Add "upon being caught" Rule 5 Subsection 2

[Bmon]

Right now Rule 5.2 reads as follows:

Ghosting out, going AFK, suiciding, or logging off when converted to a team antagonist position can result in warnings from an admin; extending to bans for repeated behaviour from an individual. This also extends to when Command/Security mindshield implanting an individual to their side in said modes. At most within team antagonist, it is expected players to not maliciously harm their team's progress and assist if they are able to the best of their abilities.

I believe the first part should be changed from "when converted to a team antagonist position" to "upon being caught or when converted by a team antagonist".
A few servers already have a rule like this in place, it is incredibly lame to abuse your suicide/ghost verbs upon being caught by a team antagonist to deny them a conversion. Simply ahelp after being converted and ask an admin to offer yourself up to the ghosts if you do not wish to play.

[Jackraxxus]

I think this would be a good change. Not for clarity's sake, but to stop people from baiting themselves into rules-lawyering in PMs and getting dunked harder for it.
"But I was not actually converted tho I was just cuffed on an offer rune with 2 cultists adjacent to me "
Death.

[Misdoubtful]

I'd personally be for this change, is there is a better way to word it?

If there is I'm not seeing it.

[Itseasytosee2me]

ghosting bad. suicideing while there are cultists banging at your locked door is ok.

[The Wrench]

I support this, but on the condition the same applies for antagonists caught by security. When I play security nothing makes me sadder than capturing a traitor who then ghosts. Put in at least a little bit of effort, or at least wait till you’re dead.

[Vekter]

I don't like this change. I think people should be able to opt out of being converted if they haven't actually been converted. They're choosing to die instead of help the antags, I don't see a problem with that.

My biggest issue would be where you would draw the line. Would it be okay if someone locked themselves in a room and suicided as cultists were breaking in to convert them? What if they hadn't been caught yet but knew cultists were nearby and didn't want to be converted?

I don't see a gameplay benefit over the RP benefit of being able to choose outright just leaving the round over being converted. The rules should stay as they are now.

[Turbonerd]

I don't like this change. I think people should be able to opt out of being converted if they haven't actually been converted. They're choosing to die instead of help the antags, I don't see a problem with that.

My biggest issue would be where you would draw the line. Would it be okay if someone locked themselves in a room and suicided as cultists were breaking in to convert them? What if they hadn't been caught yet but knew cultists were nearby and didn't want to be converted?

I don't see a gameplay benefit over the RP benefit of being able to choose outright just leaving the round over being converted. The rules should stay as they are now.

I think it would be fine if the person killed themselves by natural means. Ghosting is not RP at all and kinda sucks. Suicide is instant, OP and auto DNRs. Should probably not DNR immediately if they're attempting to get you converted. Just ahelp or ask for a role ban if you really don't want to get converted.

[Rohen_Tahir]

I'd personally be for this change, is there is a better way to word it?

If there is I'm not seeing it.

Maybe "when converted to a team antagonist position or when conversion to a team antagonist position is imminent"?

[Vekter]

Maybe "when converted to a team antagonist position or when conversion to a team antagonist position is imminent"?

But how do you define that? What counts as "imminent"?

[Bmon]

I don't like this change. I think people should be able to opt out of being converted if they haven't actually been converted. They're choosing to die instead of help the antags, I don't see a problem with that.

The only reason someone would suicide immediately after being captured by a conversion antag is if they're being a sore loser and trying to deny the conversion antag any gain from capturing them, it's not fair to the conversion antag who had to go out of their way to capture and try to convert them. Players can already request rolebans if they do not wish to play a conversion antag which will automatically offer themselves to the ghosts upon conversion, that failing they could always ahelp and have it manually done by an admin.

My biggest issue would be where you would draw the line. Would it be okay if someone locked themselves in a room and suicided as cultists were breaking in to convert them? What if they hadn't been caught yet but knew cultists were nearby and didn't want to be converted?

The key word here is caught, if you could have reasonably offed yourself I think it's fine. Was the player in question fighting the cult and only suicided after getting stunlocked? It was probably done out of spitefulness and deserves enforcement.

I don't see a gameplay benefit over the RP benefit of being able to choose outright just leaving the round over being converted. The rules should stay as they are now.

If anything it's bad RP to be committing suicide after being captured. I'll specifically point to Paradise as an example who put this rule under their RP standards, it makes zero sense to be able to kill yourself while you're cuffed and being dragged off by a conversion antag to be converted. Using roleplay as a shield for this type of behaviour is not valid in my eyes for the reasons mentioned above.

[Bmon]

I'd personally be for this change, is there is a better way to word it?

If there is I'm not seeing it.

I think the word captured works better than caught.

Something like:
"Ghosting out, going AFK, suiciding, or logging off upon being captured by a team antagonist or when converted into team antagonist position can result in warnings from an admin; extending to bans for repeated behaviour from an individual. This also extends to when Command/Security mindshield implanting an individual to their side in said modes. At most within team antagonist, it is expected players to not maliciously harm their team's progress and assist if they are able to the best of their abilities.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

Players can already request rolebans if they do not wish to play a conversion antag which will automatically offer themselves to the ghosts upon conversion, that failing they could always ahelp and have it manually done by an admin.

I agree with the general sentiment of the post, but "If you don't like these modes, you CAN just ask admins to make it so that the modes just instantly round remove you with nothing you can do about it, with the added bonus of watching some mouthbreather run around with your name" has never sat right with me and it feels wrong for it to be smugly offered whenever people raise concerns about these modes.

[Bmon]

Players can already request rolebans if they do not wish to play a conversion antag which will automatically offer themselves to the ghosts upon conversion, that failing they could always ahelp and have it manually done by an admin.

I agree with the general sentiment of the post, but "If you don't like these modes, you CAN just ask admins to make it so that the modes just instantly round remove you with nothing you can do about it, with the added bonus of watching some mouthbreather run around with your name" has never sat right with me and it feels wrong for it to be smugly offered whenever people raise concerns about these modes.

Ghosting/Suiciding already round removes you, there's no coming back from it. If you're more concerned about somebody else playing as your character you kind of just have to accept that it'll happen every once and a while, this is the game with paradox clones and changelings after all.

[sinfulbliss]

Right now Rule 5.2 reads as follows:

Ghosting out, going AFK, suiciding, or logging off when converted to a team antagonist position can result in warnings from an admin; extending to bans for repeated behaviour from an individual. This also extends to when Command/Security mindshield implanting an individual to their side in said modes. At most within team antagonist, it is expected players to not maliciously harm their team's progress and assist if they are able to the best of their abilities.

I believe the first part should be changed from "when converted to a team antagonist position" to "upon being caught or when converted by a team antagonist".
A few servers already have a rule like this in place, it is incredibly lame to abuse your suicide/ghost verbs upon being caught by a team antagonist to deny them a conversion. Simply ahelp after being converted and ask an admin to offer yourself up to the ghosts if you do not wish to play.

I have been told before by an admin in a ticket that ghosting before conversion, even without letting an admin know, was okay. If you got converted, however, then you had to ahelp before ghosting since you were a part of a team antag.

I feel like no one should be entitled to having a player forced to play another 20+ minutes with them that they don't enjoy, and that it should be that player's responsibility to find a sub to fill in if they're not up for it. If you haven't converted them then they have no obligation to you and have no allegiance, they're allowed to leave the game at any time IMO.

[Vekter]

... and that it should be that player's responsibility to find a sub to fill in if they're not up for it.

As much as I agree with the point you're making, do you mean it's an admin's responsibility? How would it work if it was a player's?

[sinfulbliss]

... and that it should be that player's responsibility to find a sub to fill in if they're not up for it.

As much as I agree with the point you're making, do you mean it's an admin's responsibility? How would it work if it was a player's?

Oops yeah, I meant to say admin’s there.

[MooCow12]

Code issue, bodies who have had players ghost out of them should just be offered to ghosts upon being converted

All it takes is a variable on an entity be set to true when its sentience is ghosted out , then have it set to false again when a new player takes control/it becomes sentient.

When this variable is true, any changes to faction offers the body

Note that cultists can already offer an already converted body to ghosts if someone ghosts out after being converted by just putting that person on an offering rune.



So (currently) ghosting after you are converted is preferable and I would say perfectly acceptable when it comes to cult.

[Bmon]

Code issue, bodies who have had players ghost out of them should just be offered to ghosts upon being converted

All it takes is a variable on an entity be set to true when its sentience is ghosted out , then have it set to false again when a new player takes control/it becomes sentient.

When this variable is true, any changes to faction offers the body

Note that cultists can already offer an already converted body to ghosts if someone ghosts out after being converted by just putting that person on an offering rune.



So (currently) ghosting after you are converted is preferable and I would say perfectly acceptable when it comes to cult.

Definitely not a single var change, cult would be able to make a hoard of cultists out humanized monkeys or slime clones, same with revs. On top of it what of suiciding?


I see this as an admin issue, no one here wants to force someone to play an antag they don't want to. The only issue I have is when your suicide and ghost opinions are used in a disruptful way to try to get a final "haha this was all for nothing" over a conversion antag when you were obviously about to be converted by them.

[MooCow12]

How would you make a horde of cultists out of monkeys if those monkeys never had a soul in them, the only way this would be exploited is if you use mind magnification helmet then had that person ghost…wait


I think you can already do that

Put a mind mag helmet on a monkey, convert that monkey to cult, tell that monkey to ghost, take the helmet off, offering rune the body which should theoretically still be cult alligned. (As far as i know there is implementation in place that offers souless cultists to ghosts)

Repeat


Eitherway this exploit is irrelevant to my proposal which simply makes it so people that ghosted before conversion can still be converted and offered to ghosts.

[TypicalRig]

Can we extend this policy to people being force borged too? We have a decent amount of people that will sit in an MMI in robotics and wait until the exact second the cyborg suit is finished to ghost just so they can OOCly waste as much of a person's time as possible after getting caught. In the case of an MMI it's blatantly obvious a person is taking the time to borg you, so there's not really an argument against this. At the bare minimum they should be obligated to ahelp for a ghost to take control of their MMI.

[zxaber]

I'd like to state, for the record*, that you cannot suicide while stunned or cuffed. As such, if you're able to use the suicide verb, you're not yet truely caught, and also had the ability to use any other available item to attack or otherwise resist conversion. So this policy should only really apply to ghosting.

*Unless it recently changed

[datorangebottle]

I would also like to contribute that of the conversion antags we have, one group of them has a code solution for people ghosting after being converted.
Unless it was changed, cult can slap a living SSD person on a Revive rune to offer the body to deadchat, costing them nothing except the time/effort to draw and use the rune.

[NecromancerAnne]

Personally I'd be ruling it as inclusive anyway. You're not already denying a conversion/teammate either way, and it is just bad sportsmanship.

[Timberpoes]

What is the line where the admin team goes from "you must do everything you can to avoid being converted or we'll antag ban you" over to "if you prevent your own conversion we'll ban you"?

If that line looks like a spirograph doodle, probably best to just leave things as they are. Especially if there's no really easy way to communicate to a player they just crossed over from the line where they're breaking the rules if they get converted, to the line where they're breaking the rules if they don't get converted.

[Cobby]

i think doing ooc actions like ghosting or suiciding via verb are pretty clear cut actions of misuse. Both indicate you do not want to play the game anymore, they are not meant to be used as a get out card for IC denial.

This is consistent with the policy that AIs cannot suicide verb to avoid subversion but CAN depowerkill themselves to do so.

If you are able to stab yourself to avoid being converted then thats also fine, but you wouldnt realistically do that for certain modes like cult since it would still offer them a shard or whatever.

[Timberpoes]

The suicide verb is generally considered an IC action. Calling it OOC is like arguing that using the say verb to avoid being converted successfully is an OOC action.

It can only be used while alive and while the appropriate set of IC restrictions are met.

It's pretty much a fancy emote at this point. Don't want people using it? Skill issue, restrain them.

[Turbonerd]

The suicide verb is generally considered an IC action. Calling it OOC is like arguing that using the say verb to avoid being converted successfully is an OOC action.

It can only be used while alive and while the appropriate set of IC restrictions are met.

It's pretty much a fancy emote at this point. Don't want people using it? Skill issue, restrain them.

It's OOC because it unbinds their soul and DNRs them.

[NecromancerAnne]

Skill issue, restrain them.

Shame about signaller suicide.

Let's not fall into the trap of enabling sweaty verb-based gameplay of all things. If someone is abusing it too much and seem to have a tendency to do because it is mechanically (crew-sidedly) stronger than conventional suicide/death due to the DNR removing the ghost mobs attachment to the body (a part ic part ooc concept), then we should maybe ask those people to stop. After all, if it matters more to the suicider if they care more about the converter being harmed by their actions than their inability to play, maybe that isn't the best mindset to be approaching the game.

[Cobby]

The suicide verb is generally considered an IC action. Calling it OOC is like arguing that using the say verb to avoid being converted successfully is an OOC action.

It can only be used while alive and while the appropriate set of IC restrictions are met.

It's pretty much a fancy emote at this point. Don't want people using it? Skill issue, restrain them.

No its not? The headmin policy of AI using said verb clearly states its considered an OOC action. Just because it communicates the OOC action in a flavorful way IC doesnt make the action itself an acceptable tool to utilize in character, which is also consistent with the aforementioned policy.

You're free to depower yourself as an AI to put the subverter/traitor on a timer but you shouldn't use the OOC verb to suicide.

[Cheshify]

Don't take OOC reactions in response to IC actions, if you want to suicide to prevent a conversion, that's a skill issue on the cult's part, since they should have had you restrained or stunned. However, if you ghost in response to IC actions, that's taking an OOC out and is not allowed. If you don't want to be a cultist ever, request a cult ban or ask an admin to replace you.

Imagine the police arresting someone and they just go "NO I DONT WANT TO BE ARRESTED" and they instantly go comatose. While funny in the context of ss13, it doesn't work like that.

Cheshify - Wrote it
TheBibleMelts - "thwarting conversion via round removal verbs - fine if it's the suicide verb, not fine if it's the ghost verb."
Fikour - Approved it