Reider Meza - How I learned to stop worrying and love the Bwoink

[saprasam]

Bottom post of the previous page:

viewtopic.php?p=685781#p685781

[MooCow12]

RP is not being Edgemaster "nuthin personally..." Doomman and making every single interaction you have with people a potential fight.
You are not playing the main character in an open world RPG game

You literally just said roleplaying game game

also i dont know what world you live in where you think people fighting over tools like broke rats are considered "doom man" or "edgemasters" we call those people things but not good things they are assistants, lowest class on the station, use your imagination, they are acting perfectly appropriate for their situation if you take into account real life concepts such as desire and desperation and i think you should move to an nrp server if you cant stop comparing this stuff to doom or some other game.

[Archie700]

NRP servers would be literally full of these kinds of people what are you even talking about

[MooCow12]

NRP servers would be literally full of these kinds of people what are you even talking about

What are you talking about? You brought up "doomman" and "edgemasters" not me? If you want to force that interpretation of someone fighting over tools as them being doomguy I dont think lrp mrp or hrp is right for you unless you are clearly joking about it as the clown or something.

[Lacran]

Nobody uses your definition. Nobody. You don't go to an HRP server and see the kind of roleplay you are talking about.

Well good id hope there wouldnt be any servers that involves everyone acting the same way, having both introvert and extroverts goes a long way to setting a fun environment.

You are trying to argue with vekter's ruling on the basis of a semantic objection. You are saying that causing destruction is a form of roleplay, so they couldn't be guilty of a lack of RP. The issue being that nobody besides you considers that roleplay, and even if we did it doesn't change the fact that players like that are universally not enjoyable to play around if its the only thing they ever do.

Conflict is important in a round, but that's also why we have antags, if this person solely comes to the game to wordlessly create conflict they are just fabricating conflict so they can line toe self antagging.

[MooCow12]

You are trying to argue with vekter's ruling on the basis of a semantic objection. You are saying that causing destruction is a form of roleplay, so they couldn't be guilty of a lack of RP. The issue being that nobody besides you considers that roleplay, and even if we did it doesn't change the fact that players like that are universally not enjoyable to play around if its the only thing they ever do.

I did not narrow it down to destruction although destruction in all its forms can be present within a dynamic interaction that comes from other players, roleplay is literally how you impact everyone regardless if its positive or negative, do you feel anger when someone breaks into your room? do you feel joy when the engineer does his job and you dont have to worry about power? do you feel contempt when someone else uses all of the materials? Good because you are feeling as though you are from the perspective of the character you are playing as given your personality.


Roleplay does not have to be direct it does not have to be verbal it does not have to be obvious and it does not have to make you feel good.

[Archie700]

Also the "desire and desperation" you talk about is things like "that guy took insuls before me I must fight him because I am impatient" or "I must raid medbay by myself for supplies over being punched", or "let me make a entire security chase me by being a complete ass to players" so if your idea of high RP is to constantly be an edgy troublemaker then I guess hippiestation was high RP.

[Lacran]

I did not narrow it down to destruction although destruction in all its forms can be present within a dynamic interaction that comes from other players, roleplay is literally how you impact everyone regardless if its positive or negative, do you feel anger when someone breaks into your room? do you feel joy when the engineer does his job and you dont have to worry about power? do you feel contempt when someone else uses all of the materials?


Roleplay does not have to be direct it does not have to be verbal it does not have to be obvious and it does not have to make you feel good.

Your generous reinterpration of what Roleplay is doesn't actually justify this persons actions.

We have specific roles to create conflict, while you can seek conflict or create it, if you are doing it every single round, the exact same way you aren't adding to the story of the round, you are just being a dickhead.

I'm not even sure why you are so desperate to tie yourself in knots defending this behaviour, is being a hopeless mute shitter a hill you were planning to die on yourself?

[Scriptis]

upon closer inspection i think vekter may be right due to the fact that--

well, to be perfectly honest, i've less led maskenary to water here than i have drowned him in the lake at this point, and i'm usually too lenient anyway so maybe shouldn't be my call for once

i'm still disappointed and i hope he keeps hanging out on discord despite the ban (and gets parole for hanging out in discord and being a part of the community despite all the odds stacked against him)

[conrad]

upon closer inspection i think vekter may be right due to the fact that--

well, to be perfectly honest, i've less led maskenary to water here than i have drowned him in the lake at this point, and i'm usually too lenient anyway so maybe shouldn't be my call for once

i'm still disappointed and i hope he keeps hanging out on discord despite the ban (and gets parole for hanging out in discord and being a part of the community despite all the odds stacked against him)

To repeat what I said on the discord, unless it gets overruled by headmins, he has until the next headmin term, or next year I guess, to get his act together, and then try to rejoin as a reformed player.

But I'm too cynical to believe that'll be the case.

[MooCow12]

Also the "desire and desperation" you talk about is things like "that guy took insuls before me I must fight him because I am impatient" or "I must raid medbay by myself for supplies over being punched", or "let me make a entire security chase me by being a complete ass to players" so if your idea of high RP is to constantly be an edgy troublemaker then I guess hippiestation was high RP.

{Also the "desire and desperation" you talk about is things like "that guy took insuls before me I must fight him because I am impatient"}

Another person of my class got something that would otherwise elevate my status and ability to determine my future in one of the most hazardous and underpaid jobs ive ever had (remember assistants are lower class) "impatient" lol

{"I must raid medbay by myself for supplies over being punched"}

this is a good one because its directly the fault of game mechanics because of how injuries work (realistically nothing is gonna really make a bruise heal quicker and you should take a trip to a doctor instead if you have a serious injury but if people could easily heal themselves in real life then why would anyone go to a doctor?)

{"let me make a entire security chase me by being a complete ass to players"}

we literally get massive police chases livestreamed irl all the time people are either shit or they let escalation spiral out of control.

[kinnebian]

You are trying to argue with vekter's ruling on the basis of a semantic objection. You are saying that causing destruction is a form of roleplay, so they couldn't be guilty of a lack of RP. The issue being that nobody besides you considers that roleplay, and even if we did it doesn't change the fact that players like that are universally not enjoyable to play around if its the only thing they ever do.

I did not narrow it down to destruction although destruction in all its forms can be present within a dynamic interaction that comes from other players, roleplay is literally how you impact everyone regardless if its positive or negative, do you feel anger when someone breaks into your room? do you feel joy when the engineer does his job and you dont have to worry about power? do you feel contempt when someone else uses all of the materials? Good because you are feeling as though you are from the perspective of the character you are playing as given your personality.


Roleplay does not have to be direct it does not have to be verbal it does not have to be obvious and it does not have to make you feel good.

I'd agree with this if it was relevant at all to the current case.
In a normal case, you'd start a conflict with someone over these things, it would escalate and maybe end up in a fun feud. Maybe beat the snot out of them in a climatic fight.

You know what isnt fun?
You catch the guy who wordlessly slighted you in some way, and when you beat him in a fight? he just screams "unrobust" then disconnects. Thats not RP, thats just lame.

I'd make the argument that rule 12 is designed for people like Reider, where his competitive "play-to-win" behaviour is actively harmful to other players rounds, no matter if hes caught.

[MooCow12]

I'm not even sure why you are so desperate to tie yourself in knots defending this behaviour, is being a hopeless mute shitter a hill you were planning to die on yourself?

No but the more you namecall the more i want to die on a hill directly opposite from yours.

[MooCow12]

You catch the guy who wordlessly slighted you in some way, and when you beat him in a fight? he just screams "unrobust" then disconnects. Thats not RP, thats just lame.

I'd make the argument that rule 12 is designed for people like Reider, where his competitive "play-to-win" behaviour is actively harmful to other players rounds, no matter if hes caught.

You are right none of the arguements so far have been about this, I even said earlier there were better reasons to ban reider than just not talking and this is one of those scenarios where talking is worse than not talking.

Again all of my arguements so far were against the basis that not talking is bad, but what you are bringing up is entirely my point like why in the fuck is just him not talking the reason he is banned when we have better reasons to slap him with

its not a lack of rp and im gonna fucking fight that forever until the ban reason is changed to be based on this behavior or some other behavior but not being fucking silent or fighting over tools as an assistant


so until vektor shifts his reasoning, this is relevant to the current case.

I literally have like 6 instances of me having to deal with his shit and even i have to defend him because the ideology that got him banned (again not flaming vektor just saying he comes from manual which has stricter rules) reeks so bad, you can ban him for something that would get you banned on sybil/terry but instead slap him with something that would get you banned on manual or fulp.

[Archie700]

Ban reason:

Has shown a willing refusal to interact with the game in any context other than as a combat simulator. Repeated and constant violations of rules 1, 10, and 12 over the last few years, including consistent attempts to avoid actually RPing in a role-playing game, to the point where they will go far, far out of their way to steal things instead of ask for them. What little RP they engage in is sufficiently low-quality to be questioned as actual RP. While we would normally need an inciting incident to escalate to a permanent ban, we are placing this as a quality control measure.

[MooCow12]

Ban reason:

the ban itself

You're not understanding how his actions affect other players. His refusal to RP isn't an excuse. He actively refuses to RP with people because his preferred method of getting things is to break in, steal it, and beat the absolute piss out of anyone who tries to stop him.

This was mainly what alienated me from Vekter that and combination of this and stuff going on irl for me to try to avoid is why id rather type away in a peanut thread than deal with that. I dont LIKE people being removed from a community and its not something i can internally feel right about without sufficient copium like "he did this really really bad thing that actually did hurt everyone"

[Timonk]

upon closer inspection i think vekter may be right due to the fact that--

well, to be perfectly honest, i've less led maskenary to water here than i have drowned him in the lake at this point, and i'm usually too lenient anyway so maybe shouldn't be my call for once

i'm still disappointed and i hope he keeps hanging out on discord despite the ban (and gets parole for hanging out in discord and being a part of the community despite all the odds stacked against him)

To repeat what I said on the discord, unless it gets overruled by headmins, he has until the next headmin term, or next year I guess, to get his act together, and then try to rejoin as a reformed player.

But I'm too cynical to believe that'll be the case.

He will have to be the second coming of Jesus Christ to get it appealed before the year is up

[Not-Dorsidarf]

call me Palpatine cuz vekter be obeying my evil suggestions precipitating a fall from grace

[saprasam]

Nobody uses your definition. Nobody. You don't go to an HRP server and see the kind of roleplay you are talking about.

Well good id hope there wouldnt be any servers that involves everyone acting the same way, having both introvert and extroverts goes a long way to setting a fun environment.

Conflict is important in a round, but that's also why we have antags, if this person solely comes to the game to wordlessly create conflict they are just fabricating conflict so they can line toe self antagging.

i wrote an entire paragraph explaining how the lrp culture has caused the degeneration of antag gimmick play styles & how it affects how people play & start conflicts, only to realize it made 0 sense given the context and sounded like deluded ramblings

[Not-Dorsidarf]

I do want to point out that vekter doesn't seem to know what the adjective "devious" means and says "obviously spamming obscure tiktok memes in ic" which is funny?

[Pepper]

kicking reider in the shins and telling him to get good is funny

this ban is not it sucks

[Jacquerel]

has this guy tried playing fortnite

[Kendrickorium]

More thoughts:
People don't want to be around Meza. It's pretty clear why, because everybody thinks they are a 'greytiding shit'. They get pretty much valided, and because of there reputation, it's ok, as it's 'just meza'. This toxic cycle of everything just shitting on Reider whenever they get brought up means they never really have a chance to roleplay. They have never been shown good RP, just collecting bans for not RPing, and I would assume they have tried once, and just got fucking dunked by everybody else.

this.
if you can establish a pattern of NOT TREATING THEM LIKE A FUCKING MONGOLOID every encounter, they will very quickly lighten up

I can't tell you how many times ive observed reider and seen people fucking with him JUST BECAUSE ITS REIDER.
I can't tell you how many times ive witnessed players that should have been banned for metagrudging the guy IC.

the IC spreads to OOC which infests more and more IC

i've watched reider in command roles before and the fucking amount of literal ROVING BANDS OF TIDERS that fuck with him just "because its reider" rivals the amount that would go after dean ivanov, BOTH OF WHOM would ALSO go into departments and steal shit instead of asking for it. dean was ALSO just as mute when it comes to roleplay as Reider (sorry dean i love you)


TLDR-

Reiders banning is a result of a self fulfilling prophecy.
Self-fulfilling prophecy, also known as interpersonal expectancy effect, refers to the phenomenon whereby a person's or a group's expectation for the behavior of another person or group serves actually to bring about the prophesied or expected behavior.

the fact that he doesn't talk enough to make the admins happy should not be grounds for perma.
yes, he needs work as a player, and some of us are trying to get him there. let us cook longer. the fact that scriptis(the admin that sybil didn't know it needed) is trying to work with this guy should open up a lot of other admins' eyes.

[johnfulpwillard]

Reider actually grasping at straws when they literally have to say how many say logs they have in a round to prove they "roleplay"
Also they played 6 different rounds between the two they linked, were there no better examples they were able to show between them? Or the 7 rounds between the last one they linked and the last one before they were banned.
(Using https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/ckey/maskenary as reference here)

What a stupid way of deciding whether you are good for "roleplay" or not, say logs is not all there is to interacting with other players anyway.

[iwishforducks]

there’s nothing defendable about reider so everyone here has devolved into making reider a victim

there’s like 100 other players on tgstation that all function better than him. i think this is a skill issue

[Vekter]

More thoughts:
People don't want to be around Meza. It's pretty clear why, because everybody thinks they are a 'greytiding shit'. They get pretty much valided, and because of there reputation, it's ok, as it's 'just meza'. This toxic cycle of everything just shitting on Reider whenever they get brought up means they never really have a chance to roleplay. They have never been shown good RP, just collecting bans for not RPing, and I would assume they have tried once, and just got fucking dunked by everybody else.

this.
if you can establish a pattern of NOT TREATING THEM LIKE A FUCKING MONGOLOID every encounter, they will very quickly lighten up

I can't tell you how many times ive observed reider and seen people fucking with him JUST BECAUSE ITS REIDER.
I can't tell you how many times ive witnessed players that should have been banned for metagrudging the guy IC.

the IC spreads to OOC which infests more and more IC

i've watched reider in command roles before and the fucking amount of literal ROVING BANDS OF TIDERS that fuck with him just "because its reider" rivals the amount that would go after dean ivanov, BOTH OF WHOM would ALSO go into departments and steal shit instead of asking for it. dean was ALSO just as mute when it comes to roleplay as Reider (sorry dean i love you)


TLDR-

Reiders banning is a result of a self fulfilling prophecy.
Self-fulfilling prophecy, also known as interpersonal expectancy effect, refers to the phenomenon whereby a person's or a group's expectation for the behavior of another person or group serves actually to bring about the prophesied or expected behavior.

the fact that he doesn't talk enough to make the admins happy should not be grounds for perma.
yes, he needs work as a player, and some of us are trying to get him there. let us cook longer. the fact that scriptis(the admin that sybil didn't know it needed) is trying to work with this guy should open up a lot of other admins' eyes.

For the record, I can and have bonked people for treating Reider (among other "known shitters") differently based on prior knowledge. That's just objectively against the rules. Like I said earlier, as far as I'm aware, the last time anyone in the admin team even talked about helping Reider improve as a player was a year ago. If this is his effort over a year, it's not enough. It's not worth sacrificing everyone else's experience for one player in the hopes they'll get better while they say shit like "i am testing new loadout...""MAGBOOT + ADVANCED INSUL" "+ BATON" in-character and spend pretty much every round being a nuisance to everyone around them. I respect you and understand your perspective, but I'd appreciate if you respected mine - this isn't just because he doesn't talk enough, it's because what talking he does is stupid, inane, OOC bullshit that doesn't pass the sniff test and he's a massive pain in the ass to anyone who even remotely inconveniences him IC.

Bad players are allowed to improve if they show a pattern and willingness to improve. Reider has been banned 26 times and noted 57 times, 25 of which have been over the last year (since Scriptis started trying to rehabilitate them). There's a point where we have to look at it and decide if Reider is just using our good nature against us.

I do want to point out that vekter doesn't seem to know what the adjective "devious" means and says "obviously spamming obscure tiktok memes in ic" which is funny?

He says it enough that I figured it was worth noting; it's not a common word that most people use outside of that context.

kicking reider in the shins and telling him to get good is funny

this ban is not it sucks

You can only kick someone in the shins so many times before it becomes obvious that it's not working.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

More thoughts:
People don't want to be around Meza. It's pretty clear why, because everybody thinks they are a 'greytiding shit'. They get pretty much valided, and because of there reputation, it's ok, as it's 'just meza'. This toxic cycle of everything just shitting on Reider whenever they get brought up means they never really have a chance to roleplay. They have never been shown good RP, just collecting bans for not RPing, and I would assume they have tried once, and just got fucking dunked by everybody else.

this.
if you can establish a pattern of NOT TREATING THEM LIKE A FUCKING MONGOLOID every encounter, they will very quickly lighten up

I can't tell you how many times ive observed reider and seen people fucking with him JUST BECAUSE ITS REIDER.
I can't tell you how many times ive witnessed players that should have been banned for metagrudging the guy IC.

the IC spreads to OOC which infests more and more IC

i've watched reider in command roles before and the fucking amount of literal ROVING BANDS OF TIDERS that fuck with him just "because its reider" rivals the amount that would go after dean ivanov, BOTH OF WHOM would ALSO go into departments and steal shit instead of asking for it. dean was ALSO just as mute when it comes to roleplay as Reider (sorry dean i love you)


TLDR-

Reiders banning is a result of a self fulfilling prophecy.
Self-fulfilling prophecy, also known as interpersonal expectancy effect, refers to the phenomenon whereby a person's or a group's expectation for the behavior of another person or group serves actually to bring about the prophesied or expected behavior.

the fact that he doesn't talk enough to make the admins happy should not be grounds for perma.
yes, he needs work as a player, and some of us are trying to get him there. let us cook longer. the fact that scriptis(the admin that sybil didn't know it needed) is trying to work with this guy should open up a lot of other admins' eyes.

For the record, I can and have bonked people for treating Reider (among other "known shitters") differently based on prior knowledge. That's just objectively against the rules. Like I said earlier, as far as I'm aware, the last time anyone in the admin team even talked about helping Reider improve as a player was a year ago. If this is his effort over a year, it's not enough. It's not worth sacrificing everyone else's experience for one player in the hopes they'll get better while they say shit like "i am testing new loadout...""MAGBOOT + ADVANCED INSUL" "+ BATON" in-character and spend pretty much every round being a nuisance to everyone around them. I respect you and understand your perspective, but I'd appreciate if you respected mine - this isn't just because he doesn't talk enough, it's because what talking he does is stupid, inane, OOC bullshit that doesn't pass the sniff test and he's a massive pain in the ass to anyone who even remotely inconveniences him IC.

I do want to point out that vekter doesn't seem to know what the adjective "devious" means and says "obviously spamming obscure tiktok memes in ic" which is funny?

He says it enough that I figured it was worth noting; it's not a common word that most people use outside of that context.

kicking reider in the shins and telling him to get good is funny

this ban is not it sucks

You can only kick someone in the shins so many times before it becomes obvious that it's not working.

maybe i just say devious an unusual amount and have an inflated idea of its commonness

[InternJohn]

I've played with Reider for a while now, and I frankly do not understand the flak he gets. He's good at the game, he's good at combat, he enjoys fighting and is good at it. That said, I've seen him develop as a person over time as we've played. He powergamed less and less, RP'd more and more. So this weird vertical death slice you've made of the man's long career on SS13 feels more vicious than it does helpful.

I've had to deal with FAAAAAAAR worse characters than Reider, and I say that as both a tot player and a security player. I've had HoS players that are maliciously and purposefully incompetent, who straight up grief the entire department as a gimmick. I've had HoS players who torture someone for 40 minutes, failing to do their job to live out their weird sadistic RP. And an endless supply of greyshirts who will silently tide you for no reason. So he's an odd one to single out, especially since I've seen him get better.

The biggest complaint I could have about Reider is that he goes SSD when he gets bored or loses. That I could understand being upset over, though I know a few people who do that.

Honestly this ban makes no sense to me, he's an efficient player, I'd prefer him over a lot of other people I deal with on Sybil. Getting upset at Reider using terms like "i am testing new loadout...""MAGBOOT + ADVANCED INSUL" "+ BATON" in LRP is mind boggling to me. And yeah, I see people treat Reider badly all the time, to the point to where he had to alias a number of times to catch a break. People treat people badly just because they are good at the game. I see Dean get picked on for also being good at the game. There is this weird stigma when it comes to players who are actually GOOD at combat, and I end up experiencing it myself as well.

The game is brutal and it's coded to be brutal purposefully, the balance is not in favor of sitting there monologuing while 'sticking someone up' for 5 minutes. I myself have died at the hands of Reider valid hunting me once, when I tried to RP. I wanted to do a standoff with security, and Reider wordlessly snuck in behind me, bola'd me, and killed me with a cleaver. That taught me an important lesson more than anything about being more cautious. I was upset with Reider, but now I'm not. It's just part of the game, and that works against people who are good at it.

I watched Reider become better about all these complaints as I've known him and played with him. He WAS getting better, and I think it's entirely unfair that you've just been stalking him with a microscope waiting for him to slip up. I know a LOT of players who would get into trouble if you did that.

[Vekter]

I've had to deal with FAAAAAAAR worse characters than Reider, and I say that as both a tot player and a security player. I've had HoS players that are maliciously and purposefully incompetent, who straight up grief the entire department as a gimmick. I've had HoS players who torture someone for 40 minutes, failing to do their job to live out their weird sadistic RP. And an endless supply of greyshirts who will silently tide you for no reason. So he's an odd one to single out, especially since I've seen him get better.

This is part of an attempt to make the experience on Sybil better overall. It's very clear that things have deteriorated to where newer people think that this is the norm, but it's not. If you are dealing with issues like this on the regular, you need to be reporting them so we can further work towards raising the quality of play to somewhere we're comfortable with. I understand the mentality people have that they don't want to be snitches or don't think it's worth reporting it, but it's better for the server as a whole if we can help bring things back to where they once were.

[InternJohn]

This is part of an attempt to make the experience on Sybil better overall. It's very clear that things have deteriorated to where newer people think that this is the norm, but it's not. If you are dealing with issues like this on the regular, you need to be reporting them so we can further work towards raising the quality of play to somewhere we're comfortable with. I understand the mentality people have that they don't want to be snitches or don't think it's worth reporting it, but it's better for the server as a whole if we can help bring things back to where they once were.

But it has become the norm, and I don't believe administration is the way to deal with this being the norm. It's not the community's fault that the game plays this way. You are always going to end up with people developing into this kind of player because that's how the game WANTS you to play. I myself have been changed into a wordless killing machine by the simple nature of TGstation's combat. Granted I'm not as far gone as Reider or Axle or some of the others, but it's still what the system does to you.

The best way to stop this tiding epidemic, is through gameplay changes, not heavy handed administration.

For example, during the April 1st PR, I saw almost no tiding, because all the departments had their own security to stop the tiding. There are many ways to help alleviate this STYLE of gameplay, but I don't think Reider is fully at fault, and I don't believe this ban is justified. He was getting better, slowly, but he was. I haven't even known him THAT long and I could tell.

[Kendrickorium]

More thoughts:
People don't want to be around Meza. It's pretty clear why, because everybody thinks they are a 'greytiding shit'. They get pretty much valided, and because of there reputation, it's ok, as it's 'just meza'. This toxic cycle of everything just shitting on Reider whenever they get brought up means they never really have a chance to roleplay. They have never been shown good RP, just collecting bans for not RPing, and I would assume they have tried once, and just got fucking dunked by everybody else.

this.
if you can establish a pattern of NOT TREATING THEM LIKE A FUCKING MONGOLOID every encounter, they will very quickly lighten up

I can't tell you how many times ive observed reider and seen people fucking with him JUST BECAUSE ITS REIDER.
I can't tell you how many times ive witnessed players that should have been banned for metagrudging the guy IC.

the IC spreads to OOC which infests more and more IC

i've watched reider in command roles before and the fucking amount of literal ROVING BANDS OF TIDERS that fuck with him just "because its reider" rivals the amount that would go after dean ivanov, BOTH OF WHOM would ALSO go into departments and steal shit instead of asking for it. dean was ALSO just as mute when it comes to roleplay as Reider (sorry dean i love you)


TLDR-

Reiders banning is a result of a self fulfilling prophecy.
Self-fulfilling prophecy, also known as interpersonal expectancy effect, refers to the phenomenon whereby a person's or a group's expectation for the behavior of another person or group serves actually to bring about the prophesied or expected behavior.

the fact that he doesn't talk enough to make the admins happy should not be grounds for perma.
yes, he needs work as a player, and some of us are trying to get him there. let us cook longer. the fact that scriptis(the admin that sybil didn't know it needed) is trying to work with this guy should open up a lot of other admins' eyes.

For the record, I can and have bonked people for treating Reider (among other "known shitters") differently based on prior knowledge. That's just objectively against the rules. Like I said earlier, as far as I'm aware, the last time anyone in the admin team even talked about helping Reider improve as a player was a year ago. If this is his effort over a year, it's not enough. It's not worth sacrificing everyone else's experience for one player in the hopes they'll get better while they say shit like "i am testing new loadout...""MAGBOOT + ADVANCED INSUL" "+ BATON" in-character and spend pretty much every round being a nuisance to everyone around them. I respect you and understand your perspective, but I'd appreciate if you respected mine - this isn't just because he doesn't talk enough, it's because what talking he does is stupid, inane, OOC bullshit that doesn't pass the sniff test and he's a massive pain in the ass to anyone who even remotely inconveniences him IC.

Bad players are allowed to improve if they show a pattern and willingness to improve. Reider has been banned 26 times and noted 57 times, 25 of which have been over the last year (since Scriptis started trying to rehabilitate them). There's a point where we have to look at it and decide if Reider is just using our good nature against us.

I do want to point out that vekter doesn't seem to know what the adjective "devious" means and says "obviously spamming obscure tiktok memes in ic" which is funny?

He says it enough that I figured it was worth noting; it's not a common word that most people use outside of that context.

kicking reider in the shins and telling him to get good is funny

this ban is not it sucks

You can only kick someone in the shins so many times before it becomes obvious that it's not working.

i respect the viewpoint, but i really believe the only people that should be permad from here are the ones that are just downright malicious when it comes to their actions

reider is a brutal, efficient remover of vertical pixelated spacemen in this game, and that's okay
breaking into someones department and stealing shit is okay
him critting some asshole that wont leave him alone is okay
him speaking in unga bunga is okay

but it doesnt feel like anything he does is straight up malicious designed to ruin everyones time around him
just fucking ask the guy in game to politely go away or just give him what he wants
"but he doesnt go away kendrick!!"
are you SURE?
have you T R I E D?

i can't defend that amount of notes and bans, but i can say that i enjoy having the guy around, and he's just not as bad as everyone makes him out to be ya know
he is a falcon, a beautiful bird of prey, to be pointed in a direction and commanded to kill (like dean)
and it's okay to have people like that around, especially when they are trying to get better

i can understand the hate, but i'm honestly really interested in Timber's Closing Thoughts™ on this one

[Kendrickorium]

I've had to deal with FAAAAAAAR worse characters than Reider, and I say that as both a tot player and a security player. I've had HoS players that are maliciously and purposefully incompetent, who straight up grief the entire department as a gimmick. I've had HoS players who torture someone for 40 minutes, failing to do their job to live out their weird sadistic RP. And an endless supply of greyshirts who will silently tide you for no reason. So he's an odd one to single out, especially since I've seen him get better.

This is part of an attempt to make the experience on Sybil better overall. It's very clear that things have deteriorated to where newer people think that this is the norm, but it's not. If you are dealing with issues like this on the regular, you need to be reporting them so we can further work towards raising the quality of play to somewhere we're comfortable with. I understand the mentality people have that they don't want to be snitches or don't think it's worth reporting it, but it's better for the server as a whole if we can help bring things back to where they once were.

okay, this is honestly a really good point, especially with summer just around the corner

[Vekter]

i respect the viewpoint, but i really believe the only people that should be permad from here are the ones that are just downright malicious when it comes to their actions

At what point does someone's refusal or failure to improve become malice in and of itself? If you give someone a year to stop shitting on the carpet and they keep doing it but get slightly closer to the bathroom every time and sometimes they get to the toilet before it happens, at what point does it become acceptable to just ask them to go shit in someone else's house?

[Kendrickorium]

i respect the viewpoint, but i really believe the only people that should be permad from here are the ones that are just downright malicious when it comes to their actions

At what point does someone's refusal or failure to improve become malice in and of itself? If you give someone a year to stop shitting on the carpet and they keep doing it but get slightly closer to the bathroom every time and sometimes they get to the toilet before it happens, at what point does it become acceptable to just ask them to go shit in someone else's house?

lol good analogy

[NoxVS]

Nobody uses your definition. Nobody. You don't go to an HRP server and see the kind of roleplay you are talking about.

Well good id hope there wouldnt be any servers that involves everyone acting the same way, having both introvert and extroverts goes a long way to setting a fun environment.

Conflict is important in a round, but that's also why we have antags, if this person solely comes to the game to wordlessly create conflict they are just fabricating conflict so they can line toe self antagging.

i wrote an entire paragraph explaining how the lrp culture has caused the degeneration of antag gimmick play styles & how it affects how people play & start conflicts, only to realize it made 0 sense given the context and sounded like deluded ramblings

Please share these deluded ramblings I’m genuinely interested

[LeekiLoku]

Okay so this is absolutely ass. Reider shouldnt get QC'ed for not talking, yes he does deserve to get QC'ed but not just because he doesnt talk. HE DOES RP, ive played at least 10 rounds in recent times where he would RP, such as when there was lawyer overflow, and had a talk with a counselor. Ive played other games with him for like 2 months, he is a joy to be around. It will be sad not to see him on sybil for the rest of this term, the game will just be dull. We need some sort of conflict, hell ill be honest i do worst shit then THE reider meza. I full stripped a HoS for killing my dog, I gibbed 8 people in cross fire after a CE killed my dog. That shit should have got me banned but it didnt, SO FREE REIDER (or just put em on parole, he isnt that bad. you should just get used to it)

EDIT: reider knew his impending doom, so he made me buy em terraria and yomi hustle.

[Chadley]

I like Reider as a person, immensely I'm not too fond of his playstyle, all the choices he makes have turned his character in itself into a kill bait. Grabbing slips and a medkit and doing the do. His development has clearly been an upward trend (from sec that kills valids wordlessly), but from what I've seen of him, even recently, is a trend of stealing shoes, slipping people frequently, and then attacking them if they take his soap or peels and doesn't say a word. It's an extremely hard dynamic to get behind since if you try and fight him about it his Cheshire grin will grow to sizeable proportions and you'll probably get your dick kicked.

I want Maskenary to be part of the community, not Reider.

Reider represents rolling every antag type so you can murderbone every round.
Reider represents over-escalating situations and getting into these constant fights.
Reider represents a frustrating static that is almost synonymous with the tide.

It seems like a lot of people have faith in Maskenary, but the admins have exhausted the chances. Maybe this is a blessing in disguise. Maybe this shows that we should all think about how we play the game and how it affects others.

Maybe the real Reid was the friends we made along the way.

[LeekiLoku]

I like Reider as a person, immensely I'm not too fond of his playstyle, all the choices he makes have turned his character in itself into a kill bait. Grabbing slips and a medkit and doing the do. His development has clearly been an upward trend (from sec that kills valids wordlessly), but from what I've seen of him, even recently, is a trend of stealing shoes, slipping people frequently, and then attacking them if they take his soap or peels and doesn't say a word. It's an extremely hard dynamic to get behind since if you try and fight him about it his Cheshire grin will grow to sizeable proportions and you'll probably get your dick kicked.

I want Maskenary to be part of the community, not Reider.

Reider represents rolling every antag type so you can murderbone every round.
Reider represents over-escalating situations and getting into these constant fights.
Reider represents a frustrating static that is almost synonymous with the tide.

It seems like a lot of people have faith in Maskenary, but the admins have exhausted the chances. Maybe this is a blessing in disguise. Maybe this shows that we should all think about how we play the game and how it affects others.

Maybe the real Reid was the friends we made along the way.

He plays LOL so that explains it.

[Chadley]

snip

He plays LOL so that explains it.

So it goes.

ALSO

We need some sort of conflict, hell ill be honest i do worst shit then THE reider meza.

We call that incriminating little bro.

When are we bringing back ban requests?

[Epicgamer545]

Haven’t even had an experience with Reider before. I refuse to throw in my cents.

Cope.

[datorangebottle]

Maybe the real Reid was the friends we made along the way.

Maybe the real Reid was the shadow legends we found along the way.
.
.
.
No I am not going to apologize for that stupid joke.

[TheRex9001]

My only experiences with Reider was him starting a civil war after gulagging the captain and one round were he saved 2 heads of staff but in the process got so many people mad at sec it was insane.

[ekaterina]

I said this on Timber's bans' peanut and I'll say it again: banning someone for no specific reason is deranged

the fact that people will use this as an excuse to shit on vekter specifically, despite the fact that qc bans like this are something no admin would be confident trying to pull off without knowing they can convince a good amount of headmins/other admins, is a great example of why admins dont always have the balls to actually take action on players a lot of the time

Admins being afraid to take action is not a bad thing and it's weird that you speak as if it is. Those in power should fear the people, not the other way around.

And I find it even harder to believe that mrp mindset isnt why they are the one who is banning reider.

I agree. Reider is just an average Terry assistant. Vekter is out of touch.

Conflict is important in a round, but that's also why we have antags

Greenshit has entered the chat. Self-antags save security's fun on greenshit rounds.

I can't tell you how many times ive observed reider and seen people fucking with him JUST BECAUSE ITS REIDER.

Absolutely. I was in a round recently where people were cheering in comms upon learning Reider had died, just because it's Reider. Not even Lisa Green gets this much hate.

there’s nothing defendable about reider so everyone here has devolved into making reider a victim

... because he is a victim, both of players undermining his "improvement" and now of admin abuse.

In closing, it was the decision of multiple admins (including two headmins)

Who's the good headmin? Is it Misdoubtful or is it Kieth?

[Vekter]

Conflict is important in a round, but that's also why we have antags

Greenshit has entered the chat. Self-antags save security's fun on greenshit rounds.

I refuse to interact with the rest of your post because it's stupid, but FYI there's a policy thread already up talking about removing greenshifts for this exact reason.

[ekaterina]

I refuse to interact with the rest of your post because it's stupid

Calling your opposition's remarks 'stupid' does not suddenly, magically, make you right nor does it replace a proper counter-argument.

[saprasam]

Nobody uses your definition. Nobody. You don't go to an HRP server and see the kind of roleplay you are talking about.

Well good id hope there wouldnt be any servers that involves everyone acting the same way, having both introvert and extroverts goes a long way to setting a fun environment.

Conflict is important in a round, but that's also why we have antags, if this person solely comes to the game to wordlessly create conflict they are just fabricating conflict so they can line toe self antagging.

i wrote an entire paragraph explaining how the lrp culture has caused the degeneration of antag gimmick play styles & how it affects how people play & start conflicts, only to realize it made 0 sense given the context and sounded like deluded ramblings

Please share these deluded ramblings I’m genuinely interested

i deleted the entire paragraph in my realization but i can paraphrase it

"it is worth noting that lrp servers have accidentally nurtured an environment where playing gimmicks or otherwise not efficiently will invariably get you killed, which has caused a noticable shift in how people perceive, play, and act as antags, and due to how a lot of the new players aren't incentivized to go loud or do... anything... it has caused a major shift in self-antagging to provide the means of any sort of ingame conflict.
this has the potential to explain why reider plays the way he does,if not for the fact that i went all the way to 2019 only to realize. "oh. he logged out of a ton of rounds before they even ended with minimal interaction in the first place."

i unfortunately do not remember the rest, but intern john's message has a very good statement of what i was intending to say, without the delusion from being sleep deprived

Honestly this ban makes no sense to me, he's an efficient player, I'd prefer him over a lot of other people I deal with on Sybil. Getting upset at Reider using terms like "i am testing new loadout...""MAGBOOT + ADVANCED INSUL" "+ BATON" in LRP is mind boggling to me. And yeah, I see people treat Reider badly all the time, to the point to where he had to alias a number of times to catch a break. People treat people badly just because they are good at the game. I see Dean get picked on for also being good at the game. There is this weird stigma when it comes to players who are actually GOOD at combat, and I end up experiencing it myself as well.

The game is brutal and it's coded to be brutal purposefully, the balance is not in favor of sitting there monologuing while 'sticking someone up' for 5 minutes. I myself have died at the hands of Reider valid hunting me once, when I tried to RP. I wanted to do a standoff with security, and Reider wordlessly snuck in behind me, bola'd me, and killed me with a cleaver. That taught me an important lesson more than anything about being more cautious. I was upset with Reider, but now I'm not. It's just part of the game, and that works against people who are good at it.

I watched Reider become better about all these complaints as I've known him and played with him. He WAS getting better, and I think it's entirely unfair that you've just been stalking him with a microscope waiting for him to slip up. I know a LOT of players who would get into trouble if you did that.

while kendrickorium also brings up a good point about how reider, when he isn't constantly being harassed for "being reider" is a generally amiable person to be around, and i have experienced this exact thing by interacting with him.

More thoughts:
People don't want to be around Meza. It's pretty clear why, because everybody thinks they are a 'greytiding shit'. They get pretty much valided, and because of there reputation, it's ok, as it's 'just meza'. This toxic cycle of everything just shitting on Reider whenever they get brought up means they never really have a chance to roleplay. They have never been shown good RP, just collecting bans for not RPing, and I would assume they have tried once, and just got fucking dunked by everybody else.

this.
if you can establish a pattern of NOT TREATING THEM LIKE A FUCKING MONGOLOID every encounter, they will very quickly lighten up

I can't tell you how many times ive observed reider and seen people fucking with him JUST BECAUSE ITS REIDER.
I can't tell you how many times ive witnessed players that should have been banned for metagrudging the guy IC.

the IC spreads to OOC which infests more and more IC

i've watched reider in command roles before and the fucking amount of literal ROVING BANDS OF TIDERS that fuck with him just "because its reider" rivals the amount that would go after dean ivanov, BOTH OF WHOM would ALSO go into departments and steal shit instead of asking for it. dean was ALSO just as mute when it comes to roleplay as Reider (sorry dean i love you)


TLDR-

Reiders banning is a result of a self fulfilling prophecy.
Self-fulfilling prophecy, also known as interpersonal expectancy effect, refers to the phenomenon whereby a person's or a group's expectation for the behavior of another person or group serves actually to bring about the prophesied or expected behavior.

the fact that he doesn't talk enough to make the admins happy should not be grounds for perma.
yes, he needs work as a player, and some of us are trying to get him there. let us cook longer. the fact that scriptis(the admin that sybil didn't know it needed) is trying to work with this guy should open up a lot of other admins' eyes.

the fact that reider was banned for "not interacting in the roleplay game" is absurd to me. many people play in very similar ways, actively avoiding all interaction. there is zero ruling on people being banned for being player-averse.
he reminds me of how i played a few years ago. a greyshit with almost the exact same mindset.

hell, after a few years of not playing i came back with an entirely different mindset to playing ss13 [granted. i still validhunt but i do not go out of my way to be a monumental shitter unless i am pissed] (i think kendrick can also vouch for this because i remember them being around during the shitter era). in which case, i don't see why reider doesn't deserve the chance to come back, even with something like parole.

maybe the break is good for reider. he can come back in a year with a vouch and a different mindset

this still sounds like deluded and maddened ramblings

[InternJohn]

As I touched on in my previous post here, I believe Reider is a slave to his own reputation. People just antagonize him for no reason, I've been witness to this many times. I have never really ever had an issue with Reider, personally. I've played many shifts around him, I've fought against him, I've worked with him. He has never given me reason to dislike him or how he plays besides the SSD thing. Demanding some level of arbitrary 'You must RP THIS MUCH' quota is quite silly to me.

As I said, this ban just feels vicious and unfair to the man. I imagine if you put 80% of the Sybil players under a microscope you would find reasons to get rid of them, it's LRP. The best way to fix this perceived problem of chronic tiding is through gameplay changes, not administration, because ultimately the gameplay guides you into a mental state of silent killing and thievery.

[Vekter]

I refuse to interact with the rest of your post because it's stupid

Calling your opposition's remarks 'stupid' does not suddenly, magically, make you right nor does it replace a proper counter-argument.

The problem with this is that I don't care enough about your opinion to bother arguing against it.

[Chadley]

ekat singlehandedly disproves the broken clock theory by being wrong every time.

I however pick up the slack by being right every time.

Is Sisyphus happy?

[ekaterina]

I refuse to interact with the rest of your post because it's stupid

Calling your opposition's remarks 'stupid' does not suddenly, magically, make you right nor does it replace a proper counter-argument.

The problem with this is that I don't care enough about your opinion to bother arguing against it.

Which doesn't make you right, only wilfully wrong... obviously.

I however pick up the slack by being right every time.

You are right exactly zero percent of the time.

[conrad]

I admire Ekaterina's willpower to be wrong all the time and die on every hill they stand.

[ekaterina]

I admire Ekaterina's willpower to be wrong all the time and die on every hill they stand.

You can repeat the lie that I'm wrong over and over as many times as you want and I'll still be right.
Plug your ears and cover your eyes while you do it so you can look even more like a child throwing a tantrum over hearing the truth that you dislike.