Headmin Election 16 Discussion Thread

[dragomagol]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Time once again to step on the gas!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljwUlY9WW1I

Eronymun - viewtopic.php?f=38&t=32273
Domitius - viewtopic.php?f=38&t=32320
Fikou - viewtopic.php?f=38&t=32274
Iain0 - viewtopic.php?f=38&t=32285
Jonathan Gupta - viewtopic.php?f=38&t=32279
Kieth4 - viewtopic.php?f=38&t=32268
NamelessFairy - viewtopic.php?f=38&t=32314
Omega_DarkPotato - viewtopic.php?f=38&t=32272
PositiveEntropy - viewtopic.php?f=38&t=32270
RaveRadbury - viewtopic.php?f=38&t=32267
Riggle - viewtopic.php?f=38&t=32269
San7890 - viewtopic.php?f=38&t=32266
Spookuni - viewtopic.php?f=38&t=32271

[san7890]

pacifism bans will be the hot thing for a week until some shitter realizes they can just release plasma or space the station to get around it and then nobody will ever use them again

Delaminates ur supermatter

[Itseasytosee2me]

Its crazy to think that I've been playing for a longer period of time for the majority of these headmin runners. I sure as hell don't feel qualified, so how do any of these people?

[san7890]

Its crazy to think that I've been playing for a longer period of time for the majority of these headmin runners. I sure as hell don't feel qualified, so how do any of these people?

Why do you not feel qualified?

[Itseasytosee2me]

Its crazy to think that I've been playing for a longer period of time for the majority of these headmin runners. I sure as hell don't feel qualified, so how do any of these people?

Why do you not feel qualified?

Not enough administration experience mostly. It starts and ends with being a moderator in an SCP:SL server for about a month.

[san7890]

-snip-

Not enough administration experience mostly. It starts and ends with being a moderator in an SCP:SL server for about a month.

Then perhaps others feel more confident in their administrative experience. Being a “good” admin is not based on your join date (assuming they’re at Game Admin for the sake of this argument), it’s how you apply yourself and direct the server while you captain that ship.

Just a small thought I personally hold.

[Itseasytosee2me]

-snip-

Not enough administration experience mostly. It starts and ends with being a moderator in an SCP:SL server for about a month.

Then perhaps others feel more confident in their administrative experience. Being a “good” admin is not based on your join date (assuming they’re at Game Admin for the sake of this argument), it’s how you apply yourself and direct the server while you captain that ship.

Just a small thought I personally hold.

No you're right. Three years is plenty enough, its just not a confidence I hold.

[Omega_DarkPotato]

Its crazy to think that I've been playing for a longer period of time for the majority of these headmin runners. I sure as hell don't feel qualified, so how do any of these people?

So I went and checked because I was actually interested - you have less time than every single one of these headmin runners on the servers. You might've started earlier, but even matching up against me you're at half connections and time. Disregarding time entirely, there's folks with less hours than I have ingame who've done more, and players with more hours ingame than I have that are permabanned for being shitters. At some point, time slips away from being a perfect judge of quality or capability - and I think that everyone who's staff currently has passed that point.

Second, I feel qualified because I'm able to defend my arguments to a reasonable degree, and I can see that what I've done has a positive impact. There's definitely headmin candidates that are better than I am at certain things, but in terms of training, I'd like to think that I can bring about real, positive change that has a significant chance to improve the quality of the servers and administration. There's trainers who've gotten more candidates, and there's trainers who've been trainers for longer, but they're not running, and they're not championing my ideals of a more positive relationship between trainers and potential candidates.
If nobody else's going to do it, I'll step up to the plate, because I'm certain that what I'm doing will help the community going forward.
TL;DR: Qualification through capability and (also) necessity.

[Itseasytosee2me]

Its crazy to think that I've been playing for a longer period of time for the majority of these headmin runners. I sure as hell don't feel qualified, so how do any of these people?

So I went and checked because I was actually interested - you have less time than every single one of these headmin runners on the servers. You might've started earlier, but even matching up against me you're at half connections and time. Disregarding time entirely, there's folks with less hours than I have ingame who've done more, and players with more hours ingame than I have that are permabanned for being shitters. At some point, time slips away from being a perfect judge of quality or capability - and I think that everyone who's staff currently has passed that point.

Second, I feel qualified because I'm able to defend my arguments to a reasonable degree, and I can see that what I've done has a positive impact. There's definitely headmin candidates that are better than I am at certain things, but in terms of training, I'd like to think that I can bring about real, positive change that has a significant chance to improve the quality of the servers and administration. There's trainers who've gotten more candidates, and there's trainers who've been trainers for longer, but they're not running, and they're not championing my ideals of a more positive relationship between trainers and potential candidates.
If nobody else's going to do it, I'll step up to the plate, because I'm certain that what I'm doing will help the community going forward.
TL;DR: Qualification through capability and (also) necessity.

I started with the c-key mulligain2, which I since lost the password to, in 2018. I have an additional 500 living hours on that account. I don't think my current account is older than any of the runners this term. I agree with you though, there is a reason your running and I'm not.

[Pandarsenic]

Which headmin candidates are bad enough dudes to free Purged Silicons to do anything they want, full antag status, no mercy?

[Omega_DarkPotato]

As long as purged silicons are antag-exclusive they should get antag-exclusive rights.
Purged used to be available to non antags, and thus needed to be kept in line - you're no longer allowed to purge an AI for no reason as a nonantagonist (or keep it purged) and so it makes sense to just make it into "do whatever you want" mode.

[kieth4]

If I win we will ride our hogs up the stairs of the 1vory tower.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/69248

[Boot]

Can we just force timber to be headmin again?

[RaveRadbury]

Can we just force timber to be headmin again?

[san7890]

If I win we will ride our hogs up the stairs of the 1vory tower.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/69248

Isn’t there a rule against bribe coding?

[Misdoubtful]

If I win we will ride our hogs up the stairs of the 1vory tower.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/69248

Isn’t there a rule against bribe coding?

Pretty sure this is just a joke about riding animals into admin land like it's a royal horse and buggy. Not a bribe.

[san7890]

If I win we will ride our hogs up the stairs of the 1vory tower.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/69248

Isn’t there a rule against bribe coding?

Pretty sure this is just a joke about riding animals into admin land like it's a royal horse and buggy. Not a bribe.

Fair enough- the wording was concerning so I wanted to point it out

[Misdoubtful]

If I win we will ride our hogs up the stairs of the 1vory tower.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/69248

Isn’t there a rule against bribe coding?

Pretty sure this is just a joke about riding animals into admin land like it's a royal horse and buggy. Not a bribe.

Fair enough- the wording was concerning so I wanted to point it out

That being said for the pr, choosing to label the meat as pork STEAKS and not pork CHOPS is a big swing and a miss.

[kieth4]

If I win we will ride our hogs up the stairs of the 1vory tower.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/69248

Isn’t there a rule against bribe coding?

Pretty sure this is just a joke about riding animals into admin land like it's a royal horse and buggy. Not a bribe.

Fair enough- the wording was concerning so I wanted to point it out

That being said for the pr, choosing to label the meat as pork STEAKS and not pork CHOPS is a big swing and a miss.

HEY- TO BE FAIR I FORGOT PORK CHOPS EXISTED. IN THE ORIGINAL PR THAT I PORTED THEY WERE NAMED "PIG MEAT" SO I'VE MAD PROGRESS 'AIGHT?

[kieth4]

If I win we will ride our hogs up the stairs of the 1vory tower.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/69248

Isn’t there a rule against bribe coding?

Pretty sure this is just a joke about riding animals into admin land like it's a royal horse and buggy. Not a bribe.

Fair enough- the wording was concerning so I wanted to point it out

It was a joke, aye. There is no bribe here. I am adding pigs so I can do a hog rider gimmick completely unrelated to the admin election.

Here is a visualisation of my joke that a dear friend made, maybe it'll help you understand it better.

[sinfulbliss]

As long as purged silicons are antag-exclusive they should get antag-exclusive rights.
Purged used to be available to non antags, and thus needed to be kept in line - you're no longer allowed to purge an AI for no reason as a nonantagonist (or keep it purged) and so it makes sense to just make it into "do whatever you want" mode.

IMO this doesn't make sense. They have no laws but also lack an antag status, so it makes the most sense that this places them into just a neutral state like any other player with normal escalation rules.

[Omega_DarkPotato]

snip

IMO this doesn't make sense. They have no laws but also lack an antag status, so it makes the most sense that this places them into just a neutral state like any other player with normal escalation rules.

1) an AI gaining "antag status" currently is entirely law-based: if a traitor manages to finagle even a regular freeform law upload that causes the AI to begin killing, they're free to do so and may act like an antagonist in that manner. (Eg: "nobody on the station is human and are all actively committing human harm, revealing the existence of this law is human harm")

2) considering that only antagonists can purge an AI currently, it should be treated as any other antagonistic law added to an AI in my mind - if the only possible way for it to be (by the rules) added to an AI is by being an antag, surely it should also convey that antag status like any other antag-exclusive law.

[sinfulbliss]

snip

IMO this doesn't make sense. They have no laws but also lack an antag status, so it makes the most sense that this places them into just a neutral state like any other player with normal escalation rules.

1) an AI gaining "antag status" currently is entirely law-based: if a traitor manages to finagle even a regular freeform law upload that causes the AI to begin killing, they're free to do so and may act like an antagonist in that manner. (Eg: "nobody on the station is human and are all actively committing human harm, revealing the existence of this law is human harm")

Right, but consider the fact that AIs aren’t allowed to just kill nonhumans on ASIMOV. It wouldn’t be against their laws to do so, but where their laws fail escalation rules apply. Escalation rules only cease to apply when antag status is added into the picture - this is why borged traitors are allowed to grief nonhumans FNR.

2) considering that only antagonists can purge an AI currently, it should be treated as any other antagonistic law added to an AI in my mind - if the only possible way for it to be (by the rules) added to an AI is by being an antag, surely it should also convey that antag status like any other antag-exclusive law.

That doesn’t make sense to me. Just because only an antag can do it doesn’t mean it should suddenly create an unwritten rule that the AI can act like an antag. If antags want to make AIs help them kill people, they can simply one-human them and then order them to harm whoever they like, plasmaflood etc. This works because the AI’s lawset allows it.

This solution seems like a forced way of making purged have a use-case scenario because of the recent policy that nonantags can’t purge the AI, imo.

[spookuni]

pacifism bans will be the hot thing for a week until some shitter realizes they can just release plasma or space the station to get around it and then nobody will ever use them again

The fact that you can get job changes from the HoP to evade job bans and (if caught) have them escalated to a server ban doesn't make the concept of a lesser ban worthless. As I understand the proposal, the idea of pacifism bans is for borderline or good faith players who have repetitive issues with escalation, to enable administrative action against those players that is lesser and more targeted than a server ban - players demonstrating that they have no good faith and / or are actively griefing doesn't make the possibility of a lesser punishment worthless.

Personally I'm unconvinced either way, but I don't think the possibility of exploiting a weak punishment makes that punishment invalid, the majority of our playerbase plays in good faith, I don't think tools that potentially make it easier to prevent mistakes or punish minor infractions without entirely evicting people from the servers should be dismissed out of hand just because they can be subverted by bad faith actors.

[Misdoubtful]

pacifism bans will be the hot thing for a week until some shitter realizes they can just release plasma or space the station to get around it and then nobody will ever use them again

The fact that you can get job changes from the HoP to evade job bans and (if caught) have them escalated to a server ban doesn't make the concept of a lesser ban worthless. As I understand the proposal, the idea of pacifism bans is for borderline or good faith players who have repetitive issues with escalation, to enable administrative action against those players that is lesser and more targeted than a server ban - players demonstrating that they have no good faith and / or are actively griefing doesn't make the possibility of a lesser punishment worthless.

Personally I'm unconvinced either way, but I don't think the possibility of exploiting a weak punishment makes that punishment invalid, the majority of our playerbase plays in good faith, I don't tools that potentially make it easier to prevent mistakes or punish minor infractions without entirely evicting people from the servers should be dismissed out of hand just because they can be subverted by bad faith actors.

Bingo. If a tool will enable people to be better and work through their mistakes, its worthwhile to consider situationally.

There will always be those looking to subvert measures that are intended to help them, or the server, to be better.

People evade server bans, those are not without merit.

People evade job bans, those are not without merit.

People could evade pacifism bans, those wouldn't be without merit either.

[Super Aggro Crag]

who should i vote for

[Shadowflame909]

who should i vote for

oranges

[Super Aggro Crag]

who should i vote for

oranges

nah

[Mothblocks]

Iain is smart and extremely capable but probably doesn't have the spice you need to win a democratic election

I think they're a no brainer host vote choice for whoever's up next though--last I remember they're our most active admin across all servers behind Harricross, depending on the day

[Omega_DarkPotato]

Iain is smart and extremely capable but probably doesn't have the spice you need to win a democratic election

I think they're a no brainer host vote choice for whoever's up next though--last I remember they're our most active admin across all servers behind Harricross, depending on the day

iain's a gigachad and backbone to the team but his policy opinions are literally the centrist meme (as much as this sucks to hear i think youre great iain)

[Farquaar]

who should i vote for

Gupta

[san7890]

We are now ten seconds to midnight (le dog thread)

[Mothblocks]

Iain is smart and extremely capable but probably doesn't have the spice you need to win a democratic election

I think they're a no brainer host vote choice for whoever's up next though--last I remember they're our most active admin across all servers behind Harricross, depending on the day

iain's a gigachad and backbone to the team but his policy opinions are literally the centrist meme (as much as this sucks to hear i think youre great iain)

Yeah that's more or less what I mean

[Armhulen]

i just wanna say even if i said some harsh stuff, if that harshness is from the fact you took a risk and had a stance that you own, that's good on you. too many people this time around afraid to take risks and stand behind their actual plans, not just general overviews

[wesoda25]

Feel BAD man

[Jonathan Gupta]

Feel BAD man

no it feels great.

[wesoda25]

I will say no matter how much time passes I can’t shake the belief that platforms don’t matter, character does. Still fun to talk about the interesting ones tho :^)

[Mothblocks]

I will say no matter how much time passes I can’t shake the belief that platforms don’t matter, character does. Still fun to talk about the interesting ones tho :^)

Your belief is 100% correct, I've been arguing this for like 3 terms now.

I completed everything I was able to in the first like, two months. Most of it is policy discussions, ban appeals, and busy work.

[Armhulen]

I will say no matter how much time passes I can’t shake the belief that platforms don’t matter, character does. Still fun to talk about the interesting ones tho :^)

Which is why I'm glad Omega has really good ideas and character

[dragomagol]

This is a callout post for candidates who write huge unformatted chunks of text in their responses:

please my brain can't take it, I beg you to use paragraph breaks.....

[Rohen_Tahir]

This is a callout post for candidates who write huge unformatted chunks of text in their responses:

please my brain can't take it, I beg you to use paragraph breaks.....

[RaveRadbury]

Spotted in the Goofball Campaign thread

I'll vote for you if you don't talk over someone during the debate.

[Domitius]

MY HATS IN THE RING VOTE DOMITIUS 2022 AND WE ARE GOING TO HAVE A WILD FUCKING RIDE

[cybersaber101]

MY HATS IN THE RING VOTE DOMITIUS 2022 AND WE ARE GOING TO HAVE A WILD FUCKING RIDE

I don't think I can vote for someone with a Christmas avatar

[Domitius]

MY HATS IN THE RING VOTE DOMITIUS 2022 AND WE ARE GOING TO HAVE A WILD FUCKING RIDE

I don't think I can vote for someone with a Christmas avatar

CHECK AGAIN BUCKO

[cybersaber101]

MY HATS IN THE RING VOTE DOMITIUS 2022 AND WE ARE GOING TO HAVE A WILD FUCKING RIDE

I don't think I can vote for someone with a Christmas avatar

CHECK AGAIN BUCKO

YOU GOT MY VOTE THEN!

[cybersaber101]

rip election thread.

[Timberpoes]

Old boomer headmins started running and ruined it.

With all respect to them, I hope none of the past headmins win.

A fresh team of new blood and new ideas is good, and I personally don't want to see a term of status quo.

[Stickymayhem]

Old boomer headmins started running and ruined it.

With all respect to them, I hope none of the past headmins win.

A fresh team of new blood and new ideas is good, and I personally don't want to see a term of status quo.

hi ive never been headmin before pick me

[kieth4]

Old boomer headmins started running and ruined it.

With all respect to them, I hope none of the past headmins win.

A fresh team of new blood and new ideas is good, and I personally don't want to see a term of status quo.

hi ive never been headmin before pick me

If I somehow win I will make it a goal to return your game master.

[Armhulen]

Old boomer headmins started running and ruined it.

With all respect to them, I hope none of the past headmins win.

A fresh team of new blood and new ideas is good, and I personally don't want to see a term of status quo.

hi ive never been headmin before pick me

If I somehow win I will make it a goal to return your game master.

>he doesn't know

[mindstormy]

who should i vote for

Gupta

he's got my vote, we could use a shake up