[archie700] JupiterJaeden - Certified security classic

[JupiterJaeden]

BYOND account: JupiterJaeden
Character name: Jeff Gaiman
Ban type: Role, security
Ban length: 3 days
Ban reason: Banned from Roles: Head of Security, Warden, Detective, Security Officer for 3 days - In R212860, round removed a naked blood brother, who tried to run away from him after being killed and revived for a kidnapping plot gone wrong, by throwing her into the lava river, after killing her. Said they were dangerous and could be retrieved by subverted borgs and he did not want her revived again, which was why he threw her in. Given leinency due to how understaffed he was, but has been noted to have a history of escalating heavily as security.
Time ban was placed: 2023-08-19 05:36:37
Server you were playing on when banned: Manuel
Round ID in which ban was placed: 212870 (round after incident occurred)
Your side of the story:
Alright so, some context on the round as a whole. For most of the round, it was just me and the det in sec (warden was DC'd). I did get a couple other officers later on but I was mostly still in in the mindset of solo/heavily understaffed sec- particularly since the new officers did not seem to be doing much (funnily this is relevant later). From the brig being bombed early on I had basically just been dealing with a non-stop barrage of stuff. We had confisticated four emags by the point of the incident and the AI had already reported unsynced borgs (not to mention there being a shitton of borgs in general) which is relevant later.

Earlier in the round I had stopped two IDless masked people who were intentionally dressed super shady and ID'd them, it was runa rakoto and mike moffless. At the time after they ID'd without issue I just let them carry on without asking any more questions since they were obviously doing a bit, but I made a mental note that they might be blood brothers.

So I hear the captain calling for help in the kitchen and it's those same two people from way before, runa and mike. I thought both of them had e-guns but apparently it was just mike- in any case, they were both attacking the cap. So immediately I treat this as an attempted murder situation, thinking the captain is either a target or the BBs just want to loot them, and I rush in using flashbangs and lethals. Mike managed to fire a lethal shot off at me as well, but I end up winning the fight. Now at this point, given how the round has gone so far, I consider just leaving them dead or bringing them for MMI, but I chose to have them revived since I don't really want to immediately RR them over a failed murder attempt. But in preparation for permabrigging, I did fullstrip both of them. Also, shuttle got called sometime around this point.

So I ask another officer to stay and help me watch the two, and I'm meandering around medbay a bit trying to heal and such. Not sure exactly when it happened but I guess the officer got bored and ran off, because they were gone when somebody (pretty sure it was a borg) freed runa and they were trying to run away. Mike got dragged off to a surgery room and somehow after that he escaped as well. I managed to re-secure runa in the hallway outside med but since I was already unsure if I should revive them in the first place, I'm now not sure what I should do. However, they keep screaming for help from borgs and if I remember correctly there was a mediborg that tried to drag them away.

I was not sure if the borg was subverted or asimov (I was not even sure if runa was human or felinid) and I don't have any easy way to find out. Runa slipped my grasp multiple times but eventually I get them in a solid cuff grab. So, mike is loose, there are possibly subverted borgs helping both of them/doing other shit, and runa is deadset on escaping. In my mind, I can't handle babysitting runa from borgs or whoever else might be helping her while ALSO trying to deal with these other situations. I basically just decided to reverse my previous tentative decision (I think I even said something IC like "okay you are staying dead this time") and I decide to drag runa out into the nearby wastes in evac, kill her, and toss her in the chapel plasma river, so the borgs could not grab her.

Now, basically right after this happened, I DID end up having to hunt down and kill several emagged borgs (one of whom was trying to plasmaflood the station), and then fight mike and another mediborg in a fucking BRUTAL battle in the armory/brig that I just barely won. I am not saying that events after the fact can be used as a post-hoc justification for prior actions, but when those events are the EXACT same things I was worried about in the first place, I feel that lends some credibility to my argument. I correctly assessed the situation insofar as I would not have been able to handle runa while dealing with those things.

Why you think you should be unbanned: I don't think what I did was an unreasonable course of action given the assumptions I had at the time (which mostly turned out to be correct, except for the one where I assumed the BBs were trying to murder the cap; apparently it was just supposed to be a kidnapping but the line there is quite blurry anyways). As the HOS performing the vast majority of the security work that round, with other issues suddenly becoming more pressing, I made a quick decision to remove an antag who my first interaction with had been outright violence and seemed deadset on escaping rather than any kind of cooperation.

I think there is precedent for similar actions like this on MRP being allowed, including even a recent overturned appeal that I did mention in my ticket with the admin: viewtopic.php?f=34&t=34605. Although the situation is a little different (namely the number of escapists being dealt with at ONCE), I think the general theme is the same- other serious shit on the station is going on, you need to go deal with it, prisoners are trying hard to escape and borgs are helping them.

The admin said in the ticket that one part that specifically bothered him was the plasma lake soft RR, but as for that, I essentially have two reasons. First was that I just wanted to prevent them from getting immediately revived by borgs, and I can't exactly use an access locked door/locker to achieve that against cyborgs. Second was that the shuttle was coming and, speaking honestly, inbound shuttle does change my perception of what a RR really means. I certainly am less concerned about the possibility of leaving people to be revived later since there won't be time for that. This was a situation where I didnt want them to be revived immediately but also knew there wouldn't be time to revive them later- I thought about it quickly and plasmalake was a very easy and nearby solution.
References of good conduct: N/A
Anything else we should know: Given the fact me and the admin had a LONG ticket where I said most of the stuff I stated here, I don't believe either of us are going to change our minds. I really don't want to spend forever debating this so, if this conversation ends up going in circles again like it did in the ticket, I'd like to just request headmin review.

[sinfulbliss]

Relevant policy from MRP Security Policy and Precedents:

The overall status of the station factors in to the severity of committed crimes and the proportionality of security response, an assault on an officer resulting in an arrest is unlikely to be worthy of execution while the station is in perfect shape and security are otherwise unoccupied, but is reasonably worthy of an on-the-spot field execution if it occurs during active assault by war-ops with comms down and half the station torn in half by explosions.

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules#Secu ... Precedents

[Archie700]

Anything else we should know: Given the fact me and the admin had a LONG ticket where I said most of the stuff I stated here, I don't believe either of us are going to change our minds. I really don't want to spend forever debating this so, if this conversation ends up going in circles again like it did in the ticket, I'd like to just request headmin review.

Funny how that works...

I decided to have a talk with other MRP admins at adminbus. The explanation was that given the considerations:

• Runa was an accomplice of Mike Mofless in the kidnapping (whether it looked like attempted murder is arguable) and assaulted an officer trying to free Mike
• Some borgs were subverted and one freed Runa
• Runa decided to flee instead of surrendering at the first opportunity

Runa's actions, along with the state of the shift, just about met the threshold for execution.

Per Roleplay Rule 6

The decision to execute an antagonist should have good in-character reasoning based on their crimes and the state of the shift. Punishments against antagonists that repeatedly commit minor crimes may be escalated.

It seems I had underestimated the "silicon factor" in this incident. While the number of subverted borgs were comparatively low, they change the state of the game exponentially - it is much harder to contain criminals when subverted borgs are roaming around. In this case, the fact that the subverted borg freed Runa meant that it knew about the previous fight, which meant that it could manipulate other borgs to protect her as long as the AI isn't aware of subversion.

With that in mind, I have unbanned you as of this moment and removed the note. You should be able to play security now. I apologise for not giving you a fair shake and consider that a learning experience for handling MRP issues. (trying to do both LRP and MRP is hard)

[Blue142]

Hello, I'm GPAU-264, the subverted borg that released Runa.
I would like to highlight a mild discrepancy I noticed in the final decision of this appeal

In this case, the fact that the subverted borg freed Runa meant that it knew about the previous fight, which meant that it could manipulate other borgs to protect her as long as the AI isn't aware of subversion.

I was indeed subverted, however, I was subverted to round remove Runa and I had no knowledge of any fights she had with security (through I could presume security likely killed her as they brought the bodies in).
I was subverted for Lemon Lime, and they ordered me to round remove Runa
My intention was to free Runa, drag her into maintenance, and then kill her myself. However, once an officer declared intent to kill Runa because they thought I was helping her, I ran with Runa to keep up that appearance.

[Archie700]

Noted, but the intent of your actions mattered little to what happened next.
Regardless, what happened next was Rina being thrown into the river by Jeff because she ran away and there was subverted cyborg involvement.
Whether the Borg was trying to help or kill Rina was something Jeff could not know in a crisis situation such as this.