NoxVS - Encouraging Banbaiting Behaviour From Another Admin

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TypicalRig
Joined: Sat May 01, 2021 8:18 pm
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NoxVS - Encouraging Banbaiting Behaviour From Another Admin

Post by TypicalRig » #676927

BYOND account: TypicalRig
Character name: Finn Saylor
Ban type: Severe Note
Ban reason: As a nonantagonist, was attacked by a revolutionary and blinded in the process. Accused the revolutionary of being a headrev to get them killed, and had their tongue removed as retaliation when the rev was deconverted. Was eventually given their tongue back, but proceeded to kill and space the former revolutionary. This is over-escalation.
Time ban was placed: 2023-04-07 04:59:02
Server you were playing on when banned: Sybil
Round ID in which ban was placed: 203289
Your side of the story: At one point in the shift, a hand tele portal someone else made randomly brought me to Medbay. Lyn Nakamura points at one of the three portals and medbay and tells me to leave through it. I refuse and mention how she is probably going to attack me, since I know she has a habit of being overly hostile over medbay entry. Sure enough, she scalpels me to the point of partial blindness with as I stand there doing nothing. Whatever. I tell her to fix the blindness repeatedly, she refuses, and leaves medbay. Okay. At this point, I figure it's a 50/50 on if she's a shitter or antagonist, but randomly blinding me for not wanting to enter portals out of medbay isn't standard escalation, and it would be weird if an admin was breaking the rules, so I call her out as an antagonist. I wasn't 100% sure if she was specifically a rev, but from the behaviour I figured she was a baddie, so I called her out as a head rev to get her lynched. Instead, she gets mindshielded. At one stage, I end up in crit via engiborg and brought to the brig. I get healed, mindshielded, and as I'm waking up Lyn is removing my tongue. She's with sec and (presumably mindshielded?) at this stage, so probably not a rev. But she was removing my tongue and we were both mindshielded. So again, either a shitter, or an antag, I thought. I go back to medbay with the intention of waiting there until a chance to kill Lyn comes up since due to her, I've been unable to play a good half of the round properly. (Partial blindness lasted an extremely long time and when finally healed, she removes my ability to speak in an RP game). During this, after pestering, she reinserts my tongue, but refuses to treat my wounds despite there being no sutures left. Whatever, the goal was to still kill her, so doesn't matter if she's refusing to do her job. At one point a botanist asks her to see how fast Lyn could kill him with deathnettles. I take advantage of this and tell the borg, who came in late "human harm" and get him to lynch Lyn with me. I proceed to space the body so I don't have to deal with her for the rest of the shift.
Why you think you should be unnoted: She blinded me as a rev, and refused to fix the eye damage. I called her out as an antag, but got the type of antag wrong. After being derevved, Lyn still held a grudge from a conflict that was between us as from when she was rev, to the point where she removed my tongue, when in actuality she should've dropped it after being mindshielded. She only reinserted the tongue after me asking for ages, so my shift time was unnecessarily wasted because of that and the blindness (that wasn't ever fixed by her). The post-rev grudge doesn't end there, as she also refused to tend my brute out of spite after reinserting my tongue. I also never knew revs ended. Say logs will confirm this as when the shuttle leaving was delayed, I was talking to Kaleb about how he should revive the CE despite him being a heretic, at least until revs ends, only for Kaleb to tell me there was a blob. I had reason to believe she was an antag, I was correct to assume this, I didn't know what antag type, I plotted and waited for revenge, got that revenge, and RR'd her to make sure I wouldn't have further issues from her. I had no reason to think she was just a rev at that stage, as she had acted antagonistic all shift, regardless of mindshield status. Why am I expected to end the conflict at incapacitation when Lyn wouldn't even end the conflict upon being derevved? This is a massive double standard, and hardly over escalation.
Anything else we should know: Alamo Turtle, who ahelped this and knew precisely why I attacked them, as we had conflict all shift, should be investigated for banbaiting. They were in their right as an antag to FNR blind me, even though it's a dick thing to do in a conversion based antag against non-mindshielded crew. But to not only act on a grudge from when they were a rev after being derevved but ALSO to ahelp when killed and spaced for it, knowing fully well what they did, and why I did it, is textbook definition of banbaiting. Admins should not be weaponizing other admins like this.
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AlamoTurtle
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2021 3:05 pm
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Re: NoxVS - Encouraging Banbaiting Behaviour From Another Admin

Post by AlamoTurtle » #676949

I figured I'd add to this, as I'm the one who plays Lyn Nakamura and the one who ahelped in the first place, so I want to provide further context from my side of the story. I was in medbay with no prior interactions with Finn, and after going through a hand tele portal with a revolutionary conga, I tried to shove them back into the portal so they could get converted. This was my first interaction with Finn all shift, to which they stopped and made a comment to me.
► Show Spoiler
I then stabbed Finn in the eyes when a revhead chimp walked in, hoping the distraction and follow-up stun from eye-stabs would keep Finn still to flash him. They then responded with a discussion about escalation and "metagrudging", which kind of goes against them believing me to be an antagonist in any way.
► Show Spoiler
At this point, I felt TypicalRig was not aware I was even a revolutionary, or an antag of any actual sort, as they claim in their "Your side of the story"part, up until I was deconverted, instead assuming it to be metagrudging. As Finn continued to demand me to fix his eyes, as the headrev geneticist refused to flash him, I instead decided to leave him and rush to the brig, where the revolution conga was taking place to potentially help there.
Instead, Finn made a false accusation about me being a head revolutionary to try getting security to kill me. Finn has a habit of falsely accusing me of doing crimes to get security or the crew to lynch me when I upset him.

Code: Select all

03:47:02	SAY	TypicalRig/(Finn Saylor) "saw lyn nakamura flashing people"	(88, 102, 2)	Medbay Central
Shortly after, I am arrested and deconverted with a mindshield,

Code: Select all

[2023-04-07 03:48:11.214] GAME: Alamo Turtle/(Lyn Nakamura) has lost antag datum �Revolutionary(/datum/antagonist/rev). (Brig (117,167,2))
After Finn was brought into the brig, I thought, amidst the chaos of the brig's mosh pit, I'd take his tongue out while they were being deconverted, due to the earlier incident in the medbay, then put it back in, thinking it as some "poetic justice" for blatantly lying about me. When I plopped it out, Finn got up and, understandably, started chasing me down to tell me to put it back in.
► Show Spoiler
Instead, I went back to medbay. Later into the shift, Finn finally returned to medbay, and as I satisfied with the antics of his missing tongue, I took it and replaced it back into his mouth, where he had a justifiably long time to be upset at me for such a situation.
► Show Spoiler
At this point, it seemed Finn had calmed down after I had put the tongue back in to hopefully get him off my back after the revolution's been quelled, where I instead went back to medical duties and such. Suddenly, Bean Sprout had entered the medbay asking me to kill him, which as stated above, Finn was aware of, a consensual "experiment" of whatever sort.
► Show Spoiler
Where Finn took the opportunity to tell a borg about the situation to get me killed, and subsequently, round-removed, all while lying about me "killing Bean" in a nonconsensual manner to justify his spacing of me.
► Show Spoiler
And Bean admitted in dead chat he just wanted to leave the round
► Show Spoiler
I had ahelped about Finn, but mostly the borg, who jumped into action over a consensual "fight", if you could call it that, and allowing me to be round-removed, something I was obviously pissed about. The admin, Nox, asked me to explain what happened prior to the spacing, and I had explained my entire side of the story with Nox. However, there weren't many follow-up questions, so I couldn't give further details on anything. I knew why Finn had assisted killing me, as mentioned in their "Anything else we should know" section of their appeal, but I felt spacing me with intent of round-removing me as a result was much too far and left a sour taste in my mouth as they had only did it after we had de-escalated, and as mentioned prior, was an ahelp for the borg as well, which I am uncertain got noted or discussed to about the ticket.

Attack logs:
► Show Spoiler
Edit: Spoiled a lot of stuff since it was long
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NoxVS
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Re: NoxVS - Encouraging Banbaiting Behaviour From Another Admin

Post by NoxVS » #678255

First of all, don't do the whole "this is escalation baiting" stuff please. Standing in front of someone and saying that it's escalation baiting if they don't heal you is pretty much right up there with telling people that you're calling an admin. It's OOC in IC.

Onto the actual note - The first thing I had an issue with was trying to get uninvolved parties to round remove Lyn by lying and falsely accusing them of being a headrev. From their point of view they tried attacking you to get you converted, failed, and decided to heal you up as quickly as they could before going back to the revolution. They could have done more, but blindness on its own should wear off or you can even ask for oculine. Trying to convince someone unrelated to this to round remove them isn't really the next logical step in escalation (to the point that it could be argued you've started a brand new conflict by doing so ), and so it's hard to fault Lyn for removing your tongue in revenge. This is also something that's relatively simple to solve - If you have your old tongue find someone to put it back in. Robotics, another doctor, some random assistant, whatever. Could even get another tongue from somewhere else and use that. Regardless, they eventually put it back and it seems like all is well. Neither of you are fighting, both are leaving the other alone, seems like everything is fine now. You then see an opportunity to kill them and take it, quickly grabbing them and throwing them out the departures airlock.

Had you either not falsely accused them of being a headrev or round removed them by throwing them out an airlock, this probably would have been perfectly fine. If you had just said they stabbed your eyes then I wouldn't have had an issue with you doing this since they wouldn't have had a good reason to continue the conflict like they did. And if you hadn't killed and spaced them then obviously there's nothing to even consider taking action against.

Instead, you gave them a good reason to go after you like they did, and then used that as an excuse to kill them and throw them out the nearest airlock. In the words of a wise man -

Code: Select all

[2023-04-07 03:45:34.577] SAY: TypicalRig/(Finn Saylor) "so then you are escalation baiting" (Medbay Treatment Center (85,101,2))
Alamo Turtle, who ahelped this and knew precisely why I attacked them, as we had conflict all shift, should be investigated for banbaiting.
This is a ban appeal and not a ban request or admin complaint, so I don't see that happening as a result of this. Your best bet would probably be to make an admin complaint against me for not doing so should this appeal be accepted.
Admins should not be weaponizing other admins like this.
My name recognition is so awful that I didn't even realize it was another admin until you brought it up yourself. I treated them as I would any other player and, once again, feel free to admin complaint me if this appeal is successful and you still disagree.

You weren't wrong about what type of antag they were when you called them out, you lied to get more people to go after them and attack them for more than they had actually done. You round removed them so you wouldn't have further issues, when they were already leaving you alone. Both seem like significant overescalation. From what I can see the note is factual and isn't unjustifiably harsh, and I don't intend to remove this note as is.
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TypicalRig
Joined: Sat May 01, 2021 8:18 pm
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Re: NoxVS - Encouraging Banbaiting Behaviour From Another Admin

Post by TypicalRig » #678491

A few minor errors on Vox's statements, in order:
-Trying to get uninvolved parties to round remove Lyn by lying and falsely accusing them.
I did lie IC and frame Lyn to get sec to attack her, and with the intent of getting her killed. You made up the round remove tidbit yourself, but even if that were my aim, I already had reason to consider them an antag due to them randomly stabbing my eyes, meaning if they did somehow end up round removed over that, is covered by such: "If a conflict leads to violence and either participant is incapacitated, the standing participant is expected to make an effort to treat the other, unless they have reason to believe the other was an antagonist." Unless you wish to argue that eye stabbing isn't sufficient justification to assume someone is an antag.

-Lyn tried to heal you up as quickly as possible before returning to the revolution.
-Blindness should wear off or you can ask for oculine.
There is no reason to defend Lyn's actions from when she was a rev, so let's not worry about arguing that. Antags can do as they please. Also, medical conditions being "reversible" don't make them any less annoying from my perspective ICly and OOCly. Would you tell someone that losing your arm isn't so bad because you can just get a new one?

-Trying to convince someone unrelated to this to round remove them isn't really the next logical step in escalation.
Again. Round removal was a conclusion you came up with. Standard procedure for security when they think someone is a rev is to mindshield and search them. If anything, even though my intent was to get Lyn killed from that, it was poorly thought out on my end since realistically they'd just get the implant procedure and MAYBE a bag check, which would've confirmed any antag items. And sure enough, that's precisely what happened. If we go off the basis that I thought she was an antag, then even if your round removal theory is correct, I would still be following escalation policy. So again, are you arguing that I didn't have sufficient reasoning to think she was an antag? There's nothing saying that I have to kill them with my own hands.

Now, here's the portion of our interaction, where I feel it's more of a grey area. The part where I wake up on a bed in the brig after being critted with Lyn standing next to me, presumably the one who healed me. Escalation policy is a bit sloppy and vague in this area in regards to third party interactions, but I'll post it anyway.

"If a conflict leads to violence and either participant is incapacitated, the standing participant is expected to make an effort to treat the other, unless they have reason to believe the other was an antagonist. Once treated the conflict is over; any new conflict with either individual must escalate once again. If you get into a conflict again with that individual, they may be removed permanently from the round. Conflict is automatically suspended when one participant is dead or incapacitated. A player who uses the state of incapacitation to take further action against the downed party chooses to extend the ongoing conflict past its original endpoint, and opens themselves up to further reprisal to avenge damage or recover stolen possessions."

Lyn did not incapacitate me, but she confirmed with her own eyes that I was incapacitated. Presumably she at least healed me partially before ripping my tongue out, but as I was KO'd I truly don't know. Regardless, conflict should've at the very least paused between us. Instead, she used my state of incapacitation to take my tongue out, opening her up to further escalation. It doesn't clarify that I have to stop upon having the stolen goods (in this case, the tongue) returned, just that she opens themselves to even more aggression than before. If your argument is that me calling them a rev head might count as "a new conflict", then by policy, I can remove them permanently from the round.

Finally, I'd like to remind you of this part of rule 4: "Non-antags acting like an antag can be treated as an antag." Upset or not over having their rev status removed, she was not forced to act the way she did, she is not the victim of some sob story, and she had the chance to continue the round normally. Her decision, although with justification backed behind it, does not give her immunity to the consequences of her own actions IC. Surgically attaching my tongue does not change the fact she ripped it out for laughs to begin with, and then refused to tend my brute afterwards even then. This was the second conflict I had with her after treatment, and thus, was allowed to round remove her.
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NoxVS
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Re: NoxVS - Encouraging Banbaiting Behaviour From Another Admin

Post by NoxVS » #679198

TypicalRig wrote: ↑Mon Apr 10, 2023 7:38 pm I did lie IC and frame Lyn to get sec to attack her, and with the intent of getting her killed. You made up the round remove tidbit yourself
Round removal is the next logical step after killing a headrev. If you intended for her to be killed for being a headrev, what did you expect next? That security would revive the person they have reason to believe needs to remain dead? You cannot genuinely tell me that you did not imagine a successful attempt to convince security that someone is a headrev would result in their round removal.
TypicalRig wrote: ↑Mon Apr 10, 2023 7:38 pm Unless you wish to argue that eye stabbing isn't sufficient justification to assume someone is an antag.
I think deciding to heal the brute damage (albeit, not the organ damage) instead of just outright killing you puts a dent in that justification. But that doesn't really matter - What matters is Lyn walks away deconverted and pissed off, for good reason, that you blatantly lied to get others to round remove them for you.
TypicalRig wrote: ↑Mon Apr 10, 2023 7:38 pm Escalation policy is a bit sloppy and vague in this area in regards to third party interactions, but I'll post it anyway.
I don't think this is really relevant. It didn't really solve the issue at hand for Lyn.
TypicalRig wrote: ↑Mon Apr 10, 2023 7:38 pm If your argument is that me calling them a rev head might count as "a new conflict", then by policy, I can remove them permanently from the round.
That's not how the rule works. If a tider steals your shoes and you beat them and get them back the conflict has ended. If you later walk up to and shove them and they shove back, that is not justification to immediately pull out a gun and execute them. It exists to allow you to deal with players that are refusing to back down.
TypicalRig wrote: ↑Mon Apr 10, 2023 7:38 pm Surgically attaching my tongue does not change the fact she ripped it out for laughs to begin with
She ripped it out because you attempted to have others round remove her. You used it to falsely accuse her and she took it away, it's an ironic punishment or something.
TypicalRig wrote: ↑Mon Apr 10, 2023 7:38 pm This was the second conflict I had with her after treatment, and thus, was allowed to round remove her.
Once again, that's not how it works. The rule exists so that conflicts can end once someone "wins", and to allow you to play the round if the other party refuses to stop going after you.

If a player is trying to back down from a fight then no, you should not be round removing them like that. You're eyes were presumably healed on their own, your tongue was back in place, you weren't actively fighting each other, the conflict is over. Escalation exists so players can handle their own issues without just having to rely on an admin every single time. It isn't a checklist for round removal. You can still try to seek revenge for your tongue being taken out but that revenge should not be hurling them out the closest airlock. Especially when this started over you trying to round remove someone who stabbed you in the eyes like 6 times and then healed a portion of the damage.

I still don't see any issue with the note and I imagine we are just going to be repeating ourselves and rehashing what has already been said, so I am going to deny this unless there is anything I've missed that's relevant to the issue. As always, headmin review is available if you still disagree with me.
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Timberpoes
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Re: NoxVS - Encouraging Banbaiting Behaviour From Another Admin

Post by Timberpoes » #679664

This is just a note. It's being upheld, as it's both factual and not overly harsh.

Timberpoes: ^
Kieth4: I saw this note really, read through the logs. He is at fault for the situation and has really bad say logs. I want to KEEP this note if possible.
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