Guy joins with 3 admins and a player on and tries to play the game normally nut

[MrStonedOne]

Bottom post of the previous page:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=33212

[kieth4]

These are going to be my full thoughts typed out now that I've looked at all the logs.

They attempted interaction! They went up to the admins and were talking to them until they decided to just start...ignoring the player. Could they have not gone "you know what, let us finish our game then sure!" or something along those lines instead of going to full-out BLANK the person? The traitor In this scenario is fully in their right to retaliate antagonistically, they attempted to good faith convince them and speak to them which failed. The station is a shared space and not a private one so it was a cringe move by the admins playing and an entirely acceptable one by the player in my book.

Even looking at the above point, the admins that are spawned in should not be retaliating against the player regardless. They're not members of the round, they've spawned themselves in administratively for the sole purpose of doing something. What gives them the right to retaliate against a player (who's playing the game) when they're able to respawn themselves and spawn shit etc. If they wanted to play in private they have a whole private z level where no one would touch you! Clear cut case of admins abusing their powers because they don't want to interact with players in the round.

For those calling the player a "murderboner" and calling them "cringe" they were just doing objectives. If you want to be free from traitors and from objectives at all times you can boot up your own epic space station and play there with no tots. There should always be some semblance of worry, the idea shouldn't be pushed that "oh there are under 10 players which means this will be a completely safe shift for me to do whatever I want because the traitor will be friendly tee-hee!" In this case, the traitor ATTEMPTED to negotiate but there was little to no actual negotiation from the admins so they got clapped. If they came up wordlessly and killed the two admins, I'd agree that their actions were cringe. But that's simply not what happened. To quote the description of the game,

"Space Station 13 is a paranoia-laden round-based roleplaying game set against the backdrop of a nonsensical, metal death trap masquerading as a space station, with charming spritework designed to represent the sci-fi setting and its dangerous undertones. Have fun, and survive!"

Paranoia shouldn't just vanish because it's lowpop.

The D-chat is super disappointing. I'm not sure why the rest of the admins decided to dogpile the player with accusations of being an asshole. Especially seeing the admins abuse their powers and still have the gall to go "you're an asshole". Incredibly disappointing behaviour to see. No one challenged the admin who was abusing (despite the other admins(4) obviously witnessing it). Very saddening.

The player did absolutely nothing wrong, they were simply playing the game within all the rules and got abused for it. Very clear cut case for the headmins.

[wesoda25]

Hey there, cringe antag player in question here. So to explain myself a bit deeper to critics:
During the last interaction, I've pressed a bit harder on the two players in the holodeck, but nothing insulting, just an attempt to convince them. Of course they were against it. The whole time, I was totally split between doing the asshole move and leaving them alone. During the final part of the conversation, I was leaning a bit more to leave them alone and maybe test out antag gear or something. But the admin's final, rude remark have pushed me to the "Yep, gonna be asshole and gonna enjoy it!" so I took out X-4, put it on their doors and after explosion, tried to finish them off both.
The reason why I even bothered antagging was because I never reached Legendary tasks (except the Battlecruiser one but on a shuttle that was already going to CC) and wanted to try it out. I also never had Romerol in my hands so yea, I really wanted to try it.

Imo in the future you should have more respect for people’s rounds on lowpop. If there’s only like 5 people, you have to wonder whether zombies will really be fun or not. Especially if they’re just goofing off in a way that would be ruined by being killed/bombed/zombified.

Not that I think you committed some cardinal sin, though. I’ve lowpop murderboned before and didn’t think much of it in the moment. After killing like 2/3 of the 20 some people online I got killed and the person who did it ranted at my corpse about how much of a dick I was or whatever. I looked around as a ghost and it was just sort of sad, the round had pretty much ground to a halt to very little gain on my part. Knowing what a stereotypical anti admin attention whore assistant main I was at the time I kinda wonder if I might have doubled down if I'd been literally admin abused to put it to an end. Admins handled this horribly, I hope you can still learn something from it though.

[MooCow12]

The code did bad and made a situation that shouldnt exist, in turn the tot did bad because code said he could (which is 100% sanctioned), in turn the admins did worse because they thought lul pop murer bone and abused their administrative position.

As much as i want to jump on the admin / player hate bandwagon I think they should all just get a finger wag/warning, everyones already flamed them all enough to know they did bad, so now call it a code issue and fix that from there..


Well atleast I think they all know they did bad, the "i`ll do it again" thing i sure hope doesnt stick.

[Virescent]

Hey there, cringe antag player in question here. So to explain myself a bit deeper to critics:
During the last interaction, I've pressed a bit harder on the two players in the holodeck, but nothing insulting, just an attempt to convince them. Of course they were against it. The whole time, I was totally split between doing the asshole move and leaving them alone. During the final part of the conversation, I was leaning a bit more to leave them alone and maybe test out antag gear or something. But the admin's final, rude remark have pushed me to the "Yep, gonna be asshole and gonna enjoy it!" so I took out X-4, put it on their doors and after explosion, tried to finish them off both.
The reason why I even bothered antagging was because I never reached Legendary tasks (except the Battlecruiser one but on a shuttle that was already going to CC) and wanted to try it out. I also never had Romerol in my hands so yea, I really wanted to try it.

Imo in the future you should have more respect for people’s rounds on lowpop. If there’s only like 5 people, you have to wonder whether zombies will really be fun or not. Especially if they’re just goofing off in a way that would be ruined by being killed/bombed/zombified.

Not that I think you committed some cardinal sin, though. I’ve lowpop murderboned before and didn’t think much of it in the moment. After killing like 2/3 of the 20 some people online I got killed and the person who did it ranted at my corpse about how much of a dick I was or whatever. I looked around as a ghost and it was just sort of sad, the round had pretty much ground to a halt to very little gain on my part. Knowing what a stereotypical anti admin attention whore assistant main I was at the time I kinda wonder if I might have doubled down if I'd been literally admin abused to put it to an end. Admins handled this horribly, I hope you can still learn something from it though.

If I had no respect for their TGC, I wouldn't talk to them in the first place. I would just rush in, guns blazing and no questions asked. And since I was leaning more to leave them alone to the end before they decided to pull the rude behavior, I don't think I would've done the asshole move. But of course the rudeness made the decision clear to me. Throughout the round I murderboned one dude and that was because I wanted to avoid interfering with the two TGC admins in question. As you can see, I tried to avoid ruining their round. And even when left with no one to be an active zombie, I still would most likely not pull the easy asshole move. What pushed me to it was their response, which was a literal invitation to "Fuck us up"

[WineAllWine]

[snip]

Even looking at the above point, the admins that are spawned in should not be retaliating against the player regardless. They're not members of the round, they've spawned themselves in administratively for the sole purpose of doing something. What gives them the right to retaliate against a player (who's playing the game) when they're able to respawn themselves and spawn shit etc. If they wanted to play in private they have a whole private z level where no one would touch you! Clear cut case of admins abusing their powers because they don't want to interact with players in the round.
[snip]

They're ADMINS! there's so many better ways they could have handled this, Force zero threat if you really want to mess around in the holodeck, that would be vastly better than what happened here

[wesoda25]

I think it was a dick move but don't really care to argue it.

[Omega_DarkPotato]

Romerol at 5pop is lame but as long as you make an attempt to get the shuttle called immediately I'm willing to forgive it a bit

Really disappointed abt justice spawning in gamer gear then insulting the player :(
I get that TCG is new and fun and cool and super unique, but admins also have to follow rule 10 just as much as players do - sometimes you just die/shit goes south/the shift doesn't go as planned
take it on the nose or even just decide to forcecall the shuttle instead of specifically taking the "get owned, loser" route shown here

[Archie700]

In 2022, Bill Cosby, convicted of...bad shit, was ordered to be released from prison due to a Supreme Court ruling that the case should be declared a mistrial on a technicality. The technicality was that, during the course of the criminal trial, Bill's own self-incriminating testimony from a civil case earlier was used as evidence against him. However, that testimony was given with the condition from the District Attorney that he would not be charged over this testimony, given in a press release to the public. The Supreme Court ruled that the press release was binding and thus the condition was still in effect. Thus, by using the testimony as evidence, Bill's rights were violated and the original ruling and sentence was quashed.

He was immediately released.

Why is this pertinent?

Because it shows that procedure matters. Even if a player was found to be violating rules or be a bad apple, irregularities (using your admin powers to punish the player while you were personally involved as a player) can complicate or even cripple the actions taken entirely.

Admiral_awesome getting removed over posting a secret note against Jortymorty was a recent example. Krusvik getting into hot water over "bullying" Jackrrip is another one. Even if the players themselves was terrible (as Jackrrip proved to be later), those actions were viewed as terrible as fairness was violated in these incidents (the admins themselves were involved as players).

Had Micheala decided to fight the HoP herself with admin equipment and won, this would be less of an issue. Even if she lost and died, Iain0 would still be there to lecture the player on lowpop murderbone (at least that's what it looked like) and how it's usually frowned upon (NOT rulebreaking in itself, only when there's aggravating circumstances - repetitive, recalling or preventing shuttle from being called to murder more). The actions taken by Justice, Gwyn and Iain instead made this incident a hot mess.

[Itseasytosee2me]

There were better solutions to this from an administrative perspective off the dome that would probably had left this situation with everyone feeling better
-End the round (with or without an announcement from Nanotrasen or the Syndicate)
-Die, turn them into bread and then end the round
-If there are enough ghosts, summon an ERT, allow a battle to ensue, end the round.
-Die, bwoink them and say that its not really cool to murder so frivolously on lowpop, end the round.
-If you really want to lean into this "You aren't a crew member, but you spawned yourself in on the station as a plainclothes crewmember" thing. Act like some sort of supreme being ("dare a mortal interfere with a gods game?") Do some crazy admin fuckery (in a way that is CLEARLY admin fuckery so they understand) to scare them away or beat them up a bit. If they come back you have the precedent to smite them into oblivion.

Things not to do:
-Spawn in a super powerful weapon and kill them
-Quote rule 1 at a traitor
-Resort to insults in deadchat

I think there is room for improvement in justice's administrative conduct.

[Archie700]

I think there is room for improvement in thunder's administrative conduct.

>thunder
SEE ME AFTER CLASS

[Virescent]

There were better solutions to this from an administrative perspective off the dome that would probably had left this situation with everyone feeling better
-End the round (with or without an announcement from Nanotrasen or the Syndicate)
-Die, turn them into bread and then end the round
-If there are enough ghosts, summon an ERT, allow a battle to ensue, end the round.
-Die, bwoink them and say that its not really cool to murder so frivolously on lowpop, end the round.
-If you really want to lean into this "You aren't a crew member, but you spawned yourself in on the station as a plainclothes crewmember" thing. Act like some sort of supreme being ("dare a mortal interfere with a gods game?") Do some crazy admin fuckery (in a way that is CLEARLY admin fuckery so they understand) to scare them away or beat them up a bit. If they come back you have the precedent to smite them into oblivion.

Things not to do:
-Spawn in a super powerful weapon and kill them
-Quote rule 1 at a traitor
-Resort to insults in deadchat

I think there is room for improvement in thunder's administrative conduct.

Exactly. As I stated earlier, even something as little as a bwoink stating "This is an admin game, please do not interfere" would quickly convince me to avoid the area completely. And if they decided to fight it out fairly as ERT, DeathSquad or something? Hell yea, why not. Simply anything better than salt-spawning a one-shot weapon to kill me effortlessly and then insult me in dchat. Of course it could've been prevented if they weren't rude to the end.

[Itseasytosee2me]

I think there is room for improvement in thunder's administrative conduct.

>thunder
SEE ME AFTER CLASS

Motherfucker admins making their names 1 word nouns.

Sorry thunder you are a fine admin.

[Timberpoes]

Some of these are raw logs, leaking bits of asay. I'm going to use my executive discretion to post them here, because I think they help showcase a lot of what is troubling with this incident.

Reactively spawning a gun in because of a threat, while an antag is actively talking to you with words and stuff.

Spoiler:

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[2023-01-27 03:05:25.484] SAY: Virescent/(Anastasia Isaman) "I got romerool" (Recreation Area (64,111,2))
[2023-01-27 03:05:26.878] SAY: Virescent/(Anastasia Isaman) "Cmoon" (Recreation Area (64,111,2))
[2023-01-27 03:05:37.491] SAY: Starlord_Gwyn/(Gabrielle Quinn) "you can but then we'll just be zombie gamers." (Recreational Holodeck (59,110,2))
[2023-01-27 03:05:41.909] SAY: Justice12354/(Michaela Schroeder) "We need hands to play" (Recreational Holodeck (59,115,2))
[2023-01-27 03:05:43.906] SAY: Virescent/(Anastasia Isaman) "Actually" (Recreation Area (64,111,2))
[2023-01-27 03:05:45.552] SAY: Virescent/(Anastasia Isaman) "Good idea" (Recreation Area (64,111,2))
[2023-01-27 03:05:46.688] EMOTE: Virescent/(Anastasia Isaman) points at the holodeck projector floor (Recreation Area (64,111,2))
[2023-01-27 03:05:46.747] SAY: Justice12354/(Michaela Schroeder) "Zombies are bit..." (Recreational Holodeck (59,115,2))
[2023-01-27 03:05:46.894] EMOTE: Virescent/(Anastasia Isaman) points at the holodeck projector floor (Recreation Area (64,111,2))
[2023-01-27 03:05:47.139] EMOTE: Virescent/(Anastasia Isaman) points at the holodeck projector floor (Recreation Area (64,111,2))
[2023-01-27 03:05:48.045] SAY: Justice12354/(Michaela Schroeder) "Crippled" (Recreational Holodeck (59,115,2))
[2023-01-27 03:05:58.917] SAY: Virescent/(Anastasia Isaman) "Hmmm" (Recreation Area (64,111,2))
[2023-01-27 03:06:00.607] ADMIN: Starlord_Gwyn/(Gabrielle Quinn) checked the individual player panel for Virescent/(Anastasia Isaman) while in game.
[2023-01-27 03:06:02.054] SAY: Justice12354/(Michaela Schroeder) "I'm afraid that won't work" (Recreational Holodeck (59,115,2))
[2023-01-27 03:06:08.064] SAY: Virescent/(Anastasia Isaman) "I mean" (Recreation Area (64,111,2))
[2023-01-27 03:06:12.966] SAY: Virescent/(Anastasia Isaman) "I can still use dedly force" (Recreation Area (64,111,2))
[2023-01-27 03:06:14.503] SAY: Virescent/(Anastasia Isaman) "But eh" (Recreation Area (64,111,2))
[2023-01-27 03:06:23.358] SAY: Virescent/(Anastasia Isaman) "Fucking idea" (Recreation Area (64,111,2))
[2023-01-27 03:06:35.229] SAY: Starlord_Gwyn/(Gabrielle Quinn) "I wonder if we could add a smite that turns someone into a TGC card" (Recreational Holodeck (59,110,2))
[2023-01-27 03:06:36.899] ADMIN: Justice12354/(Michaela Schroeder) modified list's contents: ADDED=the tactical energy gun
[2023-01-27 03:06:41.625] EMOTE: Justice12354/(Michaela Schroeder) laughs. (Recreational Holodeck (59,115,2))

"Please make a complaint against me" ft. minor ASAY leaks, while sassing the player in dead chat.

Spoiler:

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[2023-01-27 03:13:38.484] GAME: Virescent/(Anastasia Isaman) Client Virescent/(Anastasia Isaman) has taken ownership of mob Anastasia Isaman(/mob/dead/observer) (Recreation Area (71,110,2))
[2023-01-27 03:13:40.099] SAY: Virescent/(Anastasia Isaman) (DEAD) "Wow" (Recreation Area (69,112,2))
[2023-01-27 03:13:45.384] SAY: Virescent/(Anastasia Isaman) (DEAD) "Really mature admin behivor" (Recreation Area (69,112,2))
[2023-01-27 03:13:46.766] ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: Justice12354/(Michaela Schroeder) "It was being fun" (Recreational Holodeck (60,111,2))
[2023-01-27 03:13:50.424] SAY: Virescent/(Anastasia Isaman) (DEAD) "Behavior even" (Recreation Area (69,112,2))
[2023-01-27 03:13:53.407] ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: Starlord_Gwyn/(Gabrielle Quinn) "cringe ass naenae" (Recreation Area (67,111,2))
[2023-01-27 03:13:54.467] ADMIN: DSAY: Justice12354/(Michaela Schroeder) "" (Recreational Holodeck (60,111,2))
[2023-01-27 03:13:55.361] SAY: Iain0/(Bob Stange) (DEAD) "congratulations, you were a dick for no reason" (Recreation Area (66,113,2))
[2023-01-27 03:14:01.835] ADMIN: DSAY: Justice12354/(Michaela Schroeder) "Please make a complaint against me" (Recreational Holodeck (60,111,2))
[2023-01-27 03:14:06.772] ADMIN: DSAY: Justice12354/(Michaela Schroeder) "I'd love to reply to that" (Recreational Holodeck (60,111,2))
[2023-01-27 03:14:12.277] SAY: Virescent/(Anastasia Isaman) (DEAD) "I wanted to make zombies" (Recreation Area (67,112,2))
[2023-01-27 03:14:15.567] ADMIN: DSAY: Justice12354/(Michaela Schroeder) "" (Recreational Holodeck (60,111,2))
[2023-01-27 03:14:19.385] SAY: Virescent/(Anastasia Isaman) (DEAD) "Whats So wrong about that" (Recreation Area (67,112,2))
[2023-01-27 03:14:22.610] ADMIN: DSAY: Justice12354/(Michaela Schroeder) "" (Recreational Holodeck (60,111,2))
[2023-01-27 03:14:28.935] ADMIN: DSAY: Justice12354/(Michaela Schroeder) "I literally told you the first time" (Recreational Holodeck (60,111,2))
[2023-01-27 03:14:37.536] SAY: Virescent/(Anastasia Isaman) (DEAD) "You were there as crew" (Recreation Area (67,112,2))
[2023-01-27 03:14:38.103] ADMIN: DSAY: Justice12354/(Michaela Schroeder) "Bombing Holodeck kinda ruined our game" (Recreational Holodeck (60,111,2))
[2023-01-27 03:14:40.110] ADMIN: DSAY: Justice12354/(Michaela Schroeder) "Just kinda" (Recreational Holodeck (60,111,2))
[2023-01-27 03:14:43.138] SAY: Starlord_Gwyn/(Gabrielle Quinn) (DEAD) "lmao make an admin complaint please" (Recreation Area (67,111,2))
[2023-01-27 03:14:48.279] ADMIN: DSAY: Justice12354/(Michaela Schroeder) "Yeah. And this crewmate had an energy gun" (Recreational Holodeck (60,111,2))
[2023-01-27 03:14:50.734] ADMIN: DSAY: Justice12354/(Michaela Schroeder) "Deal with it" (Recreational Holodeck (60,111,2))

Oh, yeah. By the way, shift had been going on for...

Spoiler:

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[2023-01-27 02:09:28.392] Starting up round ID 198982.
 - -------------------------
[2023-01-27 02:09:28.395] GAME: Round ID: 198982
[2023-01-27 03:14:01.835] ADMIN: DSAY: Justice12354/(Michaela Schroeder) "Please make a complaint against me" (Recreational Holodeck (60,111,2))

... about an hour at this point, adjusted for pre-shift-start waiting time.

What was the general view of ASAY after this?

Spoiler:

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[2023-01-27 03:19:07.305] ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: Starlord_Gwyn/(Gabrielle Quinn) "nah dw that complaint won't stick he fucked around and found out lmao" (Recreation Area (64,115,2))
[2023-01-27 03:21:50.263] ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: Starlord_Gwyn/(Gabrielle Quinn) "I really wanna see this admin complaint though lmao" (Transfer Centre (60,97,2))
[2023-01-27 03:21:53.792] ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: Justice12354/(Michaela Schroeder) "Same lol" (Recreational Holodeck (60,112,2))

Not what you'd hope it would be.

The admin team should be better than this.

An antag tried to do final objective stuff an hour into the shift and gets cucked by an admin spawning in a gun to protect their holodeck singleplayer game experience from that antag.
An antag found out that admins can be as obnoxious about their own game experience as any player, doubly so when backed by the power to spawn in guns.

Whatever the outcome of this complaint, I strongly urge certain admins to treat the players will less derision and animosity.

Admins are expendable, the game will still run without them. But without players, there is no game. Something we could all benefit to remember.

[Timberpoes]

As a side note important enough to doublepost, a big part of how our admin team works and how the players trust us is because there's an expectation we'll call out the bullshit of other admins when we see it.

When actions erode trust, every other admin that's just trying to be fair, honest, open and make spacemangames as fun as it can be is tarred with the same brush.

It makes our roles harder when we have to smash through a wall to reach back out with players again and earn the trust that we're wielding infinite cosmic powers for the benefit of them and the game as a whole.

[Kubisopplay]

Rude behavior being continuing to play cards instead of kowtowing towards the great opportunity of becoming zombie? Like come on, at least don't try to make up things.

[WineAllWine]

Me in this thread:

[2023-01-27 01:47:52.114] ADMIN: Iain0/(Bob Stange) pod-spawned /obj/item/food/popcorn at Recreational Holodeck (59,110,2)

[kieth4]

Rude behavior being continuing to play cards instead of kowtowing towards the great opportunity of becoming zombie? Like come on, at least don't try to make up things.

When someone is talking to you you could say something like, sorry. I'd like to continue this game please don't make me a zombie. If you start ignoring them them, yes ! It's rude.

Irl, when someone is talking to you if you start blanking them it's considered to be rude.

[kayozz]

Traitor gaming while 5 people are on is cringe

You say that - but I've had a discussion about this before and the admins at the time disagreed with your sentiments.
There's literally nothing in the rules that suggests a player cannot play the traitor role on low pop.

Also abusing your admin powers to kill a player is far more cringe than someone trying to play the game.

[iain0]

Line 2305: [2023-01-27 02:55:10.659] TRAITOR: Virescent/(Anastasia Isaman) missed /datum/traitor_objective/ultimate/romerol (Name: Spread the experimental bioterror agent Romerol by calling a droppod down at �Supermatter Engine, TC: 0, Progression: 0, Time of creation: 26732.5)

However, the final objective "Spread the experimental bioterror agent Romerol by calling a droppod down at Supermatter Engine" was completed!

Weird logs, I wonder what it means by "missed". I seem to remember it showed as skipped on their traitor panel too as I was looking to see if there were any related objectives to events. I guess it's just some oddity or bug and isn't really relevant but I get conflicting info from different sources. Regardless, the existence of romerol isn't really relevant, antags can antag with or without reason (on LRP)

I wasn't really following what was going on in the scene up until the holodeck exploded and the game was ended, which is a game they'd been playing out for some 20 minutes or so, and hence the whole thing just feels like a dick move. A perfectly valid move under the rules for sure, but still it ends up feeling more griefy than actually beneficial to anyone. Events after that progressed pretty quickly, and short of just ahealing the tot there isn't too much to be done by the time I'm caught up on events. Given the station is entirely depopulated at this point, with the only sentience being on Charlie station, I don't see much point, they're not getting to make a zombie horde anyway and the round is effectively ending as the shuttle has already been called.

Since there's some comment about raising the holodeck bombing as a ticket, had it been I wouldn't have taken any action, it's an IC issue getting bombed, antags can do questionably griefy things, and the scope for response as an admin character is "complicated" to the point that suiciding out here was probably the best bet, cut your losses. But all this is why I wouldn't pick the holodeck in the first place, I don't really care for the interactional implications of being on station. I'd still have told them it was a dick move at round end, in an unofficial capacity, I wouldn't have really called it murderboning though, firstly I didn't know the rest of the crews fate (turns out at least one died to space fish I think), but my implementation of low pop murderbone warnings depends on round time and shuttle call ; that is, if the round is approaching or past 90 minutes, and the shuttle is called and not going to be recalled (or ideally past the point of no return) then I'm fine with the station descending into carnage ; people lose 5-10 minutes of the round tops and all the antags get to play with their silly toys. I feel its a good middle ground / trade off on keeping the round and players generally healthy without entirely neutering things. Plus generally on a low pop round, by round end, more of the crew is traitor than isn't. Perhaps a hang over from my player attitude where dying towards the end of a round is pretty 'whatever', but dying 15 minutes in to an hour long round just kinda sucks (thanks revs!).

[2023-01-27 01:47:52.114] ADMIN: Iain0/(Bob Stange) pod-spawned /obj/item/food/popcorn at Recreational Holodeck (59,110,2)

Haha, I think that was the previous round where we half played a game which I conceeded (i was so screwed) when we ran out of time as round ended. I disarmed my character in that round and had my ID VVed open so i could rapid-delete it, because I just expect issue, and I'm not hugely comfortable with 'existing' IC as an admin. I had to re-arm myself later on when the space fish started to break in though, I don't mind / half expect to get done over by some other player but I'm not gonna take it from some npc fish (those things are terrifying now on low pop by the way, i kinda like it but have also intervened a bunch to save people / kill fish on very low pops)

[kayozz]

So I gotta ask, this thing is on the tg wiki

4. Lone antagonists can do whatever they want.

Except metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff, OOC in IC or IC in OOC, and spawn-camping arrivals.

So whats the real rule then since this one is apparently fake? I dont see anything bout lowpop murderbone in the precedents of both rule 1 and 4 so i am confused. Please tell me if i missed something
I also legitimately dont understand why you would get mad that someone interrupted your game with your admin buttbuddy. It is ss13. Why wouldnt you just not play ss13 and play a coop game if the idea of an actual fucking traitor killing you is so heinous. it is part of the fucking game. what the fuck is wrong with your administration

Yep, this is an issue it seems. Why punish the players for playing an option available to them? If the rules and mechanics allow you to play traitor on lone pop, then the players shouldn't be punished for playing it. There's no exceptions listed.
The admins abused their powers here. Simple as that.

If people have an issue with low pop traitors then either mention it in the rules, change the mechanics or change something. Admins shouldn't be absuing their powers, eroding trust and spawning guns, then mocking the person in deadchat. It's very unprofessional and creates a terrible standard.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

This seems like a pretty clear cut case of petty admin abuse, like when Bluespace spawned himself stamps during a round to help with his funny traitor strat a few years back. Not sure anything more than an apology needs to be made though.

[Turbonerd]

The player probably opened themselves up to getting banned by opening this complaint, they're an obvious bad faith player.

Banning them, or punishing them in any way for posting an admin complaint would set a terrible precedent.
Especially because the admin did do pretty much exactly what they're alleging.

Well, the admin doesn't seem to be very apologetic about it anyways.
ADMIN: DSAY: Justice12354/(Michaela Schroeder) "Will do it again and again" (Thunderdome Arena (172,52,1))

After reading this again, I retract my statement. Admins chose to deal with this in an uninformative and distracting way. The asay logs are pretty cringe. Hoping for someone to make a complaint is either hoping for someone to be unable to understand the situation so they can dunk on them publicly, or hoping they would make a complaint over an admin violation they know they are committing.

[Misdoubtful]

Well now that the cat is out of the bag and I don't have to pretend that the raw log stuff doesn't exist:

Fuck around and find out when people rack you over the coals for it.

This is TG, the server environment that exemplifies the greatest amount of accountability. Do people ever really think they will not be held accountable by the community and look terrible if they make these kinds of venomous choices? Everything that is said or done is auditable.

These are the sorts of things that just put the entire admin team to shame and make us all look bad. I really hope they have the integrity to own up to it.

[kayozz]

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=33016

Here's what I was referring to when I encountered a similar issue for daring to roll traitor on low pop.

But in this case, the admin sided with me and said I did nothing wrong. Rather than abusing their powers to check antag status and spawning in guns.

So yeah, if people are going to get punished/abused for playing low pop traitor, either the rules need to change, the mechanics need to change or more explanation is needed.
It's easy for people to say 'oh you shouldn't be playing antag on low pop', which doesn't cut it, since we're allowed to play and the rules/mechanics don't suggest anything else. And sometimes it's a good opportunity to play with the mechanics of antag without being chased down by valid hunters on med-high pop.

Admins have a lot of powers available to them and a lot of options. They could do their stuff on Centcom Z level or another server. But instead they took their frustrations out on a player who interrupted their meta-clique and broke the rules to punish said player.

[Timberpoes]

When you taunt players with the threat of making a complaint against you, you better be objectively righteous.

The last time I did that, was a Manuel shift where sec had secured a scrying orb and were using it to validhunt every antag. I spawned in a malf AI and because deadchat mentioned it, sec immediately went to the sat to card it before it had done ANYTHING.

So I had a choice. Bwoink sec for being validhunting fucksticks or give sec a challenge commensurate to their validhunting thirst.

I spawned in a nuke ops team. And a wizard. And probably a bunch of other antags, I was not being subtle about it.

Enough antags that Melbert immediately ghosted out of the shift with not wanting to play when he realised what I'd done. They trashed the station. A lot of the scrymeta'd antags that sec valid'd got picked up as wizard apprentices or nukies. They ran amok with a murderbone pass. The nukies won by playing Metal Gear Solid and avoiding the wizards long enough to arm the nuke.

It was glorious, I owned it and I told anyone that had a problem with my doing it to open up a complaint via OOC.

I was objectively righteous in my cause.

[wesoda25]

>massively derail round bc you dont like what security is doing

True greytide spirit right here

[Timberpoes]

Well now that cat is out of the bag and I don't have to pretend that the raw log stuff doesn't exist:
<snip>
Everything that is said or done is auditable.

I will post tickets of other admins, asay snippets of other admins, parts of notes and ban reasons. Anything that isn't private or personal information that is said in private and in genuine good-faith confidence of secrecy if I feel there's a public interest in doing so.

I have always considered it one of my responsibilities as an admin. I built a platform on trust and openness, then spent 6 months as headmin trying to hammer that as an accepted norm within the community.

As you said - it's all there. Recorded in our raw, unfiltered logs that any admin and any maintainer has access to.

Unhiding what is hidden when it serves a public interest purpose in being revealed is a hill I am content to one day die on.

[MooCow12]

I mean, i dont find that objectively righteous but its not that bad.

+Punished security for abusing scrying orb
+Gave people who died to scrying orb BS a second chance as mid round antagonists.

--Other players had to deal with the chaos and their rounds were ended by nukies that you spawned.

Net positive I...guess??? maybe not??

[rasonj]

ESH but traitors unlike admins are allowed to suck. Seems like a code/rule issue.

[Mice World]

When you taunt players with the threat of making a complaint against you, you better be objectively righteous.

Admins shouldn't be taunting players to open complaints at all, IMO. "I did what I thought was healthy for the round, if you disagree you're free to make an admin complaint." is fine, but "lmao please open an admin complaint I'd love to read that" is just egotistical. Acting with humility is an important of being an admin (epic worthless random player opinion) as it helps keep the players you interact with calm and allows you to grow as an admin. Spawning an ERT only weapon to kill a player is really bad but if the admin took the time to explain in d-chat why they thought the player was in the wrong instead of taunting them, it would've been a better experience for everyone.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

[Big ol' info dump snip]

Okay yeah I take back my defense of this. I'd initially thought that the "Get fucked" comment was likely a followup to the declaration of the attack made by Justice, but after seeing the rest of this, and some other information (like the Round Time indicating that this guy didn't just speedrun all of his objectives due to a Lack Of People To Stop Him), it's pretty clear which side the Bad Faith actually came from.

[Ziiro]

i dont see a problem with admin abusing someone whos being a nuisance when the pop is that low

pretty much. My only issue is like, do it in an interesting way or launder it through another party. Don't do it like this.

lol

Code: Select all

03:16:48	ADMIN	DSAY: Justice12354/(Michaela Schroeder) "Dude, u got 100h. I'm better than you, thx"	(167, 48, 1)	Thunderdome Arena

speed deadmin any% (TRIPLE DELUXE EDITION)

big yikes

edit: okay so after looking deeper the player is slightly less in the wrong than I initially thought and the admins are even worse than I initially thought, fucked up.

[Timberpoes]

Admins shouldn't be taunting players to open complaints at all, IMO. "I did what I thought was healthy for the round, if you disagree you're free to make an admin complaint." is fine, but "lmao please open an admin complaint I'd love to read that" is just egotistical. Acting with humility is an important of being an admin (epic worthless random player opinion) as it helps keep the players you interact with calm and allows you to grow as an admin. Spawning an ERT only weapon to kill a player is really bad but if the admin took the time to explain in d-chat why they thought the player was in the wrong instead of taunting them, it would've been a better experience for everyone.

We're still tgstation.

The roleplay doesn't end when you leave the game - it continues on the forums and in the wider community. The community loves the drama our more bombastic personalities impart on our server. It's fun.

The only thing better than an admin going "dare you to complaint me, I'll end your SS13 career in my reply" and being correct, is when they're NOT correct and it backfires on them in spectacular fashion. It's character building?

[kayozz]

The only thing better than an admin going "dare you to complaint me, I'll end your SS13 career in my reply" and being correct, is when they're NOT correct and it backfires on them in spectacular fashion. It's character building?

Do admins every get punished here? Every complaint I've seen, they get a slap on the wrist, the headmins make an excuse and they pretty much get away with shit, that a player would be perma-banned for.

[Misdoubtful]

Its very sad and tragic character building.

[kieth4]

The only thing better than an admin going "dare you to complaint me, I'll end your SS13 career in my reply" and being correct, is when they're NOT correct and it backfires on them in spectacular fashion. It's character building?

Do admins every get punished here? Every complaint I've seen, they get a slap on the wrist, the headmins make an excuse and they pretty much get away with shit, that a player would be perma-banned for.

Only when it's SUPER bad otherwise usually it's just a talking to.( As far as I've seen publically shown.)

[Ziiro]

The roleplay doesn't end when you leave the game - it continues on the forums and in the wider community. The community loves the drama our more bombastic personalities impart on our server. It's fun.

The only thing better than an admin going "dare you to complaint me, I'll end your SS13 career in my reply" and being correct, is when they're NOT correct and it backfires on them in spectacular fashion. It's character building?

100% agree on both of these. I play a round maybe once a week or every two weeks but I definitely check the players club every day because this shit is a goldmine.

Do admins every get punished here? Every complaint I've seen, they get a slap on the wrist, the headmins make an excuse and they pretty much get away with shit, that a player would be perma-banned for.

I'd have to trawl the successful admin complaints but I swear I've seen one or two instantly dumpstered before

Even if it's not instant deadmin I'd equate successful complaints to player notes - even if no single piece of conduct is bad enough for instant ban, there's something to be said for accumulation that causes people to step down

[Itseasytosee2me]

The only thing better than an admin going "dare you to complaint me, I'll end your SS13 career in my reply" and being correct, is when they're NOT correct and it backfires on them in spectacular fashion. It's character building?

Do admins every get punished here? Every complaint I've seen, they get a slap on the wrist, the headmins make an excuse and they pretty much get away with shit, that a player would be perma-banned for.

there have been a couple I've seen, but most of the time the admin was already held in low regard. I do await the results on this, it was a pretty big fuck up.

[Timberpoes]

Blatant and/or repeated admin conduct breaches usually result in demotions to straight deadmins.

Minor/accidental conduct breaches or just generally bad admin work like poor/lazy investigations leading to incorrect outcomes and any appeal that results in the appealer being unbanned and someone else being banned usually results in a 1-to-3 conversation between the admin and headmins.

The successful complains subforum is a good place to find these things. Staffing log also tends to distinguish deadmins and demotions from other things.

[Mice World]

We're still tgstation.

The roleplay doesn't end when you leave the game - it continues on the forums and in the wider community. The community loves the drama our more bombastic personalities impart on our server. It's fun.

The only thing better than an admin going "dare you to complaint me, I'll end your SS13 career in my reply" and being correct, is when they're NOT correct and it backfires on them in spectacular fashion. It's character building?

I think it's 100% acceptable if the topic of a complaint has already been brought up. An example would be:
Player: I'm going to report you mister shitmin!
Admin: Go ahead, I dare you.

But I don't think an admin should be bringing up complaints like this. What if the player never makes a valid complaint because they're afraid of being mocked?

Doing the badmin gag or acting bombastic is GOOD but admins shouldn't be treating complaints like a joke, even when they're in the right.

[Kubisopplay]

To be fair, there is a spot in conversation where you just stop trying to explain that you pushing one button doesnt mean you should give the player a wizard token, and you just tell them to complaint and shut up.

[Qbmax32]

lol

[Mice World]

To be fair, there is a spot in conversation where you just stop trying to explain that you pushing one button doesnt mean you should give the player a wizard token, and you just tell them to complaint and shut up.

As I said before, saying something like "I'm not giving you a wizard token just because I did x thing. If you don't like that, make a complaint." seems better.

I'm not trying to micro mod or tell the admins how they should administrate, this is all just my personal opinion. I just think that serious topics like ban appeals and admin complaints are best handled professionally.

[Qbmax32]

This seems like a pretty clear cut case of petty admin abuse, like when Bluespace spawned himself stamps during a round to help with his funny traitor strat a few years back. Not sure anything more than an apology needs to be made though.

didn’t sticky get briefly deadminned for spawning himself a stamp once too

[BeeSting12]

The only thing better than an admin going "dare you to complaint me, I'll end your SS13 career in my reply" and being correct, is when they're NOT correct and it backfires on them in spectacular fashion. It's character building?

Do admins every get punished here? Every complaint I've seen, they get a slap on the wrist, the headmins make an excuse and they pretty much get away with shit, that a player would be perma-banned for.

Yes. Read successful complaints, or scroll through the staffing log. Quite frankly, this is on-par with shit I've seen people instantly deadminned for.

Clear cut admin abuse and I feel like it's being muddied by people's personal feelings on what the player did. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE PLAYER DID. The admin spawned himself on the station to play a card game, something you could do on a private server or in the thunderdome. At this point, I'd argue he takes on the role of a player-admin since he's not running an event. It's one thing to spawn yourself for an event, but this is not an event, it's for the admin's own enjoyment. It is not okay for player admins to check people's player panels/traitor panel unless they're responding to a ticket.

It is definitely not okay for a player admin to spawn in a admin-only item to kill a player who is interrupting their card game for legitimate reasons. And then mock the player in dead chat. What the fuck man, I hope this is taken seriously because it reveals a lack of good judgement and understanding of admin conduct. Especially when a third admin is on who can handle the situation without any bias.

[Virescent]

When you taunt players with the threat of making a complaint against you, you better be objectively righteous.

Admins shouldn't be taunting players to open complaints at all, IMO. "I did what I thought was healthy for the round, if you disagree you're free to make an admin complaint." is fine, but "lmao please open an admin complaint I'd love to read that" is just egotistical. Acting with humility is an important of being an admin (epic worthless random player opinion) as it helps keep the players you interact with calm and allows you to grow as an admin. Spawning an ERT only weapon to kill a player is really bad but if the admin took the time to explain in d-chat why they thought the player was in the wrong instead of taunting them, it would've been a better experience for everyone.

Exactly. Spam me ERT to hunt me down, or even Deathsquad, and I'mma happy to have someone to be against (who doesn't use cheat one shot bullshit of course).

[dragomagol]

So I gotta ask, this thing is on the tg wiki

4. Lone antagonists can do whatever they want.

Except metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff, OOC in IC or IC in OOC, and spawn-camping arrivals.

So whats the real rule then since this one is apparently fake? I dont see anything bout lowpop murderbone in the precedents of both rule 1 and 4 so i am confused. Please tell me if i missed something

You did miss something, but it's in Headmin Rulings so that's not your fault. It links to:

We welcome admins to note lowpop murderbone at their discretion.

Repeated notes may result in bans.

Headmin Votes:
RaveRadbury: Yes
NamelessFairy: Yes
Dragomagol: Yes

As was discussed previously in this thread though, there's an argument for making it part of the main rules and perhaps expanding on it because it's somewhat unintuitive.

I retract my previous statement about this being a rulebreak, because it's less cut and dry; if the game is giving you objectives to kill, and taking those objectives is against the rules, then either the rules need to change or the code needs to change. The game shouldn't be misleading you into getting into hot water. It falls into that "lame but allowed" window that's not really the player's fault but they get flak for it anyway.

At least talking with your victims and having a reason to kill them gets you points in my book; I'd rather be killed in-game by a character and not someone who could be confused for a bot.

[Shellton(Mario)]

yeah deadmin, this shit is unacceptable. Plain and simple

I dont like saying to deadmin admins over mistakes but this is one of those times where its not a mistake.

[dragomagol]

Also a note, that ruling was made before progression traitors was PR'd or merged.

[kayozz]

Clear cut admin abuse and I feel like it's being muddied by people's personal feelings on what the player did. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE PLAYER DID. The admin spawned himself on the station to play a card game, something you could do on a private server or in the thunderdome. At this point, I'd argue he takes on the role of a player-admin since he's not running an event. It's one thing to spawn yourself for an event, but this is not an event, it's for the admin's own enjoyment. It is not okay for player admins to check people's player panels/traitor panel unless they're responding to a ticket.

It is definitely not okay for a player admin to spawn in a admin-only item to kill a player who is interrupting their card game for legitimate reasons. And then mock the player in dead chat. What the fuck man, I hope this is taken seriously because it reveals a lack of good judgement and understanding of admin conduct. Especially when a third admin is on who can handle the situation without any bias.

Fully agree. I hope the admins get removed or demoted. Anything less than a demotion to the offending admins is an insult to the playerbase. Clear cut admin abuse.

[Drag]

You know, I can make some really dumb calls in hindsight but at least I try to stay good intentioned in the end. I don't think Justice can say the same in this situation which makes me sad.


World is a fuck