Roboticist and AIs making.
- Unoki
- Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:46 pm
- Byond Username: Unoki
Roboticist and AIs making.
Hello everyone, Yeah this another policy discussion about silicons joy...
So this policy Thread is about roboticist making one or more ais for no reason other than lolz !
Why is it bad:
-It ruins the gameplay of the main AI(Robbing the main AI of their gameplay of opening doors feels like a dick move to the ai).
-Ghost can metagame (knowing that the ai is malf) by becoming Positronic Brain and asking to be AI.
How can this be fixed.
Making another AI without any ic justification like (Ai is malf, Ai is dead, or at least ask the main AI first if they wish to have another silicon friend) will get you noted.
Asking to be made an AI as a Positronic Brain with the ghost knowledge that the main ai is malf will get you noted.
So this policy Thread is about roboticist making one or more ais for no reason other than lolz !
Why is it bad:
-It ruins the gameplay of the main AI(Robbing the main AI of their gameplay of opening doors feels like a dick move to the ai).
-Ghost can metagame (knowing that the ai is malf) by becoming Positronic Brain and asking to be AI.
How can this be fixed.
Making another AI without any ic justification like (Ai is malf, Ai is dead, or at least ask the main AI first if they wish to have another silicon friend) will get you noted.
Asking to be made an AI as a Positronic Brain with the ghost knowledge that the main ai is malf will get you noted.
- Tearling
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:40 pm
- Byond Username: Tearling
Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Why is it good:Unoki wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 8:51 pm Hello everyone, Yeah this another policy discussion about silicons joy...
So this policy Thread is about roboticist making one or more ais for no reason other than lolz !
Why is it bad:
-It ruins the gameplay of the main AI(Robbing the main AI of their gameplay of opening doors feels like a dick move to the ai).
-Ghost can metagame (knowing that the ai is malf) by becoming Positronic Brain and asking to be AI.
How can this be fixed.
Making another AI without any ic justification like (Ai is malf, Ai is dead, or at least ask the main AI first if they wish to have another silicon friend) will get you noted.
Asking to be made an AI as a Positronic Brain with the ghost knowledge that the main ai is malf will get you noted.
-It creates more silicon roleplay
-It creates more AI shenanigans that create unique and memorable rounds
Is it common for ghosts to metagame that the AI is malf and become AIs themselves? I figured that wasn't that common, given that I don't usually see roboticists making spare AIs.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:41 am From my perspective, players just want to genuinely be listened to. And I don't mean it condescendingly, but to genuinely have their say and for admins to listen, process it and reply. Even if you don't give two shits about what the player is saying, even if you disagree with every part of what they say, players are less likely to leave an ahelp pissed off if you've listened to them and given a reply that directly addresses what they've told you.
- Imitates-The-Lizards
- Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:28 am
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Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Finally, someone said it. Yes, for the love of god, ban roboticists from making a second AI for no reason, there's barely enough for one AI to do, let alone two, it's a huge "stepping on toes" issue, like imagine if a HoP promoted an assistant to second virologist. What the fuck does the first one do, then?
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Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
i had seen multiple times that people go secondary ai just to see if they can snitch on main ai, mostly on modsuit
I normally like teaming with ais, but i just dont wanna see the "are you malf?" in binary anymore
I normally like teaming with ais, but i just dont wanna see the "are you malf?" in binary anymore
- Unoki
- Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:46 pm
- Byond Username: Unoki
Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
-The silicon roleplay result always in "alright move you to sat."Tearling wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 9:13 pm
Why is it good:
-It creates more silicon roleplay
-It creates more AI shenanigans that create unique and memorable rounds
Is it common for ghosts to metagame that the AI is malf and become AIs themselves? I figured that wasn't that common, given that I don't usually see roboticists making spare AIs.
-When it happens every 3-4 rounds it doesn't become so memorable.
I don't mind another AIs it's just ask for main ai permision first, And no it isn't common but this behavior shouldn't be allowed.
-
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Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
One of easiest metagaming strats, fucks malfs over, annoys normal AIs, usually causes law conflict if the robo is feeling very funny. Nothing of importance will be lost with axing this behavior.
Silicon main, enough said
Tell me how badly I fucked up here: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=32575
Tell me how badly I fucked up here: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=32575
- Helios
- Joined: Mon May 05, 2014 5:07 pm
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Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Roboticists should require permission to make cyborgs or mechs too.
Let's tie both arms behind their back instead of just one.
That's easier than Genetics approach where you just hammer down everything worth having and leaving behind transcendent olfaction and cryokinesis
Let's tie both arms behind their back instead of just one.
That's easier than Genetics approach where you just hammer down everything worth having and leaving behind transcendent olfaction and cryokinesis
- Unoki
- Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:46 pm
- Byond Username: Unoki
Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
This seems a bit excessive, Borgs and mechs don't have that much negative impact to AI gameplay.Helios wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 3:22 am Roboticists should require permission to make cyborgs or mechs too.
Let's tie both arms behind their back instead of just one.
That's easier than Genetics approach where you just hammer down everything worth having and leaving behind transcendent olfaction and cryokinesis
Unless the roboticist as a non antag proceed to mass produce unsync borg for no reason, I guess.
Mechs aren't that hard to deal with them tbh.
- zxaber
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Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
I don't think I've ever had a purely negative result from a secondary AI being created as the starting/"Main" AI. Worst case, eventually one AI has to try and kill the other for law reasons, but that's not really any different than any other antag-adjacent player interaction.
If Malf AIs are routinely being screwed by new AIs, it sounds more like a code solution could be in place. It's an odd issue in my experience, though; usually when there's a Malf, the ghosts are scrambling to become a synced borg.
If Malf AIs are routinely being screwed by new AIs, it sounds more like a code solution could be in place. It's an odd issue in my experience, though; usually when there's a Malf, the ghosts are scrambling to become a synced borg.
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Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
You know how to synch borgs/shells to other AI's. Most roboticists are single-cell organisms and have no idea how to do so. Getting screwed out of borgs or shells for the rest of the shift is a pretty garbage experience.zxaber wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 1:33 pm I don't think I've ever had a purely negative result from a secondary AI being created as the starting/"Main" AI. Worst case, eventually one AI has to try and kill the other for law reasons, but that's not really any different than any other antag-adjacent player interaction.
If Malf AIs are routinely being screwed by new AIs, it sounds more like a code solution could be in place. It's an odd issue in my experience, though; usually when there's a Malf, the ghosts are scrambling to become a synced borg.
- warbluke
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Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
One round I made about twelve AIs, each with an additional freeform law that was just a prequel quote, "The council will decide your fate" or "I love democracy" or something like that. There was no problem, since I was able to get each AI its own shell so they could move themselves where they pleased.
- Misdoubtful
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Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Does it ruin the gameplay of the main AI everytime? Is this something related to laws?
We don't really operate on the concept that people will metagame as a means to keep things from existing. Otherwise, why would we have any ghost roles?
What does this do for player agency?Unoki wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 8:51 pm How can this be fixed.
Making another AI without any ic justification like (Ai is malf, Ai is dead, or at least ask the main AI first if they wish to have another silicon friend) will get you noted.
Asking to be made an AI as a Positronic Brain with the ghost knowledge that the main ai is malf will get you noted.
How can one know for certain that someone is abusing ghost knowledge?
Hugs
- Striders13
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Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
if the robo is making a new AI without asking the station AI first, station AI should just assume the secondary one to be harmful and order the borg to dispose of it.
- Imitates-The-Lizards
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Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Yes, it does. No, it is not (typically) related to laws.Misdoubtful wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 5:24 pmDoes it ruin the gameplay of the main AI everytime? Is this something related to laws?
Let's consider what an AI's (non-social) actions will be in a typical shift:
85% Managing doors (whether opening them, or bolting them during fights to prevent human harm)
5% managing security records
5% sending commands to simplebots
4% miscellaneous remote engineering tasks (setting air alarms in the event of gas leaks, occasionally doing the sm because there are no engineers)
1% calling the shuttle
80%+ (by my own subjective observations) of AI players don't know how to command simplebots or set up the sm. So that boils down their possible actions to opening doors and managing records.
So their gameplay is already extremely limited outside of the stalking and social aspects, which, y'know, are GOOD, but people are signing up for AI, not for a Nanotransen version of Comms agent.
And then some jackass roboticist builds a second AI, who now will compete with you over your very limited action pool - And that's the BEST case scenario, is that they steal your limited action pool. The worst case scenario is they fight you by fucking with your APC, try to kill you, out you as malf, sabotage the station because they have different laws, etc.
Robotics building a second AI is ALWAYS an extremely dickish move to the starter AI.
- Unoki
- Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:46 pm
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Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Nothing can be certain but when a positronic brain ask to be AI the moment they spawn, you can safely assume they metagames in my opinion.Misdoubtful wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 5:24 pm How can one know for certain that someone is abusing ghost knowledge?
(EDIT)And Imitates-The-Lizards explain correctly why it's so shitty for the main AI.
Problem is rule 1 Don't be a dick and nobody ordered you to kill the other AIs (law 2), nothing says you are at risk (law 3)Striders13 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 6:20 pm if the robo is making a new AI without asking the station AI first, station AI should just assume the secondary one to be harmful and order the borg to dispose of it.
- vect0r
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Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
I would be fine with others being able to make a 2nd AI, if I could kill it.
- Striders13
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Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Both you and humans are at risk from any newly constructed AI. You don't know what laws they might have, and they can instantly depower your APC at any given moment. If robo didn't even bother asking you, you can assume that they had a reason not to ask you.
- wesoda25
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Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Making more AI’s is a cool idea in theory that can often be obnoxious in practice. I’d say a net ban is lame and reactionary, admins should use their discretion to see that it’s not done super frequently.
- TheFinalPotato
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- Not-Dorsidarf
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Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
I quite like the idea of "If the roboticist doesnt communicate with you before making a new AI, the station AI can kill it the moment he looks away under law 3" tbh.
kieth4 wrote: infrequently shitting yourself is fine imo
There is a lot of very bizarre nonsense being talked on this forum. I shall now remain silent and logoff until my points are vindicated.
Player who complainted over being killed for looting cap office wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am Hey there, I'm Virescent, the super evil person who made the stupid appeal and didn't think it through enough. Just came here to say: screech, retards. Screech and writhe like the worms you are. Your pathetic little cries will keep echoing around for a while before quietting down. There is one great outcome from this: I rised up the blood pressure of some of you shitheads and lowered your lifespan. I'm honestly tempted to do this more often just to see you screech and writhe more, but that wouldn't be cool of me. So come on haters, show me some more of your high blood pressure please.
- oranges
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Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
my face when AI players consider their gameplay actually opening doors.
- Imitates-The-Lizards
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- Byond Username: Typhnox
Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Their main gameplay is social, being the overwatching mind coordinating the crew.
That doesn't mean people don't want to preserve their actual action pool.
If you ask me, the best thing that could happen to AI is adding a 20h station engineer requirement to it in addition to the 20h cyborg requirement, so that way AIs learn how to manage APCs, Air alarms, and start the SM solo.
- vect0r
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Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
I hated playing engi, and I learned HOW to do set up of SM solo APCs etc via AI.Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:43 amTheir main gameplay is social, being the overwatching mind coordinating the crew.
That doesn't mean people don't want to preserve their actual action pool.
If you ask me, the best thing that could happen to AI is adding a 20h station engineer requirement to it in addition to the 20h cyborg requirement, so that way AIs learn how to manage APCs, Air alarms, and start the SM solo.
Setting up the SM solo as AI is different from setting up SM as engi, as you have to pump n2 from distro into the SM.
So... please do not add an engi requirement!
Edit: managing APCs and AIR alarms is not something that engis do that often, and engis cannot even USE air alarms, as they lack access.
- CPTANT
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Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Yes this is something the AI can do (and does) but its not remotely enough content to fill the actual round. It's basically just a social role unless laws change.vect0r wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:48 amI hated playing engi, and I learned HOW to do set up of SM solo APCs etc via AI.Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:43 amTheir main gameplay is social, being the overwatching mind coordinating the crew.
That doesn't mean people don't want to preserve their actual action pool.
If you ask me, the best thing that could happen to AI is adding a 20h station engineer requirement to it in addition to the 20h cyborg requirement, so that way AIs learn how to manage APCs, Air alarms, and start the SM solo.
Setting up the SM solo as AI is different from setting up SM as engi, as you have to pump n2 from distro into the SM.
So... please do not add an engi requirement!
Edit: managing APCs and AIR alarms is not something that engis do that often, and engis cannot even USE air alarms, as they lack access.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
- vect0r
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Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
I am saying that we shouldn't add 20 hours of station engineers, not that it's not a social role.CPTANT wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:39 pmYes this is something the AI can do (and does) but its not remotely enough content to fill the actual round. It's basically just a social role unless laws change.vect0r wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:48 amI hated playing engi, and I learned HOW to do set up of SM solo APCs etc via AI.Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:43 amTheir main gameplay is social, being the overwatching mind coordinating the crew.
That doesn't mean people don't want to preserve their actual action pool.
If you ask me, the best thing that could happen to AI is adding a 20h station engineer requirement to it in addition to the 20h cyborg requirement, so that way AIs learn how to manage APCs, Air alarms, and start the SM solo.
Setting up the SM solo as AI is different from setting up SM as engi, as you have to pump n2 from distro into the SM.
So... please do not add an engi requirement!
Edit: managing APCs and AIR alarms is not something that engis do that often, and engis cannot even USE air alarms, as they lack access.
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Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
After being in another ai spam round, i would like if you could kill the newly created ais (created behind your back) for sure
- Sightld2
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Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
I just enjoyed a round on tgstation manuel. I initially cautioned the RD against making more Ai against the captains demands. We reached a conclusion where the Captain pressured me into permitting the construction of 2 additional Ai. They then proceeded to interfere with security and kill eachother. I believe they would have tried to kill me had I not cut the control wire in my satellite. The roboticists made shells for them while I had none. They then proceeded to make three more Ai, who continued this type of shenanigans. Ultimately? None of this was fun. You cannot effectively do anything while other Ai are contesting you. You compete for job content, cyborgs and shells, heck you even compete for malf. I don't think this is something that should never happen, but it'd be nice if I, the player who rolled Ai had a say in the matter, that wasn't what I signed up for and it's not whats generally fun about playing Ai. I have enjoyed many multi-Ai rounds in the past, it's just something that needs consenting to.
- Drag
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Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
It's generally considered a bitch move to make more ais when the original station ai protests, which is why I kill the other ais and any non humans making more ais.
- nianjiilical
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Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
i think it would be funny if malf ais had a malf ability to cause other ais to malfunction with the same objectives and a law -1 that makes the original malf ai the boss
human: ramon chivara
ai: shitpost generator
borg: shite-115
clown: donk tonkler
mime: beautiful noise
admin feedback thread
my admin policy:
ai: shitpost generator
borg: shite-115
clown: donk tonkler
mime: beautiful noise
admin feedback thread
my admin policy:
Spoiler:
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Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
It's extra fun when command cards you for objecting to the additional AIs.
Rushing to make extra AIs roundstart is trash and ruins the round for the starting AI. You don't get to have a job change to do something else, you're stuck being the 'other' AI while the new one gets all the new cyborgs and shells by default.
Rushing to make extra AIs roundstart is trash and ruins the round for the starting AI. You don't get to have a job change to do something else, you're stuck being the 'other' AI while the new one gets all the new cyborgs and shells by default.
- Armhulen
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Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Passively malfing any AI if there is any other Malf AI in existence is a really good idea in terms of making people think a little more on whether they should be making AIsnianjiilical wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 9:36 pm i think it would be funny if malf ais had a malf ability to cause other ais to malfunction with the same objectives and a law -1 that makes the original malf ai the boss
- vect0r
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Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
If we did do a passive, you could meta it by carding the AI to see if it's malf.
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Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Also that would enable people to create their valid (on lrp) , which they already do with law abuse/spam till an admin shows mercy and malfs
Dont think code change is needed here, just policy
Dont think code change is needed here, just policy
- zxaber
- In-Game Admin
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Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
This is incorrect. The code for assigning new borgs specifically load balances borgs across all AIs on the same Z level (or station levels for multi-z) that are not dead and are in a core. For this purpose, shells are tallied like regular borgs, meaning if you already have a round-start borg and the new AI has nothing, the new AI will get the first shell.carshalash wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 2:56 pm while the new one gets all the new cyborgs and shells by default.
Of course, Robotics can intentionally set a shell's AI link to give all new borgs to the new AI, and are assholes if they do for no good reason.
- Armhulen
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Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, i'm sure there's a solution to this
- blackdav123
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Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
just make the malfing an ability so that it only happens when the malf AI wants it to (and preferably has a borg ready to move the newly malfed AI)
Weston Echard on Sybil
- spookuni
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Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
We have no interest in the general prohibition of station roboticists, research directors and command staff creating or ordering the creation of new AIs, multi-AI rounds have great potential for interesting and shenanigan filled silliness, and we have no intention of banning that wholesale.
With that said, Malf-metaing by taking a posibrain to become an AI and then revealing or contesting their actions is something admins are fully empowered to note and ban for under rules 1 and 2 - don't use respawns to fuck with people, dick move.
Additionally, we're supportive of empowering station AIs to directly action and combat new AIs made without their knowledge and/or consent. Switching off the APC of a new AI with an unknown lawset or killing it for getting in your way is fine.
Spook: As above
Rave: Agree with above
San: Agree with above
Misdoubtful: Agree with above
With that said, Malf-metaing by taking a posibrain to become an AI and then revealing or contesting their actions is something admins are fully empowered to note and ban for under rules 1 and 2 - don't use respawns to fuck with people, dick move.
Additionally, we're supportive of empowering station AIs to directly action and combat new AIs made without their knowledge and/or consent. Switching off the APC of a new AI with an unknown lawset or killing it for getting in your way is fine.
Spook: As above
Rave: Agree with above
San: Agree with above
Misdoubtful: Agree with above
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