Level of knowledge
- delaron
- In-Game Admin
- Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 9:44 pm
- Byond Username: Delaron
Level of knowledge
So how much knowledge about how magic spells work does the crew have?
I ask because I recently failed a wizard round hard because I mind swapped with the captain and there was a clown observing. He immediately goes and bashed my head in (while im in the captain) before either of us come to.
Is this legit knowledge or borderline metagaming? I not salty that I died 5 min into round since I was mistaken about the idea that improving mindswap a couple times would reduce knockout time. I am a little shocked that the first response to the captain and another dude in wizard costume falling down is to brutally kill the captain with a fire extinguisher.
If thats the way the server roles cool. It just makes it harder in my mind to enforce not meta gaming the hot spot locations for nuke ops or knowing someone is a blob by following them into a remote area of maintenance.
I ask because I recently failed a wizard round hard because I mind swapped with the captain and there was a clown observing. He immediately goes and bashed my head in (while im in the captain) before either of us come to.
Is this legit knowledge or borderline metagaming? I not salty that I died 5 min into round since I was mistaken about the idea that improving mindswap a couple times would reduce knockout time. I am a little shocked that the first response to the captain and another dude in wizard costume falling down is to brutally kill the captain with a fire extinguisher.
If thats the way the server roles cool. It just makes it harder in my mind to enforce not meta gaming the hot spot locations for nuke ops or knowing someone is a blob by following them into a remote area of maintenance.
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I'm not smart enough to meme.
I'm not smart enough to meme.
- delaron
- In-Game Admin
- Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 9:44 pm
- Byond Username: Delaron
Re: Level of knowledge
and before its said.
I know I need to get better...
Sorry for trying something different than global spawn or jaunt + enath
I know I need to get better...
Sorry for trying something different than global spawn or jaunt + enath
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I'm not smart enough to meme.
I'm not smart enough to meme.
- Steelpoint
- Github User
- Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:37 pm
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- Github Username: Steelpoint
- Location: The Armoury
Re: Level of knowledge
Currently there's no real rule on what exactly the crew can know about antagonists and their powers.
On mind swap, it is a extremely risky spell and using it in a public corridor with people to witness it will usually end in your described scenario.
On mind swap, it is a extremely risky spell and using it in a public corridor with people to witness it will usually end in your described scenario.
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Re: Level of knowledge
we're not bay
players can know just about anything and use it in game, outside of information on the current round happenings
players can know just about anything and use it in game, outside of information on the current round happenings
dezzmont wrote:I am one of sawrge's alt accounts
dezzmont wrote:sawrge has it right.
Connor wrote:miggles is correct though
- Ikarrus
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Re: Level of knowledge
We allow players to know what Nanotrasen's enemies are and generally what they are capable of including, to a reasonable extent, their abilities.
For example, you know changelings are horrible monsters that can inject all sorts of toxins into you, that they can regenrate and shapeshift, and they usually come in groups.
What we shouldn't allow is knowing some of the more granular details, like exactly how much damage an armblade deals and use that to determine who is under attack by a changeling through the crew monitor. Or calculating the current station population to determine the exact number of antagonists at any given time.
We're actually really lax about this. You can know just about everything about an antagonist. As long as it doesn't go full autism mode into behind-the-scenes game code.
For example, you know changelings are horrible monsters that can inject all sorts of toxins into you, that they can regenrate and shapeshift, and they usually come in groups.
What we shouldn't allow is knowing some of the more granular details, like exactly how much damage an armblade deals and use that to determine who is under attack by a changeling through the crew monitor. Or calculating the current station population to determine the exact number of antagonists at any given time.
We're actually really lax about this. You can know just about everything about an antagonist. As long as it doesn't go full autism mode into behind-the-scenes game code.
Former Dev/Headmin
Who is this guy?
Who is this guy?
- delaron
- In-Game Admin
- Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 9:44 pm
- Byond Username: Delaron
Re: Level of knowledge
Fair enough again just checking because its a slippery slope but if thats the call cool.
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I'm not smart enough to meme.
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- Joined: Fri May 02, 2014 3:01 am
- Byond Username: Incomptinence
Re: Level of knowledge
Mind swap is absurdly powerful just be sure to be alone with your target next time, if only for a few seconds which is all you need.
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Re: Level of knowledge
IIRC, one of the other non-kosher bits of knowledge are the possible locations for the syndicate shuttle to land.
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- Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:21 pm
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Re: Level of knowledge
beequeen is correct.
It's also worth pointing out that you are perfectly allowed to RP not knowing the details of enemies, etc.
It's also worth pointing out that you are perfectly allowed to RP not knowing the details of enemies, etc.
- DemonFiren
- Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:15 pm
- Byond Username: DemonFiren
Re: Level of knowledge
Isn't the clown's clumsiness a genetics issue, anyway, or am I just mistaken again?
- RG4
- Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:19 am
- Byond Username: RG4ORDR
Re: Level of knowledge
Traitor clowns are clean SE'd there for are able to shoot guns.DemonFiren wrote:Isn't the clown's clumsiness a genetics issue, anyway, or am I just mistaken again?
- Screemonster
- Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 7:23 pm
- Byond Username: Scree
Re: Level of knowledge
If they shoot themselves in the face, it means they're not a witch traitor!
Fantastic.
Fantastic.
- Loonikus
- Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:20 am
- Byond Username: Loonicus
Re: Level of knowledge
Theres a big difference between knowing what a changling is and knowing exactly what they do, how they do it, and killing someone on the spot because you think they could be a changling.
I used to prick people I didn't like IC with pens all the time, just to watch them scream down the hall screaming "SMITY IS A LING!!!" over the radio.
I used to prick people I didn't like IC with pens all the time, just to watch them scream down the hall screaming "SMITY IS A LING!!!" over the radio.
- DemonFiren
- Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:15 pm
- Byond Username: DemonFiren
Re: Level of knowledge
Honestly, if we know exactly what tools a traitor has at their disposal, then why shouldn't we know what mutation a changeling can develop?
If I'm alone with one person in a sealed room, notice nothing and suddenly can't talk and am freezing, should I feign ignorance?
If I'm alone with one person in a sealed room, notice nothing and suddenly can't talk and am freezing, should I feign ignorance?
- Saegrimr
- Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:39 pm
- Byond Username: Saegrimr
Re: Level of knowledge
I think the problem is the "tiny prick" message doesn't even show up for anything sting-related anymore. I think a failed transformation sting still shows it, if I read the code right. I'm not certain.
Either way its like doing the old maintenance mario kart to hit all the good loot. You're meta-ing a concept that doesn't exist anymore.
Either way its like doing the old maintenance mario kart to hit all the good loot. You're meta-ing a concept that doesn't exist anymore.
tedward1337 wrote:Sae is like the racist grandad who everyone laughs at for being racist, but deep down we all know he's right.
- DemonFiren
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- Saegrimr
- Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:39 pm
- Byond Username: Saegrimr
Re: Level of knowledge
I'm sure most of the long-time assistant players had a route planned in order to grab all the static spawning loot that used to be in maint before it got randomized. I know I had one. It was like roundstart mario kart trying to grab em before the other greyshits did.
tedward1337 wrote:Sae is like the racist grandad who everyone laughs at for being racist, but deep down we all know he's right.
Re: Level of knowledge
Yeah but it wasn't just "You feel a tiny prick", it was "You follow a tiny prick" followed by a message about feeling sluggish.Loonikus wrote:Theres a big difference between knowing what a changling is and knowing exactly what they do, how they do it, and killing someone on the spot because you think they could be a changling.
I used to prick people I didn't like IC with pens all the time, just to watch them scream down the hall screaming "SMITY IS A LING!!!" over the radio.
If that doesn't sound like a ling has just injected you with some debuff sting I don't know what does.
Looking at the code though it looks like the sluggish message comes from the hunger system, so them getting the message right after being injected is just bad timing
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- Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:21 pm
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Re: Level of knowledge
In response to the clown thing, it's not 100% that the clown will shoot themselves. I personally think testing the clown for clumsiness (let's say, making him shoot a stun gun a bunch of times) is shitty as fuck. It also doesn't even make sense from a practical stand point, as if you are promoting a clown to security you almost WANT them to be a traitor, so that way they don't get stripped the moment they try to arrest someone and end up getting stunned by themselves in the middle of the hallway.
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- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:24 pm
- Byond Username: Aurx
Re: Level of knowledge
Hijacking this thread:
Can we arrest people who metagame like that on the grounds that they're clearly in contact with the [syndies/lings/cult/vampires/wizards/blobs/etc]?
Can we arrest people who metagame like that on the grounds that they're clearly in contact with the [syndies/lings/cult/vampires/wizards/blobs/etc]?
Head admin, /vg/station
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POMF FOR HEADMIN
- Screemonster
- Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 7:23 pm
- Byond Username: Scree
Re: Level of knowledge
I think Bay has "suspicious conduct" in spesslaw for that sort of thing.Aurx wrote:Hijacking this thread:
Can we arrest people who metagame like that on the grounds that they're clearly in contact with the [syndies/lings/cult/vampires/wizards/blobs/etc]?
- Loonikus
- Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:20 am
- Byond Username: Loonicus
Re: Level of knowledge
I'd ask the HoS or lawyer about it first but after that sure, I could see throwing them in the interrogation room with the detective for a while. It makes sense from an IC perspective to be suspicious of someone who seems to know very specific details about cults/the syndicate etc. etc.Aurx wrote:Hijacking this thread:
Can we arrest people who metagame like that on the grounds that they're clearly in contact with the [syndies/lings/cult/vampires/wizards/blobs/etc]?
- Ikarrus
- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:17 am
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Re: Level of knowledge
Hah, I've seen this happen before and it was hilarious. They didn't get brigged, though, just stuffed into interrogation and probed a bit. He was stubborn, but it was still entertaining to watch.Aurx wrote:Hijacking this thread:
Can we arrest people who metagame like that on the grounds that they're clearly in contact with the [syndies/lings/cult/vampires/wizards/blobs/etc]?
So I'm going to say okay if it was long these lines.
Former Dev/Headmin
Who is this guy?
Who is this guy?
Re: Level of knowledge
Clowns (well actually the Clumsiness mutation) will cause:QuartzCrystal wrote:In response to the clown thing, it's not 100% that the clown will shoot themselves. I personally think testing the clown for clumsiness (let's say, making him shoot a stun gun a bunch of times) is shitty as fuck. It also doesn't even make sense from a practical stand point, as if you are promoting a clown to security you almost WANT them to be a traitor, so that way they don't get stripped the moment they try to arrest someone and end up getting stunned by themselves in the middle of the hallway.
-Guns to explode in your hands when fired
-You to stun baton yourself
-Flash yourself
-Cuff yourself
Can't remember if theres any RNG on this.
I also do remember there was atleast one clown that abused this 'disadvantage' by breaking into the armory and exploding all of security's guns.
- RandomMarine
- Github User
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- Github Username: RandomMarine
Re: Level of knowledge
I believe it's worth noting that any non-antag clown can take a little mutadone or grab a clean SE to remove their clumsiness. Powergaming? Likely. But lack of clumsiness should never be taken as evidence of antag status.
- peoplearestrange
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:02 pm
- Byond Username: Peoplearestrange
- Location: UK
Re: Level of knowledge
Little harsh, it's not an act its genuinely what I thought was the case from hearing some time back.Its never really been made clear and my mistake if I am wrong, given what Ikarrus has said.Violaceus wrote:Attention!!!¡
Can you admins please educate trialmins that we are actually on /tg/station and not Baystation...
Just look at this:
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2844
Both vekter and peoplearestrange act like crew have no right to know about antagonists.
Also slightly out of context post given that the ban wasn't really around meta/powergaming but the fact they right out killed someone.
Annnnnnnnnnnyway.
Be nice if there was some clarification on this. My personal ten cents would be that a little meta knowledge is fine, but true powermeta is just too far (like the old thing where people would call the shuttle out round start to see if it would be returned to check if it was a rev round etc).
Whatever
Spoiler:
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- Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:07 pm
- Byond Username: Dezzmont
Re: Level of knowledge
A good policy to have is "Anything someone could observe from the game world is kosher" where as knowing things based around a mechanical limitation of the game, something no one could ever see in the universe, is not ok.
That means knowing what spells do is fine, because a person could see the spell happen and notice the effects and thus the knowledge could exist. Even though it means you ultimately understand a game mechanic that is fine.
Contrasted to that is the idea that looking at the shuttle spawn points isn't ok because it isn't something you should be able to observe in universe, it exists purely as a mechanic rather than something that exists in the world. Same with knowing that some aliens are reincarnations of crew members and thus have certain knowledge, or knowing that the shuttle auto-recalls in response to certain round types.
That means knowing what spells do is fine, because a person could see the spell happen and notice the effects and thus the knowledge could exist. Even though it means you ultimately understand a game mechanic that is fine.
Contrasted to that is the idea that looking at the shuttle spawn points isn't ok because it isn't something you should be able to observe in universe, it exists purely as a mechanic rather than something that exists in the world. Same with knowing that some aliens are reincarnations of crew members and thus have certain knowledge, or knowing that the shuttle auto-recalls in response to certain round types.
- Comrade Leo
- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:56 pm
- Byond Username: ComradeLeo
Re: Level of knowledge
On the topic of level of knowledge and it's meta use.
Intentionally moving or otherwise objects to prevent sabotage/or capture.
This came up last night in a basil round, an engineer (who coincidentally was a antag so it's not a example of real meta) used the excuse of moving parts of the engine away and hiding them, to prevent sabotage (unbeknownst to us, to complete his nefarious plot which backfired on him). However I've seen this been done before by non-antags. Is it ok for someone to hide parts of the engine, and wire solars based solely on the reason that the engine will be sabotaged - despite no tators being acknowledged in the round?
In tandem is it ok for example, for the Chief Engineer to say, move his station blueprints (a tator objective) and hide them in a place nobody will ever find (except by sheer luck) or move it to a different z-level where probability of it being found is almost zero, based solely on the reasoning that the blueprints are a tator objective and hiding them will prevent greentext?
Intentionally moving or otherwise objects to prevent sabotage/or capture.
This came up last night in a basil round, an engineer (who coincidentally was a antag so it's not a example of real meta) used the excuse of moving parts of the engine away and hiding them, to prevent sabotage (unbeknownst to us, to complete his nefarious plot which backfired on him). However I've seen this been done before by non-antags. Is it ok for someone to hide parts of the engine, and wire solars based solely on the reason that the engine will be sabotaged - despite no tators being acknowledged in the round?
In tandem is it ok for example, for the Chief Engineer to say, move his station blueprints (a tator objective) and hide them in a place nobody will ever find (except by sheer luck) or move it to a different z-level where probability of it being found is almost zero, based solely on the reasoning that the blueprints are a tator objective and hiding them will prevent greentext?
- Ikarrus
- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:17 am
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Re: Level of knowledge
They are both high value items that have actual significance beyond being a potential objective. Hiding either of them just because they're valuable would cross the line imo. One example I can think of is a CE building a space vault just to hold their blueprints, going out of their way just to fuck up a potential traitor, as well as any legitimate uses of it.
That's just poor sportsmanship.
But I'm okay with putting away the engine parts when they're not in use.
That's just poor sportsmanship.
But I'm okay with putting away the engine parts when they're not in use.
Former Dev/Headmin
Who is this guy?
Who is this guy?
- bandit
- Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:35 pm
- Byond Username: Bgobandit
Re: Level of knowledge
There IS a 100% guaranteed way to test clown antag status. But I'm almost afraid to say it because I know that the second I do some motherfucker will try it. (It's also stupid and, IMO, a bug, and I keep meaning to github it. )QuartzCrystal wrote:In response to the clown thing, it's not 100% that the clown will shoot themselves. I personally think testing the clown for clumsiness (let's say, making him shoot a stun gun a bunch of times) is shitty as fuck. It also doesn't even make sense from a practical stand point, as if you are promoting a clown to security you almost WANT them to be a traitor, so that way they don't get stripped the moment they try to arrest someone and end up getting stunned by themselves in the middle of the hallway.
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- Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:32 am
- Byond Username: Mrpain666
Re: Level of knowledge
I like to think that all the crew have to sit through a hellishly boring 3 hour long power point presentation that outlines what all the traitor "types" are, what gear they use, and what spells they use.
But this would omit things like nuke ops preferring to bomb the telecoms APC, etc. Just things like what gear they use, what it looks like, what their suits look like, so on and so forth.
But this would omit things like nuke ops preferring to bomb the telecoms APC, etc. Just things like what gear they use, what it looks like, what their suits look like, so on and so forth.
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- TGMC Administrator
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Re: Level of knowledge
Moving the PA parts away seems perfectly acceptable if the station is already getting power from an alternative source, since that's an IC hazard and no reason to leave them out. Actually hiding them seems a bit dodgy though, unless someone has tried sabotage it previously etc.
- Not-Dorsidarf
- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:14 pm
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- Location: We're all going on an, admin holiday
Re: Level of knowledge
Yeah, if you've set up a huge solar array/the supermatter/whatever, hiding a piece of the PA is really, really advised because otherwise some chucklefuck brand new engineer will roll in and try to set it up. And probbably fail. And then the crew will lynch YOU.
kieth4 wrote: infrequently shitting yourself is fine imo
There is a lot of very bizarre nonsense being talked on this forum. I shall now remain silent and logoff until my points are vindicated.
Player who complainted over being killed for looting cap office wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am Hey there, I'm Virescent, the super evil person who made the stupid appeal and didn't think it through enough. Just came here to say: screech, retards. Screech and writhe like the worms you are. Your pathetic little cries will keep echoing around for a while before quietting down. There is one great outcome from this: I rised up the blood pressure of some of you shitheads and lowered your lifespan. I'm honestly tempted to do this more often just to see you screech and writhe more, but that wouldn't be cool of me. So come on haters, show me some more of your high blood pressure please.
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- Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 6:53 pm
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Re: Level of knowledge
Putting some in secure storage and shutting that seems reasonable, at least.
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