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viewtopic.php?f=7&p=705624#p70562420 minutes. Can we get any lower?
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viewtopic.php?f=7&p=705624#p705624Armhulen wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 11:08 pmThe Spessmen Times wrote:Prohibition agent Sam Salamander bragged that he could find a metacord in any server in under 30 minutes. In Bagil it took him 21 minutes. In Sybil 17 minutes, and Manuel just 11 minutes. But Terry set the record of 35 seconds. Sam asked an assistant on the arrivals shuttle where to get a discord invite, and the assistant linked him one.
RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2024 3:52 pmIt would somehow manage to pick Birdshot Station for headmin if we did that
I had to fight the urge to start a count with an internal jihad on my mind palace.
Armhulen wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 11:08 pmThe Spessmen Times wrote:Prohibition agent Sam Salamander bragged that he could find a metacord in any server in under 30 minutes. In Bagil it took him 21 minutes. In Sybil 17 minutes, and Manuel just 11 minutes. But Terry set the record of 35 seconds. Sam asked an assistant on the arrivals shuttle where to get a discord invite, and the assistant linked him one.
RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2024 3:52 pmIt would somehow manage to pick Birdshot Station for headmin if we did that
I could have sworn that by our powers combined we created a ruling that all administrative matters are handled in game where there's a record.Pepper wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 10:10 pmThe ticket was opened at three in the morning and was responded to the next day. The reason it's dragged out so long is because Vekter closed the ticket then rebwoinked sinful for the same thing like 10 hours later.NoxVS wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 10:01 pm
It's a discord ticket. The platform where neither party is always going to be there at the same time. You can cover twelve hours of discord discussion with 3 messages.
I am going to take a wild guess that it wasn't twelve hours of constant discussion in which Vekter had a gun pointed at Sinful the entire time, demanding immediate responses. If the ticket dragged on for twelve hours, eleven of those were probably spent waiting for the other person to respond.
I understand what happened here, I was trying to see what else you said in this thread so I went to your posts and you were quoting the line "Chloral Hydrate is nonlethal in the same way a stun baton is nonlethal". For some reason it didn't have it in the quote box but I can see what happened. Sorry about that, you are being consistent even if I think your reading of escalation policy is wrong.
We have an alternative setup on Discord with a ticketing system that can be used in lieu of in-game tickets. It's how we handle Discord issues, but admins can also use it to handle in-game issues when players aren't in-game.
I also didn't mention playtime, of which you don't have enough to be posting here so why don't you roll your ass back to the git fruit.oranges wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 11:20 pm From how hard pepper was pushing the "the other person deserved it because they were creepy IC" angle, I assumed sinfulbliss was permabanned, only to discover it was simply a note???? what on earth?
either way character assassinating an admin for their part in the ban is not going to help your case.
Also boot is it possible for you to post in a ban appeal without mentioning the l word or the filter?
Lower your tone with me if your tracked play time doesn't look like this:Timonk wrote:You have clearly never seen his dickWesoda25 wrote:Genuinely think they should be blacklisted.
Flatulent wrote:of course you can change religion doing it while islamic however makes you lose your head from happiness
Boot wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 11:25 pmI also didn't mention playtime, of which you don't have enough to be posting here so why don't you roll your ass back to the git fruit.oranges wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 11:20 pm From how hard pepper was pushing the "the other person deserved it because they were creepy IC" angle, I assumed sinfulbliss was permabanned, only to discover it was simply a note???? what on earth?
either way character assassinating an admin for their part in the ban is not going to help your case.
Also boot is it possible for you to post in a ban appeal without mentioning the l word or the filter?
Yeah Starsector posting can be funny when the thread is reaching its conclusion but the issue is still ongoing and it is related to a serious issue to the point that I don’t think it should happen at all in this thread.Timberpoes wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 10:50 pm I'd be careful with premature Starsectoring. The cost of having counters banned from derailing peanuts is that Starsectorites may also find their classic mode of derailling peanuts gets treated the same.
My ex's husband hated it when I prematurely Starsectored all over the place.
Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 5:11 pm I assume he did it elsewhere because it's fucking goofball and he never half-asses his shitty ideas, he full asses them so both cheeks are absolutely slathered in shit
It's ok to disagree. Notes and bans are all case by case (except for some clear cut cases but those are pretty rare) and on the vast majority of cases appeals are bespoke.Boot wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 11:03 pmI understand what happened here, I was trying to see what else you said in this thread so I went to your posts and you were quoting the line "Chloral Hydrate is nonlethal in the same way a stun baton is nonlethal". For some reason it didn't have it in the quote box but I can see what happened. Sorry about that, you are being consistent even if I think your reading of escalation policy is wrong.
Armhulen wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 11:08 pmThe Spessmen Times wrote:Prohibition agent Sam Salamander bragged that he could find a metacord in any server in under 30 minutes. In Bagil it took him 21 minutes. In Sybil 17 minutes, and Manuel just 11 minutes. But Terry set the record of 35 seconds. Sam asked an assistant on the arrivals shuttle where to get a discord invite, and the assistant linked him one.
RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2024 3:52 pmIt would somehow manage to pick Birdshot Station for headmin if we did that
Conrad as an admin who has talked with many in the internal discussion tower. You've done this for months now, you got a better finger on the pulse of what they think then I and that has shaped how you view the rules. Can you tell me what you think "to avenge damage" is talking about in the escalation rules? It goes out of its way to say OR recover stolen items so clearly just nickin something wouldn't apply here. If it doesn't apply to dismembering then what does it apply to?conrad wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 12:22 amIt's ok to disagree. Notes and bans are all case by case (except for some clear cut cases but those are pretty rare) and on the vast majority of cases appeals are bespoke.Boot wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 11:03 pmI understand what happened here, I was trying to see what else you said in this thread so I went to your posts and you were quoting the line "Chloral Hydrate is nonlethal in the same way a stun baton is nonlethal". For some reason it didn't have it in the quote box but I can see what happened. Sorry about that, you are being consistent even if I think your reading of escalation policy is wrong.
I'll tell you though, my reading of escalation rules aren't my own. I formulate very few of the opinions I voice myself. I take them from more acknowledged admins than me and bring them forth to try and bring order to chaos. I've been yelled plenty for interpreting the rules incorrectly, and that has allowed me to, I hope, bring a fairer judgement when drafting a note, ban or even casting my peanut.
You might have your own formulated opinion of escalation policy, or any rule for that matter, but that won't mean jack shit if you fail to convince the admin that noted/banned you, and perhaps the involved headmins, of why YOUR version of that rule makes more sense than THEIRS.
So whatever interpretation you have, I wish you good luck and plenty of fun on your conflicts. Just be careful to not ruin someone's fun over your own slights and you'll be fine is what I say.
I think the bigger picture here is whether sinful was the agressor towards the chemist or not. The defending party is the one that controls the rate of escalation.Boot wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 12:50 am Conrad as an admin who has talked with many in the internal discussion tower. You've done this for months now, you got a better finger on the pulse of what they think then I and that has shaped how you view the rules. Can you tell me what you think "to avenge damage" is talking about in the escalation rules? It goes out of its way to say OR recover stolen items so clearly just nickin something wouldn't apply here. If it doesn't apply to dismembering then what does it apply to?
Armhulen wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 11:08 pmThe Spessmen Times wrote:Prohibition agent Sam Salamander bragged that he could find a metacord in any server in under 30 minutes. In Bagil it took him 21 minutes. In Sybil 17 minutes, and Manuel just 11 minutes. But Terry set the record of 35 seconds. Sam asked an assistant on the arrivals shuttle where to get a discord invite, and the assistant linked him one.
RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2024 3:52 pmIt would somehow manage to pick Birdshot Station for headmin if we did that
1. I don't think that delimbing them is over escalation because the escalation policy says that delimbing is covered by it leaving the aggressor open to further escalation.conrad wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 1:27 amI think the bigger picture here is whether sinful was the agressor towards the chemist or not. The defending party is the one that controls the rate of escalation.Boot wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 12:50 am Conrad as an admin who has talked with many in the internal discussion tower. You've done this for months now, you got a better finger on the pulse of what they think then I and that has shaped how you view the rules. Can you tell me what you think "to avenge damage" is talking about in the escalation rules? It goes out of its way to say OR recover stolen items so clearly just nickin something wouldn't apply here. If it doesn't apply to dismembering then what does it apply to?
Sinful attacks clown -> aggressor (like you said)
Route A - Chemist is the defending party
Chemist fires syringe to defend their department from a rampaging tider (check tbm's log readout). Syringe is sleepy chem.
Sinful kills chemist. Conflict is over.
Insofar all is forgiven since Sinful didn't know chloral hydrate was nonlethal when in a single syringe quantity.
Sinful then delimbs them. <- This right here is where overescalation warrants a note.
Sinful then comes back and kills them thinking they're an antag. <- This is where I would dayban since "firing at someone who's starting fights where I work" isn't really acting like an antag.
Route B - Chemist is the agressor
Chemist fires syringe 'cos of reasons waves hands maybe he's pretending to be sec. Sinful is the defending party.
Sinful kills chemist. Conflict is over.
Sinful delimbs chemist, prolonging conflict. That's where your avenge damage clause could come into place, since the chemist was the agressor, and he now has cause to go after Sinful. <- I would not note them here.
Sinful then comes back and kills them thinking they're an antag. <- I would STILL dayban Sinful since the earlier conflict is not proof that they're an antag.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
This case stinks of Route A to me, because it's a chemist in medbay stopping a fight. I had an almost identical case with lawlolawl's dayban on Saturday. If you don't have good cause to believe someone is an antag besides "I was fucking around and found out", you don't really have a strong case.
An addendum: I didn't read the logs or the massive essay that is that ban appeal and didn't actually read the bit where sinful comes back to slit the guys throat if that's not a thing that happened please disregard the previous relevant reading.
A closing thought: escalation policy needs a better writeout like a bullet point list 'cos it's not rocket science and people still misinterpret it.
It is, because the defender sets the pace of conflict, not the agressor. If route A is the one we're going for, delimbing after incapacitation is going beyond the conflict. i.e.: you can delimb if you're the defending party and the agressor can later clap your cheeks.
I think I explained it quite well on the route B example and you're not gonna see that response unless you try to shift your perspective.Boot wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 1:58 am 2.This is the third time I've asked this question. What do you think "A player who uses the state of incapacitation to take further action against the downed party chooses to extend the ongoing conflict past its original endpoint, and opens themselves up to further reprisal to avenge damage or recover stolen possessions." means when it talks about avenging damage. I know you say we need to take into account the entire escalation policy and I agree but you seem to just ignore this part. I do agree that this is route A.
Armhulen wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 11:08 pmThe Spessmen Times wrote:Prohibition agent Sam Salamander bragged that he could find a metacord in any server in under 30 minutes. In Bagil it took him 21 minutes. In Sybil 17 minutes, and Manuel just 11 minutes. But Terry set the record of 35 seconds. Sam asked an assistant on the arrivals shuttle where to get a discord invite, and the assistant linked him one.
RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2024 3:52 pmIt would somehow manage to pick Birdshot Station for headmin if we did that
Ok I just think that is abit silly to think that only the defender can trigger the final paragraph but I understand your viewpoint more. I disagree because everything being done to the body COULD have already been done after one person is dead(loss of blood, losing limbs, eye stabs) and we wouldn't divide these up past "does violence" but we now? Seems odd to me but I understand where you stand now. Thanks for running through this train of thought with me. Hope you have a nice rest of the night.conrad wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 2:03 amIt is, because the defender sets the pace of conflict, not the agressor. If route A is the one we're going for, delimbing after incapacitation is going beyond the conflict. i.e.: you can delimb if you're the defending party and the agressor can later clap your cheeks.
I think I explained it quite well on the route B example and you're not gonna see that response unless you try to shift your perspective.Boot wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 1:58 am 2.This is the third time I've asked this question. What do you think "A player who uses the state of incapacitation to take further action against the downed party chooses to extend the ongoing conflict past its original endpoint, and opens themselves up to further reprisal to avenge damage or recover stolen possessions." means when it talks about avenging damage. I know you say we need to take into account the entire escalation policy and I agree but you seem to just ignore this part. I do agree that this is route A.
They control the pace, so they control how far it goes. I personally don't like how the rules are written 'cos they're very open ended and each person can have their own interpretation. This is bad for the players 'cos they're always gonna be subjected to the admin's interpretation, not something easily understood by everyone.As the defending party the rate of escalation increases with you, up to and including violence, while the instigator is always able to respond in kind.
No worries dude we vibin'. Have a good night as well.
Armhulen wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 11:08 pmThe Spessmen Times wrote:Prohibition agent Sam Salamander bragged that he could find a metacord in any server in under 30 minutes. In Bagil it took him 21 minutes. In Sybil 17 minutes, and Manuel just 11 minutes. But Terry set the record of 35 seconds. Sam asked an assistant on the arrivals shuttle where to get a discord invite, and the assistant linked him one.
RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2024 3:52 pmIt would somehow manage to pick Birdshot Station for headmin if we did that
I have like 700 hours in SS13 and I know literally nothing about what the vast majority of chemicals do. My last chemist round had me learning about pH and then walking downstairs, planting a syndicate bomb and blowing myself up because I couldn't take it anymoredendydoom wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 8:07 am if i see someone being beaten while they're in crit then i will often step in to stop the attacker because it seems like a reasonable and human response to seeing violence enacted against someone who can't defend themselves. the exception obviously being if they're dealing with an obvious antagonist but i didn't read anywhere that the clown was in a blood red hardsuit or had an armblade out. i don't personally see someone trying to stop you from killing someone else as antagonistic behaviour given the circumstances.
where i will agree with sinful (gasp) is that knowing how much chloral hydrate will fuck you up is not necessarily common knowledge. i know 15u isn't enough to kill someone but then again i don't know how much IS. i would probably react the same way if it happened in a vacuum, ie i was standing around minding my own business and a doctor shot me in the ass with a mystery syringe, but since the inciting incident was your boot connecting with the skull of a limp and supine clown over and over again, it doesn't take a genius to figure out why they might've tried to take you down from a distance to stop you from doing that.
but i'm an mrp cretin so what do i know? this is an enlightened lrp situation my views are worthless.
I SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO LYNCH PEOPLE FOR BEING SHITTERScSeal wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 4:28 am A clown was being a shitter and then got lynched, and then someone with no way to have any kind of context came in and shot someone involved with a syringe. If they had asked people to fuck off, or there was a general ruckus of trying to get people out, or they had been involved at the start of the conflict, I would understand, but if the take is "if person fights in your dept at all ever you can shit on them" that's frankly silly.
I fully believe the chemist should count as the aggressor in this conflict just because it sets a really shitty precedent otherwise.
I don't want to have to worry about getting my head turned into a crater by some trigger happy scientist just because I ran into his department and killed a ling that was chasing after me.
People should be empowered to fuck with shitters in their department, but c'mon. CMOOOOON.
Bad faith post + unnecessarily mean + reflects poorly on the janitorial staff, mods give this guy a warning and a three day ban as well
I dont cotton to poets, thespians, or philosophizers, them types are too wordy for me....TheBibleMelts wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 5:02 ami write you beautiful poetry and this is how you treat me
i hate words too, let's be friends.cSeal wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 5:03 amI dont cotton to poets, thespians, or philosophizers, them types are too wordy for me....TheBibleMelts wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 5:02 ami write you beautiful poetry and this is how you treat me
if it had stopped with an ass-handing there wouldn't have been a problem, it was the subsequent removal of his limbs that was the reason for the note
Yeah I agree with you a lot here - If someone had asked me whether chloral was lethal a few days ago I would've said yes.TypicalRig wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 2:32 pm Why is it so hard for Bible to believe that Sinful didn't know what chloral did? -snip-
MrStonedOne wrote:I always read dendy's walls of text
https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/215210wesoda25 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 11:44 pm I think it’s a waste of time to dig as deep into escalation as it looks like they are in that appeal. More important is the big picture, in which sinfuls behavior was kind of gross and runs afoul of… rule 1? Maybe 12? I can’t concretely point at any one thing he did and say, “Yeah this is wrong,” but I CAN fault his overall playstyle. Were it based on that I’d say yeah, fair note (or even ban). Given the creepy sexual comments made, though, I’d say just scrap it. If there’s a pattern of problematic behavior, this won’t be your only “chance” (gross phrasing, sorry) at establishing it. If not then there is nothing to be concerned about. I think it’d just be better to wait for a scenario that doesn’t involve such a sensitive topic (since you can never truly establish how much such a thing bothers someone, for all you know they aren’t fully aware of that themselves).
I’d say the argument that you should ahelp stuff like that as opposed to taking it into your hands is a valid one, but then why not just make the note stating as much? Were I an admin, that’s the only possible version of this note that I would be comfortable factoring into later administrative action.
That’s just me though. It all seems needlessly complex and I dislike that. RIP everyone involved
Code: Select all
07:06:02 SAY Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) "axle is well known as a twinky femboy with no sense of humor" (145, 121, 4) Medbay Central
Rule 8 fluctuates between like, insta perma ban grr and pretty lenient stuff. It's hard to get right.AsbestosSniffer wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 5:46 am A player on Manuel ate an instant permaban for something similar.
Only in that case it was a comment targeting a cat girl, just sayin'.
(The Felinid deep state strikes again...)
By the way, just want to call out TBM here for bringing up the many, MANY times debunked narrative that notes are merely administrative record-keeping. Notes are a punishment, including this note.TheBibleMelts wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 11:07 pmwe're going to look purely at the note, what it describes, and if said note is inaccurate. notes are meant to establish behavior patterns, leave context for admins in future situations, and tell those admins if you stick your hand in the candy bowl too many times.
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