[Vekter] Seth Deces - Security all security job ban

[Hoolny]

BYOND account: Hoolny
Character name: Seth Deces
Ban type: server
Ban length: 3 days
Ban reason: Banned from Roles: Head of Security, security, Warden, Detective, Security Officer for 3 days - Was assigned HoS at roundstart and promptly fucked off into space, leaving the station to descend into chaos. If you don't want to play command, we can fix that for you.

Time ban was placed: 2022-11-13 22:15:56
Server you were playing on when banned: Sybil
Round ID in which ban was placed: 194282
Why you think you should be unbanned: I find this to be sincerely ridiculous. I have never once had a note or a complaint of me as security that I can recall and I get a 3 day banned for going to space and dying to nothing of my own fault other than an issue of skill if

If I had known it was on the rules that every head of staff was not allowed to go out of the station I wouldn't have gone out of the station this wasn't a rule I was aware of also it was not in my intention to just fucked off into space I was gona be back with extra gear for security to deal with antags usually antags don't go loud the first 20 minutes anyways and I want to put this out to you also If I wasn't there there would probably wouldn't have being a HoS that round since there was a total of 2 security officers and 1 detective the lack of me in the station as a HoS do to dying did not have a very big impact on the station but that isn't the point.


Main point is please point at me where in the rules was I supposed to know I'm not allowed to leave the station as any head because this just seems like blatantly punish me for playing the game in a way that does not please you
'

References of good conduct: IM A GREAT HOS I would say so myself I kill antags I protect crew I do not waste crews time Im not one to let the station go into chaos I try to maintain order and in all honesty if its ruled that im not allowed to go out into space as HoS then I would stick to it and I don't really see a reason to ban me for this when this isn't something I would ever do again if it where to be stated here that by now by the rules any head that goes off the station will be banned for 3 days in every single job in their department if you agree to this then I'm fine with never going out of the station as HoS or any other head but I cannot accept being banned for something I wasn't aware of or had anyway to know of it.

[WineAllWine]

Main point is please point at me where in the rules was I supposed to know I'm not allowed to leave the station as any head because this just seems like blatantly punish me for playing the game in a way that does not please you

Relevant rule is:
5. Players in a head of staff, AI/Silicon role, or a team conversion role require a minimum amount of effort; generally considered to be not logging out at or near roundstart.

There is precedent for heads of staff being punished for leaving the station at roundstart

[Vekter]

Main point is please point at me where in the rules was I supposed to know I'm not allowed to leave the station as any head because this just seems like blatantly punish me for playing the game in a way that does not please you

Relevant rule is:
5. Players in a head of staff, AI/Silicon role, or a team conversion role require a minimum amount of effort; generally considered to be not logging out at or near roundstart.

There is precedent for heads of staff being punished for leaving the station at roundstart

Wine did my job for me. HoS' job is to coordinate Security's efforts to keep the peace and deal with antagonists. Leaving the station at roundstart does not facilitate this, even if you're looking for ~GAMER GEAR~ to help you kill more antags. If you really want more stuff from space, get the Curator to go look for it or conscript an Assistant to do it. You are too important to leave and not come back.

E: Someone brought up in the peanut that this should really be a command ban, not a sec ban. I'll change it to that.

[Hoolny]

That seems more reasonable and makes more sense but I don’t see the need to expand on the van further when this ban is about HoS and HoS only why get the other head roles mixed up seems to try to expand a ban for the sake of making this punishment harsher when it isn’t necessary as before this was extended to all of sec which made no sense and now it’s being changed so it makes more sense but I still see it as unnecessary

[Pandarsenic]

The number of filled sec roles affects how Dynamic handles Threat assignment because it assumes sec will be responding to antagonists.

[Hoolny]

Main point is please point at me where in the rules was I supposed to know I'm not allowed to leave the station as any head because this just seems like blatantly punish me for playing the game in a way that does not please you

Relevant rule is:
5. Players in a head of staff, AI/Silicon role, or a team conversion role require a minimum amount of effort; generally considered to be not logging out at or near roundstart.

There is precedent for heads of staff being punished for leaving the station at roundstart

I do not agree with this there is a difference between leaving on purpose as the round starts by OOC leaving that is obviously not allowed as tule 5 states but this is not me just leaving forever on purpose this is me playing the game and going to space as it’s a part of the game and I died which is also a normal part of the game sometimes you die this happens and when you die you can’t do your role I could have died in the station and this wouldn’t have being a problem since banning people for dying to no fault of their own is quite ridiculous this is why I see this ban as ridiculous I have had to go mining as HoP because there was no shaft miners and I died to a chasm and I didn’t get banned for that so how is the HoS any different.

I don’t think this is covered by Rule 5 I think tule 5 is meant mostly for people picking a head role and just leaving or suiciding round start this is a different scenario that isn’t translatable.

[Hoolny]

The number of filled sec roles affects how Dynamic handles Threat assignment because it assumes sec will be responding to antagonists.

By how much exactly no way I could know of this unless I sighed through code also for I can see there was only 2 round start antags which is extremely low

[Vekter]

Main point is please point at me where in the rules was I supposed to know I'm not allowed to leave the station as any head because this just seems like blatantly punish me for playing the game in a way that does not please you

Relevant rule is:
5. Players in a head of staff, AI/Silicon role, or a team conversion role require a minimum amount of effort; generally considered to be not logging out at or near roundstart.

There is precedent for heads of staff being punished for leaving the station at roundstart

I do not agree with this there is a difference between leaving on purpose as the round starts by OOC leaving that is obviously not allowed as tule 5 states but this is not me just leaving forever on purpose this is me playing the game and going to space as it’s a part of the game and I died which is also a normal part of the game sometimes you die this happens and when you die you can’t do your role I could have died in the station and this wouldn’t have being a problem since banning people for dying to no fault of their own is quite ridiculous this is why I see this ban as ridiculous I have had to go mining as HoP because there was no shaft miners and I died to a chasm and I didn’t get banned for that so how is the HoS any different.

I don’t think this is covered by Rule 5 I think tule 5 is meant mostly for people picking a head role and just leaving or suiciding round start this is a different scenario that isn’t translatable.

1) Whether or not you agree with the rules is irrelevant, this is how I have interpreted them. If you disagree, you can have a headmin look into it, but I can almost guarantee they will agree with me in this situation. There is a very large difference between a miner dying doing their job and a head of security actively ignoring their job to go explore space.

2) I am begging you to at least try and use some punctuation. Your posts are almost impossible to read.

[Hoolny]

My bad for my lack of punctuation, I'll try to do better at that.

Could you explain to me why it is necessary to do a full head ban and not just a ban for the role I was playing since this ban is entirely and solely related to that role and not any other role I have played

Also, are you supposed to interpret rules? aren't they supposed to be written down things

The rule in question being:
"Players in a head of staff, AI/Silicon role, or a team conversion role require a minimum amount of effort; generally considered to be not logging out at or near roundstart."

you are interpreting this rule into: Not leaving for space exploring at round start

1. This says round start so can I leave for space exploring mid round/ 30 minutes in?

2. This rule clearly states that head of staff require generally not to be logging out near roundstart

I did not logged out of the round we both recognize this you can't interpret things when there is no room for interpretation this is a solid statement telling head of staff to not log out near round start specifically not round start .

You said "If you don't want to play command, we can fix that for you."
I was playing command I was simply doing other duties to improve my general round as head of security I just happened to die during those duties as it happens and as Rule 10 states.

"Your character will frequently die, sometimes without even a possibility of avoiding it. Events will often be out of your control. No matter how good or prepared you are, sometimes you just lose."

I lost I died in space things went out of control while I was playing HoS this wasn't out of malice or me not wanting to play HoS this was just yet another person dying as it's natural in the game.

[Timberpoes]

To add a little bit extra nuance, allow me to explain more broadly the rule from a meta-level perspective as I understand it.

The rule isn't "don't log out at or near roundstart" - Else that would be the rule.

The rule is that we expect when you are a role important to round progression, you to put in a minimum effort to do your role.

In general, that's considered not logging out at or near roundstart. But it's not exhaustive or exclusive as a definition. You can still not put in a minimum effort to do your role without logging out at or near rondstart.

It's just that logging out at or near roundstart covers like 99% of the cases where admins deal with errant heads on LRP.

The other 1% are edge cases like going AFK without logging out, rolling a head role just to get gamer gear and go play another job, or going off to space for little or no reason without first having performed part of your expected role to some minimum standard.

[Hoolny]

To add a little bit extra nuance, allow me to explain more broadly the rule from a meta-level perspective as I understand it.

The rule isn't "don't log out at or near roundstart" - Else that would be the rule.

The rule is that we expect when you are a role important to round progression, you to put in a minimum effort to do your role.

In general, that's considered not logging out at or near roundstart. But it's not exhaustive or exclusive as a definition. You can still not put in a minimum effort to do your role without logging out at or near rondstart.

It's just that logging out at or near roundstart covers like 99% of the cases where admins deal with errant heads on LRP.

The other 1% are edge cases like going AFK without logging out, rolling a head role just to get gamer gear and go play another job, or going off to space for little or no reason without first having performed part of your expected role to some minimum standard.

well now we have to define what’s defined as a minimum amount of effort and I will say that going off into space to get gear to hunt enemies of the corporation is putting a lot of effort especially when I was actively fitting nanotrasen enemies such as the syndicate in space if we want to get on RP wise I was fitting station/nanotrasen enemies doing the job of nanotrasen security I’m sure nanotrasen would like if a security member was out there killing of syndie bases

[MooCow12]

Trying not to be peanut but what actually is the responsibility of HOS

For example, CE has the responsibility to set up the SM and they stay true to that and normally do.

But HOS players do not actually fill an informational / logistical role for the security team, at least not normally. Usually this is the responsibility of the Warden and this is what birthed the "warden out of brig" meme.

Another coordination tool that sec players tend to rely on is actually the AI itself.

Arming the sec team by opening the armory can be seen as a responsibility of the HOS but, again, usually by the time that is necessary the HOS is dead in maintenance from valid hunting and its up to the warden or someone else with access to open (Or the sec team just breaks in)

I just do not see an actual responsibility that Seth neglected to fulfill that most hos players do not also neglect to fulfill.

[WineAllWine]

well now we have to define what’s defined as a minimum amount of effort and I will say that going off into space to get gear to hunt enemies of the corporation is putting a lot of effort especially when I was actively fitting nanotrasen enemies such as the syndicate in space if we want to get on RP wise I was fitting station/nanotrasen enemies doing the job of nanotrasen security I’m sure nanotrasen would like if a security member was out there killing of syndie bases

No. we don't have to define things; The admins have to interpret things. In this case, what the minimum effort is.Interperting rules is a huge part of our job. And if you think an admin has mis-interpreted a rule, the next highest authority is the headmins, whom I am sure are already watching this thread

[Hoolny]

I would like this to be reviewed by the head admins also I would like an answer to MooCow since they do have a point with the general lack of actual duty as a HoS

[Vekter]

I would like to put forward that I don't see a single situation where the HoS leaves the station to go get gamer gear as an acceptable use of that position. There are other people who can do that for you, your value on the station is far too great to end up dead in hard vacuum somewhere.

Trying not to be peanut but what actually is the responsibility of HOS

For example, CE has the responsibility to set up the SM and they stay true to that and normally do.

But HOS players do not actually fill an informational / logistical role for the security team, at least not normally. Usually this is the responsibility of the Warden and this is what birthed the "warden out of brig" meme.

Another coordination tool that sec players tend to rely on is actually the AI itself.

Arming the sec team by opening the armory can be seen as a responsibility of the HOS but, again, usually by the time that is necessary the HOS is dead in maintenance from valid hunting and its up to the warden or someone else with access to open (Or the sec team just breaks in)

I just do not see an actual responsibility that Seth neglected to fulfill that most hos players do not also neglect to fulfill.

The HoS' intended job is to help coordinate security by assigning duties to sec officers and dealing with interrogations/major threats to the station. Many, many players take this to mean "actively hunting and killing antags", but I personally think that's not really something he should be directly involved in.

It is not, by any stretch of the imagination, to go get gamer gear for the rest of sec to use.

[spookuni]

We have no intention of overturning this.

Minimum requirement for command roles includes actually being present to engage in playing those roles, immediately leaving the station is functionally identical to a player going afk or logging out at roundstart, and is easily covered by the same precedents.