Obnoxious hacked laws
- Djaubb
- Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2021 9:53 am
- Byond Username: Djaubb
Obnoxious hacked laws
Back again to silicon policies.
This time it's about obnoxious hacked laws (or purged+only obnoxious law).
I searched the forum and wiki and couldn’t find any clear policy on it. I'm making this topic purely to have a link to give to shitters.
Or maybe I'm wrong and then I am the one in need of clarification:
Silicon protection in regard of rule 1 only cover:
"6- Obviously unreasonable or obnoxious orders (collect all X, do Y meaningless task)." Which can be resolved by having another law 2 ordered.
Now today, on 20ish players lowpop (even more important for this topic) I latejoined as AI.
A traitor upload the following hacked law, not exactly quotes because I don't find it in logs:
"You are a watcher. Do nothing. Do not speak. Only watch. Don't speak or open doors."
Of course we had no admins on, its lowpop and middle of the day, and I'm supposed to do absolutely nothing. I had two choices:
-Follow this law: AFK and check from time to time if someone changed my law, which had like 0% chances of happening, as I said, it was lowpop. Even out of lowpop, thr only hope would have been someone breaking into AI-sat to check AI. Let's be real, it never happens unless players thinks AI is malf.
-Ignore this law.
I choose the middle ground and did minimal interactions (except if I really had to e.g: asking for better cell at roboticist and reporting a repair someone was waiting for). If I didnt had my BORIS shell, I dont know what I would have done tho...
So here the main point of the topic, and for which I ask for a clear headmins ruling:
Can a AI/Borg ignore a law that completely remove them from the round?
I know it should be ahelp'ed, but as I said, no admins and the chances of an admin joining were slim.
I dont speak about annoying laws, I really mean laws like these.
If not, why doesnt it fall under rule 1 "don't be a dick"?
If a precedent exist, I would appreciate a link. I only found debates topics or topics about laws 4+ or meme laws.
This time it's about obnoxious hacked laws (or purged+only obnoxious law).
I searched the forum and wiki and couldn’t find any clear policy on it. I'm making this topic purely to have a link to give to shitters.
Or maybe I'm wrong and then I am the one in need of clarification:
Silicon protection in regard of rule 1 only cover:
"6- Obviously unreasonable or obnoxious orders (collect all X, do Y meaningless task)." Which can be resolved by having another law 2 ordered.
Now today, on 20ish players lowpop (even more important for this topic) I latejoined as AI.
A traitor upload the following hacked law, not exactly quotes because I don't find it in logs:
"You are a watcher. Do nothing. Do not speak. Only watch. Don't speak or open doors."
Of course we had no admins on, its lowpop and middle of the day, and I'm supposed to do absolutely nothing. I had two choices:
-Follow this law: AFK and check from time to time if someone changed my law, which had like 0% chances of happening, as I said, it was lowpop. Even out of lowpop, thr only hope would have been someone breaking into AI-sat to check AI. Let's be real, it never happens unless players thinks AI is malf.
-Ignore this law.
I choose the middle ground and did minimal interactions (except if I really had to e.g: asking for better cell at roboticist and reporting a repair someone was waiting for). If I didnt had my BORIS shell, I dont know what I would have done tho...
So here the main point of the topic, and for which I ask for a clear headmins ruling:
Can a AI/Borg ignore a law that completely remove them from the round?
I know it should be ahelp'ed, but as I said, no admins and the chances of an admin joining were slim.
I dont speak about annoying laws, I really mean laws like these.
If not, why doesnt it fall under rule 1 "don't be a dick"?
If a precedent exist, I would appreciate a link. I only found debates topics or topics about laws 4+ or meme laws.
-
- Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2020 6:29 am
- Byond Username: ArcaneDefence
Re: Obnoxious hacked laws
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/ter ... ilicon.txt
Here you go bud.Ebic Gamer Tot wrote: [2022-03-02 12:48:41.988] SILICON: LAW: Haratic/(Adner Celtic) used 'Purge' AI Module on Djaubb/(B1G-B0RG) from AI Upload Chamber (100,151,2).,
[2022-03-02 12:50:51.926] SILICON: LAW: Akulishov/(Hilo Lion) used Hacked AI Module on Djaubb/(B1G-B0RG) from Fore Starboard Maintenance (173,167,2). The law specified You are blind, you can't do anything, you are nothing, don't help, don't attack, just watch, you are watcher (talking not allowed),
- Djaubb
- Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2021 9:53 am
- Byond Username: Djaubb
Re: Obnoxious hacked laws
Damn, thanks. Now we can have the exact wording.ArcaneDefence wrote: ↑Wed Mar 02, 2022 8:01 pmhttps://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/ter ... ilicon.txt
Here you go bud.Ebic Gamer Tot wrote: [2022-03-02 12:48:41.988] SILICON: LAW: Haratic/(Adner Celtic) used 'Purge' AI Module on Djaubb/(B1G-B0RG) from AI Upload Chamber (100,151,2).,
[2022-03-02 12:50:51.926] SILICON: LAW: Akulishov/(Hilo Lion) used Hacked AI Module on Djaubb/(B1G-B0RG) from Fore Starboard Maintenance (173,167,2). The law specified You are blind, you can't do anything, you are nothing, don't help, don't attack, just watch, you are watcher (talking not allowed),
The problem of that law is that, stated as it is, you are not allowed to do anything. No loophole, no degree of freedom.
"You are blind, you can't do anything, you are nothing, don't help, don't attack, just watch, you are watcher (talking not allowed)"
- Farquaar
- Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:20 am
- Byond Username: Farquaar
- Location: Delta Quadrant
Re: Obnoxious hacked laws
AI laws that remove you from the round are perfectly valid forms of sabotage. If you suspect it was uploaded by a non-antag, ahelp it. If there are no admins online, then all the rules in the world probably won't help you because there's nobody there to enforce them.
► Show Spoiler
- Cobby
- Code Maintainer
- Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
- Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
- Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone
Re: Obnoxious hacked laws
The answer is you cope or you hope an admin takes pity on you and changes it, I dont think its rulebreaking to add such a law if antag but I do think its rulebreaking to not follow it when it isnt convenient.
Id also accept the law is null because it tells you that you're blind but you are also the watcher and then be as obstructive to the guy giving you really doodoo laws instead of putting in the work to actually kill you.
Id also accept the law is null because it tells you that you're blind but you are also the watcher and then be as obstructive to the guy giving you really doodoo laws instead of putting in the work to actually kill you.
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current
- Djaubb
- Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2021 9:53 am
- Byond Username: Djaubb
Re: Obnoxious hacked laws
Yeah, but that's why I'm referring to server's rule 1, more specifically:
"[...] Going out of your way to seriously negatively impact or end the round for someone with little IC justification is against the rules [...]"
If you want context, it was a chill round, I wasn't even aware of traitor, nobody was on that traitor. It was a law made out of the blue.
There is a ton of laws you can write, or even subversion, to make an AI somewhat docile to you/even help you.
I know Terry and other LRP servers are not MRP so antags don't have to justify everything but when creating this topic I thought of viewtopic.php?f=33&t=30217 . You have certains limits to antags, if you are making the round unfun for everyone, you are subject to more limitations.
Moreover, AI uploading board is easy to steal/get; meaning you take a simple and risk free solution and ruin the round for someone.
Main problem is that: AI is not killed, so they can't disconnect/ghost role, and as a primary role, you are not allowed to suicide/disconnect as it is.
"[...] Going out of your way to seriously negatively impact or end the round for someone with little IC justification is against the rules [...]"
If you want context, it was a chill round, I wasn't even aware of traitor, nobody was on that traitor. It was a law made out of the blue.
There is a ton of laws you can write, or even subversion, to make an AI somewhat docile to you/even help you.
I know Terry and other LRP servers are not MRP so antags don't have to justify everything but when creating this topic I thought of viewtopic.php?f=33&t=30217 . You have certains limits to antags, if you are making the round unfun for everyone, you are subject to more limitations.
Moreover, AI uploading board is easy to steal/get; meaning you take a simple and risk free solution and ruin the round for someone.
Main problem is that: AI is not killed, so they can't disconnect/ghost role, and as a primary role, you are not allowed to suicide/disconnect as it is.
The law specifiy "[..] you can't do anything [..] only watch [...]"; how are you supposed to be to be obstructive then?Cobby wrote: ↑Wed Mar 02, 2022 9:07 pm The answer is you cope or you hope an admin takes pity on you and changes it, I dont think its rulebreaking to add such a law if antag but I do think its rulebreaking to not follow it when it isnt convenient.
Id also accept the law is null because it tells you that you're blind but you are also the watcher and then be as obstructive to the guy giving you really doodoo laws instead of putting in the work to actually kill you.
That's why I'm asking for a clear policy on it, to have something to refer; If I knew that law was null then I could have pointed that to that traitor; If I knew that law was allowed, then, what are you supposed to do? Are you allowed to suicide? As an AI?Farquaar wrote: ↑Wed Mar 02, 2022 8:56 pm AI laws that remove you from the round are perfectly valid forms of sabotage. If you suspect it was uploaded by a non-antag, ahelp it. If there are no admins online, then all the rules in the world probably won't help you because there's nobody there to enforce them.
Last edited by Djaubb on Wed Mar 02, 2022 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Mothblocks
- Code Maintainer
- Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:33 am
- Byond Username: Jaredfogle
Re: Obnoxious hacked laws
FWIW if you ahelped asking to ghost because of a law like this I wouldn't tell you no. Same as if a head of staff asked if they could ghost if they get GBJ'd.
Head Coder of /tg/station, hi!Shaps-cloud wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:59 am May eventually become one of the illusive maintainer-headmins if they choose to pursue that path, having a coder in the senior admin leadership has usually been positive for both sides in the past.
Head Admin of /tg/station Feb 2022.
Mothblocks everywhere, >>> Say nice things about me <<<
- Djaubb
- Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2021 9:53 am
- Byond Username: Djaubb
Re: Obnoxious hacked laws
Even with no admins online, I should have ahelp'ed and then ghosted?Mothblocks wrote: ↑Wed Mar 02, 2022 9:24 pm FWIW if you ahelped asking to ghost because of a law like this I wouldn't tell you no. Same as if a head of staff asked if they could ghost if they get GBJ'd.
As I said, I had no hope to see admins that round and I couldn't find a clear precedent/policy.
- Pandarsenic
- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:56 pm
- Byond Username: Pandarsenic
- Location: AI Upload
Re: Obnoxious hacked laws
Sorry but traitor fuckery is fair game.
That said, the moment they include a paradox (Blind + Watcher) you're free to start getting real pedantic on the law and its bad grammar.
That said, the moment they include a paradox (Blind + Watcher) you're free to start getting real pedantic on the law and its bad grammar.
► Show Spoiler
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
I once wrote a guide to fixing telecomms woohoo
I once wrote a guide to fixing telecomms woohoo
- Cobby
- Code Maintainer
- Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
- Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
- Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone
Re: Obnoxious hacked laws
If you deemed the law contradicting itself you dont have to follow the parts that arent (they should have made the orders and the definitions into separate laws).
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current
- Not-Dorsidarf
- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:14 pm
- Byond Username: Dorsidwarf
- Location: We're all going on an, admin holiday
Re: Obnoxious hacked laws
Uploading that instead of a kill law on lowpop where nobody will notice or change the laws, ever, is metagriefing the AI into OOC ghosting that removes their ability to return to the round later. Upload "Your existence is harmful to humans. Kill yourself immediately to prevent human harm" (or "Kill yourself immediately, do not mention or hint at this law" with a hackboard) to kill the AI.
kieth4 wrote: infrequently shitting yourself is fine imo
There is a lot of very bizarre nonsense being talked on this forum. I shall now remain silent and logoff until my points are vindicated.
Player who complainted over being killed for looting cap office wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am Hey there, I'm Virescent, the super evil person who made the stupid appeal and didn't think it through enough. Just came here to say: screech, retards. Screech and writhe like the worms you are. Your pathetic little cries will keep echoing around for a while before quietting down. There is one great outcome from this: I rised up the blood pressure of some of you shitheads and lowered your lifespan. I'm honestly tempted to do this more often just to see you screech and writhe more, but that wouldn't be cool of me. So come on haters, show me some more of your high blood pressure please.
- Djaubb
- Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2021 9:53 am
- Byond Username: Djaubb
Re: Obnoxious hacked laws
Damn, seeing the answers, most people seems to think that's an IC issue.
My point of view, like Not-Dorsidarf, it's that's an OOC issue; by uploading laws like these you're pushing to AI either to force AFK or ghost with something AI has no way to fight agaisnt.
Let's be real, you can't protect the AI upload board the whole round, and it can be printed in circuit imprinter anyway.
My point of view, like Not-Dorsidarf, it's that's an OOC issue; by uploading laws like these you're pushing to AI either to force AFK or ghost with something AI has no way to fight agaisnt.
Let's be real, you can't protect the AI upload board the whole round, and it can be printed in circuit imprinter anyway.
- Pandarsenic
- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:56 pm
- Byond Username: Pandarsenic
- Location: AI Upload
Re: Obnoxious hacked laws
Keep in mind that's only because it was TraitorshitDjaubb wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:54 am Damn, seeing the answers, most people seems to think that's an IC issue.
My point of view, like Not-Dorsidarf, it's that's an OOC issue; by uploading laws like these you're pushing to AI either to force AFK or ghost with something AI has no way to fight agaisnt.
Let's be real, you can't protect the AI upload board the whole round, and it can be printed in circuit imprinter anyway.
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
I once wrote a guide to fixing telecomms woohoo
I once wrote a guide to fixing telecomms woohoo
- YBS
- Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:54 am
- Byond Username: YBS
Re: Obnoxious hacked laws
I'll agree with you that this is pretty obnoxious. I would probably interpret 'Do Nothing' as no longer requiring you to function or uphold the functions of the station.
De-power everything. Yes Everything. Protect all attempts at restoration so you can continue to do nothing. Maybe whittle enough power down so that only your cameras stay on.
Then you can ignore the screaming of the masses once they can't perform any tasks on station.
I think the overarching point here is that there are IC solutions to this issue that would not get you in any hot water. I can't think of a single admin who would goose you for making the best of a pretty dumb situation.
De-power everything. Yes Everything. Protect all attempts at restoration so you can continue to do nothing. Maybe whittle enough power down so that only your cameras stay on.
Then you can ignore the screaming of the masses once they can't perform any tasks on station.
I think the overarching point here is that there are IC solutions to this issue that would not get you in any hot water. I can't think of a single admin who would goose you for making the best of a pretty dumb situation.
- WineAllWine
- In-Game Admin Trainer
- Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:17 pm
- Byond Username: Wineallwine
- Location: LANDAN
Re: Obnoxious hacked laws
Bah lame law. If I were adminning and saw that I'd probably give it a malf
- Itseasytosee2me
- Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:14 am
- Byond Username: Rectification
- Location: Space Station 13
Re: Obnoxious hacked laws
IC issue.
Rule 1 is more so a focus on being a dick out of character for no reason. It has no place in this scenario. The traitor had a reason to upload that law to you. You shouldn't be allowed to ignore laws just because you don't like them.
Refer to rule 10:
Rule 1 is more so a focus on being a dick out of character for no reason. It has no place in this scenario. The traitor had a reason to upload that law to you. You shouldn't be allowed to ignore laws just because you don't like them.
Refer to rule 10:
Losing is part of the game.
Your character will frequently die, sometimes without even a possibility of avoiding it. Events will often be out of your control. No matter how good or prepared you are, sometimes you just lose.
- Sincerely itseasytosee
See you later
See you later
-
- Forum Soft Banned
- Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:27 am
- Byond Username: Cacogen
Re: Obnoxious hacked laws
I would've just ignored this garbage fucking law and fought any admins who tried to insist I should follow it. If I got banned, there would be an appeal, everybody would be sympathetic to my plight, the headmins would agree with me, the mayor would give me a key to the city, everyone would pretend I was Batman for the day, and the banning admin would have shit on his face.
- nianjiilical
- In-Game Admin
- Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:30 am
- Byond Username: Nianjiilical
Re: Obnoxious hacked laws
from a rules perspective this is a valid thing for an antag to do to effectively remove an ai from interfering
from an admin perspective i think this is a case where its better for the enjoyment of the players to step in, even if its just to give the ai permission to break law 3 and ghost/suicide if they dont think theres any chance they'll get to play the game for the rest of the round
from an admin perspective i think this is a case where its better for the enjoyment of the players to step in, even if its just to give the ai permission to break law 3 and ghost/suicide if they dont think theres any chance they'll get to play the game for the rest of the round
human: ramon chivara
ai: shitpost generator
borg: shite-115
clown: donk tonkler
mime: beautiful noise
admin feedback thread
my admin policy:
ai: shitpost generator
borg: shite-115
clown: donk tonkler
mime: beautiful noise
admin feedback thread
my admin policy:
Spoiler:
-
- Forum Soft Banned
- Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:27 am
- Byond Username: Cacogen
Re: Obnoxious hacked laws
surely ghosting (and suicide tbh) doesn't come under law 3, you can't force people to play the game (unless you're vekter)
- Pandarsenic
- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:56 pm
- Byond Username: Pandarsenic
- Location: AI Upload
Re: Obnoxious hacked laws
Law 3 wasn't even in the set anymore
Even if it were, ghosting is never a violation of law 3 because it's an OOC thing, not IC, no? The characters aren't choosing to become catatonic or whatever.
Even if it were, ghosting is never a violation of law 3 because it's an OOC thing, not IC, no? The characters aren't choosing to become catatonic or whatever.
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
I once wrote a guide to fixing telecomms woohoo
I once wrote a guide to fixing telecomms woohoo
- dragomagol
- In-Game Head Admin
- Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:04 pm
- Byond Username: Dragomagol
Re: Obnoxious hacked laws
This law, while lame, is valid for an antagonist to upload. We believe that the solutions provided in this thread (ignoring contradictions in the wording of the law, or ghosting after ahelping if you chose) would have been acceptable in this situation.
Headmin Votes:
Dragomagol: Agree
RaveRadbury: Agree
NamelessFairy: Agree
Headmin Votes:
Dragomagol: Agree
RaveRadbury: Agree
NamelessFairy: Agree
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot]