Friendly-Not-Friendly Antags and RPR 6 (MRP)

[Cheshify]

I like Roleplay Rule 6, it creates an environment where players are capable of using antagonist roles to roleplay and sec doesn't immediately need to kill every antag doing a gimmick.

6. Deal with the bad guys in proportion to their crime(s).
Restricted antagonists (or crewmembers) should be handled in proportion to their committed crimes. The decision to execute an antagonist should have good in-character reasoning based on their crimes and the state of the shift. Punishments against antagonists that repeatedly commit minor crimes may be escalated. Only antagonists that have committed the most severe crimes may be met with immediate execution.

Security members are expected to consider the full range of punishment options available when dealing with antags. This includes (but is not always limited to) pacification, implants, timed brig sentences, gulag sentences, permabrig, forced borging and execution. Forced borging is considered equivalent to execution in punishment severity.

Sounds good for MRP! You shouldn't be executing antagonists when they have only just started their round and got caught out early. Deconversion as a priority, then permabrig, then possibly execution. This is where an issue arises, however. Some antagonist objectives are long-term harmful (because every antag snowballs into Super Saiyan nowadays but code issue so I digress) but are short-term not harmful. What this results in are antagonists running around doing every single non-harmful objective possible, not caring if people see them, because they know security may not be allowed to escalate any meaningful punishment off of their snowballing, and nobody will ever retaliate at risk of being banned for "validhunting"

So here's the debate: I think the crew as a whole, but especially security, should be allowed to act with more impunity regarding open antagonists doing this "Friendly-Not-Friendly" sort of thing. Maybe an addition to the rules? I feel like this needs a discussion from other players who have noticed the same issues, since I don't explicitly have an answer to this conundrum.

[Super Aggro Crag]

i just want it to be said i am sick and tired of gimmick nukie rounds where they pretend to be "off-station tourists"/"a film crew doing a documentary" et cetera and despite all of them having the lastname MURDERFUCKILL and carrying weaponry the captain and security will defend them and round remove crew members who try to stop them when they ask for a "tour of the nuclear authorization disc" and just hand over the disc and then go "omg i was so surprised they were nukies lol how could i have expected it" when crew memebers are shouting over the radio that the nukies are getting sec officers alone and trying to murder them

[Striders13]

Another huge issue I have with MRP rule 6 is that when caught or hunted, antagonists are actively discouraged from giving chase to security or trying to escape a minor sentence, cause if they do they might get perma'd or executed, and it would be much safer for them to just go to brig willingly, knowing security wouldn't be able to punish them in any meaningful way.

[TheBibleMelts]

i think you said it yourself, this is a code issue. you either have to go full-on execution on discovery or let them go and suffer consequences later. methods for neutering caught antagonists are too few, though i don't know if i'd necessarily enjoy a situation where security becomes as casual about using neutering methods on antagonists as they get about forcefully mindshielding revolutionaries. back before progression traitors existed you could get a good gauge on somebody just by the fact that they hadn't cloaker/esworded half of the station already, but with how much time some antagonists need to bide now it feels foolish to do anything but ruin their round prematurely.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

What objectives do you consider "Non-harmful"?

Kill pet objectives? There is already a headmin ruling that even normal crew can execute people who kill pets, and if the person who killed the pet tries to ahelp, they will be banned instead. Most based ruling in the community tbh.

Bug item objectives? I guess this depends on the item. No one will care about the clown's shoes being bugged, but the Captain's spare ID, reflective trenchcoat from armory, etc.? Easy restricted b and e charge. Maybe even grand theft, depending on the item in question. Easy perma.

Sleeper protocol ain't non-harmful. Kidnapping ain't non-harmful. Sabotaging tcomms is some kind of grand sabotage charge, and probably restricted b and e unless they're an engineer. Beheading ain't non-harmful. Etc.

Really, the only traitor objectives I can think of that Security wouldn't be able to do much about would be the poster/graffiti and bug the clown's shoes objectives. And even then you can give em' a 5 minute sentence for Enemy of the Corporation at the least and implant them. And also they will have made the Clown angry, which is a punishment in and of itself.

So, exactly which objectives besides those 2 or 3 already mentioned do you think that Security should be more empowered to handle? And why do you think that Security should be able to do more about those crimes beyond a moderate Brig sentence and implanting them for being a known traitor?

[dendydoom]

how much leeway you give to antagonists that we have meticulous OOC knowledge of how to recognize is the ancient and unsolvable conundrum of ss13, and the rules surrounding these feel more like good advice than universally applicable gospel. every situation is different and this is both a good and a bad thing. it also ties into other rules: not prepping for antags that you don't have IC evidence of, not powergaming or trying to win at all costs, etc.

generally when someone is upset because they feel like they've been disproportionately killed or validhunted i want to know the timeline of antagonistic choices they made through the round and generally who it's affected. then i would like to know what the intent was behind the person who killed/hunted them. for every degree of separation we can get from "because they're an antag" and toward "because they did x which personally affected me in y way" then we're hitting gold.

heretic is a weird inbetween because they will eventually transform into a round ending threat should they ascend but until then they're a restricted antagonist on mrp. i am of the personal opinion that if you see someone being murdered or someone has tried to kill/sacrifice you then you have a fairly good reason to take matters into your own hands and protect yourself/the victim in that precise moment. otherwise, if there's active security, they should be the ones to track someone down, and if you would like to help then you should offer your help to security and have to follow their rules.

when i used to play sec all day every day then i would RP it as black magic being illegal to perform on company time. that way people who openly did heretic shit, even if they're nonviolent and especially if they did some lame nonsense like ask permission to sacrifice someone to a realm of agony and despair, would get sent downtown. you're not allowed to kidnap employees, even if it's on behalf of the dark gods.

friendtags, but heretic friendtags in particular, should be destroyed utterly. reduce them to subatomic particulate.

there is the argument that heretics are too weak, frail and pathetic early on so immediately catching them out ruins the round for them and make it very difficult to get past the first hurdle. this feels like a code issue, to be honest. give them some more magic missiles or whatever at roundstart.

[sinfulbliss]

methods for neutering caught antagonists are too few

Ou contraire. Since killing them is the norm on LRP, sec has developed quite a few of these “you’re alive but are you really alive” techniques. Including but not limited to:

Spoiler:

- A chem implant filled with a lethal syringe (remotely activated death if they “snowball”)

- A tracking implant (instant tele to them from the teleporter room, at any moment to catch them at will)

- 10 minutes gulag (massive thorn in their side, slows progression)

- Uplink confiscation (totally cucks them but retains their antag status at least)

- TC drain (hard to become Super Saiyan with 0 TC)

- Hypnosis with a hypoflash or interrogation chamber

- A mix of any of these

I like the OP’s idea though, this was a big issue on Fulp for the same reason with tight sec restrictions on dealing with antags, a policy would be useful I think.

[Lacran]

methods for neutering caught antagonists are too few

Ou contraire. Since killing them is the norm on LRP, sec has developed quite a few of these “you’re alive but are you really alive” techniques. Including but not limited to:

Spoiler:

- A chem implant filled with a lethal syringe (remotely activated death if they “snowball”)

- A tracking implant (instant tele to them from the teleporter room, at any moment to catch them at will)

- 10 minutes gulag (massive thorn in their side, slows progression)

- Uplink confiscation (totally cucks them but retains their antag status at least)

- TC drain (hard to become Super Saiyan with 0 TC)

- Hypnosis with a hypoflash or interrogation chamber

- A mix of any of these

I like the OP’s idea though, this was a big issue on Fulp for the same reason with tight sec restrictions on dealing with antags, a policy would be useful I think.

A lot of these wouldn't fly for early-caught antags on mrp.

Tracking implants are used, but are pretty easily mitigated.

[Cheshify]

methods for neutering caught antagonists are too few

Ou contraire. Since killing them is the norm on LRP, sec has developed quite a few of these “you’re alive but are you really alive” techniques. Including but not limited to:

Spoiler:

- A chem implant filled with a lethal syringe (remotely activated death if they “snowball”)

- A tracking implant (instant tele to them from the teleporter room, at any moment to catch them at will)

- 10 minutes gulag (massive thorn in their side, slows progression)

- Uplink confiscation (totally cucks them but retains their antag status at least)

- TC drain (hard to become Super Saiyan with 0 TC)

- Hypnosis with a hypoflash or interrogation chamber

- A mix of any of these

I like the OP’s idea though, this was a big issue on Fulp for the same reason with tight sec restrictions on dealing with antags, a policy would be useful I think.

Good post actually, sadly on MRP you have limits with what you can actually do.

Tracking + Lethal injection would make sense and often does but you find antags can somehow convince med to remove implants (The age old MRP powergaming strat of asking politely)
10 Minutes gulag usually only works on traitors, not often on heretics!
Uplink confiscation isn't possible for heretics, there's heart removal but 9/10 they'll scream "ai hep human harmies".
TC Drain only counts if they have an uplink that's open.
Hypnosis sounds cool but honestly I'm worried I'll get banned if I ever do anything like that as a secoff.

I think a few people bring up good points of this being a code issue (ESPECIALLY WITH HERETICS AND RIFTS, those things should be made actual threats but that's besides the point). I still believe that policy can assist in mitigating the issue. A few of my thoughts below.

Spoiler:

- Stipulating that crew(or just sec?) have relaxed escalation against known/open antagonists.

- Codify sec's ability to reasonably shut down known antagonists using whatever tools are available barring round removal (allowing hypnosis/pacification surgery/heart removal without fear of ban)

[vect0r]

If BEEPIS tech gets me banned for using the chamber that is meant for sec, I am going to get annoyed.

[Timberpoes]

...

- Codify sec's ability to reasonably shut down known antagonists using whatever tools are available barring round removal (allowing hypnosis/pacification surgery/heart removal without fear of ban)

...

This is already baked into RPR6

Security members are expected to consider the full range of punishment options available when dealing with antags. This includes (but is not always limited to) pacification, implants, timed brig sentences, gulag sentences, permabrig, forced borging and execution. Forced borging is considered equivalent to execution in punishment severity.

So not only is it already codified, it's actually an obligation for sec to consider the full range of punishment options available. Pacification isn't used restrictively and covers all attempts to pacify an antag. Removing a heretic's heart would fall under this.

[Timberpoes]

Right. The assumption in ruling here is that this thread is about the antags that are:

running around doing every single non-harmful objective possible, not caring if people see them, because they know security may not be allowed to escalate any meaningful punishment off of their snowballing, and nobody will ever retaliate at risk of being banned for "validhunting".

If security catch an antagonist repeatedly antagonising, they can and should escalate up punishments. So I will re-iterate this part of the existing RPR6:

... Punishments against antagonists that repeatedly commit minor crimes may be escalated ...

This isn't set in stone, but as a general guideline by the third time you've caught an antag doing really dumb, minor, non-harmful basic bitch crimes they should probably be thrown into perma.

Pacification, implants, replacement of heretic hearts, confiscation of potential uplink sources and other catch-and-release techniques etc. etc. etc. are all valid strategies that are proportionate to even some of the most minor crimes from the first time you capture the player.

Poes: Wrote it
Kieth: Approved it