Guy joins with 3 admins and a player on and tries to play the game normally nut

[MrStonedOne]

Bottom post of the previous page:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=33212

[Qbmax32]

200th post get

[Redrover1760]

annoying question time: wtf do you do here? from their prospective they tried to play the game normally and got admin'ed, but it was a like 5 pop round they were trying zombies on (like, come on man), but also justice was spawned in as an human from a round start observer (but also its 5 pop so meh), and also the admins on were playing tcg in the holodeck i think?. and also i don't think prog tot handles this kind of pop level anywhere nearly as well as tot could just by giving you freedom to fit your plan to the round.

Yet another symptom of prog tot, making people so focused about objectives that they do them in a checklist instead of trying to have fun with the round. Even if its only a 5 pop round.

[iain0]

If the player had not complained, would this be on the headmin's plate right now?

Spent a while undecided on replying to this. It's a very good question, perhaps personally the best question, and I had asked myself it before you raised it.

On the other hand, peanut thread is unlikely to care about any answer other than "no" and writing pages trying to explain points of view doesn't tend to suit peanuts (see above posts about putting words in my mouth for example). Ultimately I don't think I can give an objective answer. I will (and did) reprocess things a lot in my downtime ; overnight and the next day, which is how I end up asking myself this question in the first place. I'm a very introspective person and spend more time than I should analysing myself and my choices. I never had to face that question squarely, because the complaint was up before I went to bed, and in the round because I felt sure it was going to complaint and absolutely did not share the "vocalised confidence" shown by the other admins, and I can't really put myself into that frame of mind of facing that question because I never got there before the (expected) complaint took place. Might even take a day for me to realise they were not actually going to complain as they may have chosen to write it next day rather than late at night. Though I would likely have started speculating about 'what if they dont' by then at least. Never got that far.

I'll say what I see: I am 100% positive that if the complaint wasn't made, you wouldn't have reported it and Gwyn wouldn't have reported it. There was absolutely no indication at all from deadchat or ASAY or anything that you even thought what Justice12354 did was an issue!

The closest you will get here is how quickly I distance myself from the conversation, not participating beyond the initial interaction, because the dead chat is perhaps, at the time, the first time things are obviously scuffed (see later), but I'd probably have remained more vocal if I didn't have any issues with what was going on. I regret staying involved as long as I did and the comment about fair fights / admin fights / god fights is just dumb timing, its a topic that interested my brain generally so I splurged that, it is however pretty inappropriate timing and no-one there cares about my muses (which are somewhere in a previous post here, which also likely no-one really cares about!)

And in terms of actions to take, hindsight and time to think helps a lot with this, for example, a more concrete example of taking action would be training a candidate who randomly starts deleting people and how one would react to that, in order - yell STOP in asay, deadmin if necessary, fix up the broken people, chat to the admin to try work out why/what happened (there's one mistake that comes to mind that could result in acidental deletions), and based on conclusions either a trainerbus ping to headmins that there had been an oopsie might be enough, through to full on server level admin ban if the player shouldn't even be given adminobs after this point and instant headmin batcave (or whatever they're called nowadays). The candidate is my direct responsibility and I need to handle those things as if I had done them myself, since I'm enabling it by proxy and by the very virtue of the job. Watching a full admin go increasingly off the rails is a bit different.

At the time, actions are very limited particularly with no idea whats coming next. I've already noted I wouldn't even fire the disabler, I'd just gib out if I were in that situation. I also already mentioned I was reluctant at the idea of people playing on the holodeck (can be evidenced perhaps from previous rounds but be hard to dig back up at this point), and this is my brain "overanalysing" possible paths and interactions, I always saw the issue of player interaction as being undesirable on the holodeck, and similarly even firing the disabler just doesn't take things down paths that can go anywhere good. That said, in and of its self, the disabler isn't a problem, some people have posted suggestions on "what could have happened next", its dubious ground but... I have no idea what they plan to do, and even when they attack them with the ... i've always assumed captains saber that they dropped? ... the window for things 'ending well' is narrowing but not entirely gone. like is two hits then gibself and aheal tot a problem? Remembering this is a zero pop station after these events. It's pretty dubious and could still make for a complicated admin complaint. Or maybe if dead chat conversation went more around "sorry, i shouldn't have done that" *revive* perhaps the player would have accepted it (not that this really makes that okay). The whole thing is a "heat of the moment" thing I guess, which I've never seen from Justice before, but the dead chat quickly gets very heated and it's quickly obvious any kind of de-escalation isn't going to be the outcome. The closest I get to actual action is trying to figure out if or how I get dead chat to stop fighting, though at the same time there's no-one else around, i'm mostly wondering how exactly I would go about asking people to drop it and save it for the forums when I've already gotten more involved with the conversation than I would have wanted to. And all in all this never comes to anything, the whole series of events start to end lasts 6 minutes and the player logs out. Thoughts about IC revivals or anything don't really come up due to the dead chat stuff (not like spontaneous force reviving them is a good approach here, suddenly taking them out of dead chat) and the disconnect, I pay some attention to the round health overall, station's dead, 1 charlie player to let the round finish for, but IC is not really a high priority on a one pop station versus the bigger issues.

The whole station setup does play into that too, being so low pop the game doesn't make so much sense. I already talked about possibly scapegoating myself in to get romeroled if thats what they needed - this is an act that on any higher populations would be unacceptable admin conduct in its its self, but once the pop's at the level the station can't even properly operate and needs help with basics like power and materials from time to time things are a bit more ... relaxed, and at a 1 pop station well, revive em, give em romerol targets, mark their thing of as complete because they simply could have completed it easily enough were it possible, give em the green text and bonus TC even because none of it really matters, there's no-one else on the station who will care or be impacted by anything that happens. The player can be revived and carry on doing ... nothing, at any point. IC is just largely scuffed and dead chat quickly makes it irrelevant.

I will also say that much as its just as much a black and white rule break, there's a difference between being antag/anti-antag and readminning to spawn yourself in a weapon on a high pop round / delete a door / whatever people have historically done, versus killing one player in what is probably more a case of 'rage' than anything (further borne out by the aggressive dead chat, which then enrages the player further), the spawning in of the weapon its self is ... debatable? though I did spawn myself in one the previous round to shoot space fish, its more the lack of control exerted thats the issue, it's all very "heat of the moment" and its kind of a different problem to outright cheating in a round. Doesn't make it any better honestly, as an admin you can't afford to become that emotionally attached to things. Closest I ever got was when I was a couple of months in and someone had trashed a party a few low pop players were having, and I PMed someone with 'why?'. Even before they replied I knew I'd fucked up and I didn't get to have that attachment or care about what happens. They explained their hypno state and directives, which I already knew, and I quickly apologised my way out of the ticket. Felt guilty about that for some time and maybe learned a lesson along the way. So long ago now. Detachment from things as an admin is just a necessity, and losing that is dangerous in a different way to actual cheating.

[Annihilite111]

"It's not cheating if you do it cause you're angry"

I don't get it. If Ivan Ruskovic loses in CS:Source and whips out the aimbot, is that not cheating because he was angry?

[iain0]

"It's not cheating if you do it cause you're angry"

I don't get it. If Ivan Ruskovic loses in CS:Source and whips out the aimbot, is that not cheating because he was angry?

Their entire existence is 'cheating'. From the moment they exist on the holodeck. The issue is the events at that point.

[Bawhoppennn]

Mental gymnastics: the peanut thread

[WineAllWine]

End result is good I think. Thanks, Headmins!

[Timberpoes]

I think the most fair overall outcome.

Justice has played that treadmill before and a refresher on administration 101 will do them good.

Gwyn didn't need to drop their ass back to trial for more training (the difference between trial and full admin is pretty much nothing) but volunteering it shows a good attitude to improvement and most importantly personal accountability.

I don't expect any problems with Gwyn either.

Moments like this are a valuable one-time lesson and second chances are free. Glad to see the experience wasn't wasted with a deadminning and we could recover everyone from it.

[BeeSting12]

I agree, pretty fair outcome

[wesoda25]

End result is good I think. Thanks, Headmins!