evidently wrong and know they're wrong and simply don't care or has nothing to do with the issue at all.
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
I think arseholes robbing every sec locker of their batons is entirely a player issue. There is like 6-8 batons in sec spread across the various lockers, and the HoS and Warden get their own secbelts, you probably have enough to go around unless someone is pinching more than one and being greedy.
Alternatively, if you REALLY feel strongly about this whole thing, you could play cargo sec and ensure there is someone there to get those batons out. But I'm not saying that as 'this is now an expected requirement' and more 'if you feel so hard done by, you have an avenue for resolving this as a workaround'.
Alternatively, if you REALLY feel strongly about this whole thing, you could play cargo sec and ensure there is someone there to get those batons out. But I'm not saying that as 'this is now an expected requirement' and more 'if you feel so hard done by, you have an avenue for resolving this as a workaround'.
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
problem: There are HoS/Warden mains who open the armory roundstart whenever possible. You might as well put them back into the backpacks if you do this.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:16 pm I highly doubt any other admin on the team would have given you this chance, except maybe Kieth because his brain worms are almost as bad as mine.
Vekter wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 4:45 pm At what point does someone's refusal or failure to improve become malice in and of itself? If you give someone a year to stop shitting on the carpet and they keep doing it but get slightly closer to the bathroom every time and sometimes they get to the toilet before it happens, at what point does it become acceptable to just ask them to go shit in someone else's house?
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:00 pm I'm sorry, can we get a real player to resolve this appeal? I don't like this trial player. They can't even set their own name.
sinfulbliss wrote: ↑I almost prefer Rave's AI-generated "We cannot accept this appeal at this time. If you would like assistance appealing in the future, please dial 1-800-1984-1488."
Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:25 pm I think we can all agree that someone throwing a reverse revolver at Zyb as a secret test of character, and Zyb immediately fucking himself with it, is the best thing we all could have received for Christmas this year
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
you do, that's why there's one in your job locker you absolute clown, stop being an embarassment.
the only people who have to rely on another dept are late joins who are over the job cap, anything around baton stealing/hoarding is an IC issue to be sorted out by the HoS
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
Then you will have to improvise and get some other types of weapons, which should be a fairly fun experience.Shadowflame909 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 13, 2021 1:33 am what if cargo is plasma flooded/xploded/cult/murderboned/otherwise nae-nae'd because you came in late
orange man the paranoia factor of the game has ruined my chance of getting the stun baton!! This would be highly dangerous to survive!
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
I don't really think the change was needed, but I also don't understand the complaints. It's literally inconsequential unless you're handing out batons to every tom dick and harry.
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
problem that required the change:
officers were carrying multiple batons so that running out of charge or getting disarmed mid-combat was inconsequential.
problem that the change caused:
officers continued to carry multiple batons, so now latejoining officers don't have batons. also, latejoining sec getting mobbed by revs / cultists for their gear/id and being unable to defend themselves.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:16 pm I highly doubt any other admin on the team would have given you this chance, except maybe Kieth because his brain worms are almost as bad as mine.
Vekter wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 4:45 pm At what point does someone's refusal or failure to improve become malice in and of itself? If you give someone a year to stop shitting on the carpet and they keep doing it but get slightly closer to the bathroom every time and sometimes they get to the toilet before it happens, at what point does it become acceptable to just ask them to go shit in someone else's house?
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:00 pm I'm sorry, can we get a real player to resolve this appeal? I don't like this trial player. They can't even set their own name.
sinfulbliss wrote: ↑I almost prefer Rave's AI-generated "We cannot accept this appeal at this time. If you would like assistance appealing in the future, please dial 1-800-1984-1488."
Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:25 pm I think we can all agree that someone throwing a reverse revolver at Zyb as a secret test of character, and Zyb immediately fucking himself with it, is the best thing we all could have received for Christmas this year
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
what if the only place the baton could fit on was the baton belt and it got the laser gun nerf
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
that is not why it was changed, it was changed because security officers started with two batons needlessly, and the decision was made to remove the one spawning on the user so that extending the job cap had some tiny meaningful impact in that you had to order some extra gear for those people.datorangebottle wrote: ↑Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:43 pmproblem that required the change:
officers were carrying multiple batons so that running out of charge or getting disarmed mid-combat was inconsequential.
problem that the change caused:
officers continued to carry multiple batons, so now latejoining officers don't have batons. also, latejoining sec getting mobbed by revs / cultists for their gear/id and being unable to defend themselves.
officers carrying two batons, is and remains to be an IC and policy issue.
again because the change was not around them hoarding batons.Shadowflame909 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:49 pm what if the only place the baton could fit on was the baton belt and it got the laser gun nerf
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
I was responding to Shadowflame actually
Head Coder of /tg/station, hi!Shaps-cloud wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:59 am May eventually become one of the illusive maintainer-headmins if they choose to pursue that path, having a coder in the senior admin leadership has usually been positive for both sides in the past.
Head Admin of /tg/station Feb 2022.
Mothblocks everywhere, >>> Say nice things about me <<<
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
a swiss army knife, so that they don't have to steal entire toolbelts.Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 7:13 pm They should spawn with knives so i can stab people
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:16 pm I highly doubt any other admin on the team would have given you this chance, except maybe Kieth because his brain worms are almost as bad as mine.
Vekter wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 4:45 pm At what point does someone's refusal or failure to improve become malice in and of itself? If you give someone a year to stop shitting on the carpet and they keep doing it but get slightly closer to the bathroom every time and sometimes they get to the toilet before it happens, at what point does it become acceptable to just ask them to go shit in someone else's house?
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:00 pm I'm sorry, can we get a real player to resolve this appeal? I don't like this trial player. They can't even set their own name.
sinfulbliss wrote: ↑I almost prefer Rave's AI-generated "We cannot accept this appeal at this time. If you would like assistance appealing in the future, please dial 1-800-1984-1488."
Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:25 pm I think we can all agree that someone throwing a reverse revolver at Zyb as a secret test of character, and Zyb immediately fucking himself with it, is the best thing we all could have received for Christmas this year
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
good news about this
That australian throwing boomerang baton will actually be useful.
That australian throwing boomerang baton will actually be useful.
► Show Spoiler
- sinfulbliss
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
It is incredibly rare for the sec job cap to get extended by the HoP/cap. And by rare I mean... I've seen it maybe once in the past 50 rounds at most. What isn't rare, though, is latejoin officers not having batons for the whole shift (particularly the newer officers will especially have no hope of figuring out a replacement).oranges wrote: ↑Mon Dec 13, 2021 10:10 pm that is not why it was changed, it was changed because security officers started with two batons needlessly, and the decision was made to remove the one spawning on the user so that extending the job cap had some tiny meaningful impact in that you had to order some extra gear for those people.
I'll leave it at that though, I have no other points except that officers should never be joining a round without a fighting chance in a 1v1, and without a shiftstart baton they can get got quite easily.
Spoiler:
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons
They do have a disabler. It isn't nothing.
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