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viewtopic.php?f=7&p=705624#p70562420 minutes. Can we get any lower?
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viewtopic.php?f=7&p=705624#p705624Armhulen wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 11:08 pmThe Spessmen Times wrote:Prohibition agent Sam Salamander bragged that he could find a metacord in any server in under 30 minutes. In Bagil it took him 21 minutes. In Sybil 17 minutes, and Manuel just 11 minutes. But Terry set the record of 35 seconds. Sam asked an assistant on the arrivals shuttle where to get a discord invite, and the assistant linked him one.
RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2024 3:52 pmIt would somehow manage to pick Birdshot Station for headmin if we did that
By the way, just want to call out TBM here for bringing up the many, MANY times debunked narrative that notes are merely administrative record-keeping. Notes are a punishment, including this note.TheBibleMelts wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 11:07 pmwe're going to look purely at the note, what it describes, and if said note is inaccurate. notes are meant to establish behavior patterns, leave context for admins in future situations, and tell those admins if you stick your hand in the candy bowl too many times.
why do people say this like its a gotcha when you and tbm are saying exactly the same thingImitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 9:55 amBy the way, just want to call out TBM here for bringing up the many, MANY times debunked narrative that notes are merely administrative record-keeping. Notes are a punishment, including this note.TheBibleMelts wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 11:07 pmwe're going to look purely at the note, what it describes, and if said note is inaccurate. notes are meant to establish behavior patterns, leave context for admins in future situations, and tell those admins if you stick your hand in the candy bowl too many times.
We aren't. TBM is implying they're for records-keeping. "Notes are meant to establish patterns and leave context for admins in future situations.". He is clearly and obviously on the "They're records-keeping" side, but they're not for records-keeping, notes are the 2nd step in the punishment ladder, which goes Verbal > Note > Partial/temp ban > Permaban > Blacklist. Notes are frequently brought up in bans as a reason for punishment severity, so they're a punishment, as they make you more likely to receive bans or other harsher punishments in the future. This isn't a bad thing, but to imply that they're not a punishment like TBM is doing here is flat out wrong.Jacquerel wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 10:19 amwhy do people say this like its a gotcha when you and tbm are saying exactly the same thingImitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 9:55 amBy the way, just want to call out TBM here for bringing up the many, MANY times debunked narrative that notes are merely administrative record-keeping. Notes are a punishment, including this note.TheBibleMelts wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 11:07 pmwe're going to look purely at the note, what it describes, and if said note is inaccurate. notes are meant to establish behavior patterns, leave context for admins in future situations, and tell those admins if you stick your hand in the candy bowl too many times.
"Notes are meant to establish patterns and leave context for admins in future situations." Context for admins to apply better judgement which might be a ban, the pattern is usually also what gets banned on. You are just jumping at shadows my guy, you are saying the same thing as tbm.Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 10:35 amWe aren't. TBM is implying they're for records-keeping. "Notes are meant to establish patterns and leave context for admins in future situations.". He is clearly and obviously on the "They're records-keeping" side, but they're not for records-keeping, notes are the 2nd step in the punishment ladder, which goes Verbal > Note > Partial/temp ban > Permaban > Blacklist. Notes are frequently brought up in bans as a reason for punishment severity, so they're a punishment, as they make you more likely to receive bans or other harsher punishments in the future. This isn't a bad thing, but to imply that they're not a punishment like TBM is doing here is flat out wrong.Jacquerel wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 10:19 amwhy do people say this like its a gotcha when you and tbm are saying exactly the same thingImitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 9:55 amBy the way, just want to call out TBM here for bringing up the many, MANY times debunked narrative that notes are merely administrative record-keeping. Notes are a punishment, including this note.TheBibleMelts wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 11:07 pmwe're going to look purely at the note, what it describes, and if said note is inaccurate. notes are meant to establish behavior patterns, leave context for admins in future situations, and tell those admins if you stick your hand in the candy bowl too many times.
Those two things are not mutualy exclusive.Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 9:55 amBy the way, just want to call out TBM here for bringing up the many, MANY times debunked narrative that notes are merely administrative record-keeping. Notes are a punishment, including this note.TheBibleMelts wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 11:07 pmwe're going to look purely at the note, what it describes, and if said note is inaccurate. notes are meant to establish behavior patterns, leave context for admins in future situations, and tell those admins if you stick your hand in the candy bowl too many times.
Armhulen wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 11:08 pmThe Spessmen Times wrote:Prohibition agent Sam Salamander bragged that he could find a metacord in any server in under 30 minutes. In Bagil it took him 21 minutes. In Sybil 17 minutes, and Manuel just 11 minutes. But Terry set the record of 35 seconds. Sam asked an assistant on the arrivals shuttle where to get a discord invite, and the assistant linked him one.
RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2024 3:52 pmIt would somehow manage to pick Birdshot Station for headmin if we did that
What you are saying is punishment is record keeping. Having records of the past actions of a player and taking them into account can result in their future actions being treated more harshly. As you believe this is in of itself a form of punishment, you believe that record keeping is punishment.Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 10:35 amWe aren't. TBM is implying they're for records-keeping. "Notes are meant to establish patterns and leave context for admins in future situations.". He is clearly and obviously on the "They're records-keeping" side, but they're not for records-keeping, notes are the 2nd step in the punishment ladder, which goes Verbal > Note > Partial/temp ban > Permaban > Blacklist. Notes are frequently brought up in bans as a reason for punishment severity, so they're a punishment, as they make you more likely to receive bans or other harsher punishments in the future. This isn't a bad thing, but to imply that they're not a punishment like TBM is doing here is flat out wrong.Jacquerel wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 10:19 amwhy do people say this like its a gotcha when you and tbm are saying exactly the same thingImitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 9:55 amBy the way, just want to call out TBM here for bringing up the many, MANY times debunked narrative that notes are merely administrative record-keeping. Notes are a punishment, including this note.TheBibleMelts wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 11:07 pmwe're going to look purely at the note, what it describes, and if said note is inaccurate. notes are meant to establish behavior patterns, leave context for admins in future situations, and tell those admins if you stick your hand in the candy bowl too many times.
As notes are solely used as "strikes" this is correct, notes are punishments.Jacquerel wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:06 pm
What you are saying is punishment is record keeping. Having records of the past actions of a player and taking them into account can result in their future actions being treated more harshly. As you believe this is in of itself a form of punishment, you believe that record keeping is punishment.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
I mean, 99.9% of notes are negative and only exist to increase the severity of future punishments, so, yes.Jacquerel wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:06 pmWhat you are saying is punishment is record keeping. Having records of the past actions of a player and taking them into account can result in their future actions being treated more harshly. As you believe this is in of itself a form of punishment, you believe that record keeping is punishment.Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 10:35 amWe aren't. TBM is implying they're for records-keeping. "Notes are meant to establish patterns and leave context for admins in future situations.". He is clearly and obviously on the "They're records-keeping" side, but they're not for records-keeping, notes are the 2nd step in the punishment ladder, which goes Verbal > Note > Partial/temp ban > Permaban > Blacklist. Notes are frequently brought up in bans as a reason for punishment severity, so they're a punishment, as they make you more likely to receive bans or other harsher punishments in the future. This isn't a bad thing, but to imply that they're not a punishment like TBM is doing here is flat out wrong.Jacquerel wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 10:19 amwhy do people say this like its a gotcha when you and tbm are saying exactly the same thingImitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 9:55 amBy the way, just want to call out TBM here for bringing up the many, MANY times debunked narrative that notes are merely administrative record-keeping. Notes are a punishment, including this note.TheBibleMelts wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 11:07 pmwe're going to look purely at the note, what it describes, and if said note is inaccurate. notes are meant to establish behavior patterns, leave context for admins in future situations, and tell those admins if you stick your hand in the candy bowl too many times.
This is true regardless of whether it's a punishment or not. If it's not true, then notes are completely pointless.Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 9:55 amBy the way, just want to call out TBM here for bringing up the many, MANY times debunked narrative that notes are merely administrative record-keeping. Notes are a punishment, including this note.TheBibleMelts wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 11:07 pmwe're going to look purely at the note, what it describes, and if said note is inaccurate. notes are meant to establish behavior patterns, leave context for admins in future situations, and tell those admins if you stick your hand in the candy bowl too many times.
Notes are a punishment, but there is a lower level of punishment: just a slap on the wrist don't do it again. Players don't like being bwoinked, being told off is not pleasant and if people react in good faith I'm often happy with "okay we had this chat and now they know not to do it again"
if i gave a player a positive note then i would be subject to administrative action myself, on account of the fact that I am not an adminImitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 3:11 pmWhen was the last time you gave a player a positive note, Jacquerel?
Do it anyways nerd.Jacquerel wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 4:20 pmif i gave a player a positive note then i would be subject to administrative action myself, on account of the fact that I am not an adminImitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 3:11 pmWhen was the last time you gave a player a positive note, Jacquerel?
yeah it's a pretty zero-sum game.cSeal wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 5:05 pm Where did this argument even start, what's its fucking point. It seems like such a useless debate over semantics, I don't see any useful action being taken or policy or practice being changed if everyone decides definitively whether they are or aren't a punishment.
imitates-the-lizards was just shitstirringcSeal wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 5:05 pm Where did this argument even start, what's its fucking point. It seems like such a useless debate over semantics, I don't see any useful action being taken or policy or practice being changed if everyone decides definitively whether they are or aren't a punishment.
Holding the headmeme accountable for incorrectly implying notes are only administrative records-keeping isn't shitstirringJacquerel wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 5:55 pmimitates-the-lizards was just shitstirringcSeal wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 5:05 pm Where did this argument even start, what's its fucking point. It seems like such a useless debate over semantics, I don't see any useful action being taken or policy or practice being changed if everyone decides definitively whether they are or aren't a punishment.
You're going off of imagined implication and the thing you're saying is being implied is an entirely useless bit of semanticsImitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 6:21 pm
Holding the headmeme accountable for incorrectly implying notes are only administrative records-keeping isn't shitstirring
I think it fairly obvious that whether or not notes are a punishment is relevant to whether or not a note is justifiable, otherwise there wouldn't be any need to justify notes... Why would you need to justify them if they aren't a punishment?cSeal wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 6:29 pmYou're going off of imagined implication and the thing you're saying is being implied is an entirely useless bit of semanticsImitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 6:21 pm
Holding the headmeme accountable for incorrectly implying notes are only administrative records-keeping isn't shitstirring
Was the note justified? Are there details missing? Was there misconduct in its application? Questions like that are important, and if a note is a punishment is entirely irrelevant to any of their answers.
it actually isn't and this post is complete nonsenseImitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 6:58 pmI think it fairly obvious that whether or not notes are a punishment is relevant to whether or not a note is justifiable, otherwise there wouldn't be any need to justify notes... Why would you need to justify them if they aren't a punishment?cSeal wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 6:29 pmYou're going off of imagined implication and the thing you're saying is being implied is an entirely useless bit of semanticsImitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 6:21 pm
Holding the headmeme accountable for incorrectly implying notes are only administrative records-keeping isn't shitstirring
Was the note justified? Are there details missing? Was there misconduct in its application? Questions like that are important, and if a note is a punishment is entirely irrelevant to any of their answers.
The rule is badly written, which means it's mostly up to admin interpretation, but more importantly, if you try to defend against a rule 8 accusation for someone in the bus you're likely to get someone attempting to conclude you're supporting creepy people, which means the only people who really comment on it are headadmins.kieth4 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 8:31 amRule 8 fluctuates between like, insta perma ban grr and pretty lenient stuff. It's hard to get right.AsbestosSniffer wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 5:46 am A player on Manuel ate an instant permaban for something similar.
Only in that case it was a comment targeting a cat girl, just sayin'.
(The Felinid deep state strikes again...)
Lower your tone with me if your tracked play time doesn't look like this:Timonk wrote:You have clearly never seen his dickWesoda25 wrote:Genuinely think they should be blacklisted.
Flatulent wrote:of course you can change religion doing it while islamic however makes you lose your head from happiness
im happyKendrickorium wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 9:36 pm >starsector posting is annoying
>starsector posting is the same as counting
>starsector posting is just thread derailment
>i hate having to wade through starsector posting so i can get to the meat of why notes are bad for the 50th time
i hope youre all happy
It's supremely intelligent and creative takes like this that gut me everytime I have to place Jacquerel in second place as my favourite maintainer (he's at the moment numero uno ☝ tho)
Armhulen wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 11:08 pmThe Spessmen Times wrote:Prohibition agent Sam Salamander bragged that he could find a metacord in any server in under 30 minutes. In Bagil it took him 21 minutes. In Sybil 17 minutes, and Manuel just 11 minutes. But Terry set the record of 35 seconds. Sam asked an assistant on the arrivals shuttle where to get a discord invite, and the assistant linked him one.
RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2024 3:52 pmIt would somehow manage to pick Birdshot Station for headmin if we did that
this has been in practice for like 12 years, fellow spaceman.
With these types of rules it'll always be up to admins and that's because of the nature of rule 8 situations. There's a lot of nuance.oranges wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 8:47 pmThe rule is badly written, which means it's mostly up to admin interpretation, but more importantly, if you try to defend against a rule 8 accusation for someone in the bus you're likely to get someone attempting to conclude you're supporting creepy people, which means the only people who really comment on it are headadmins.kieth4 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 8:31 amRule 8 fluctuates between like, insta perma ban grr and pretty lenient stuff. It's hard to get right.AsbestosSniffer wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 5:46 am A player on Manuel ate an instant permaban for something similar.
Only in that case it was a comment targeting a cat girl, just sayin'.
(The Felinid deep state strikes again...)
Your comments are a punishment on the forums as they impact people's thoughts and engagement with the forums.iwishforducks wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 10:16 pm "notes arent punishment" people when the teacher forgets to pick up homework: uhmm teacher??? you forgot to take up the homework!!
Chad "notes are punishment" people when the teacher asks the class how the paper is coming along: im so stressed im only 30% done with the paper i dont know if i will get it done in time teacher can we get an extension please???
I had assumed that notes becoming visible included anything written down about you. Why bother to appeal a note then?TheBibleMelts wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 10:24 pmthis has been in practice for like 12 years, fellow spaceman.
that's the fun part, it's usually not worth the bother. for anybody involved.feaster wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 11:00 pmI had assumed that notes becoming visible included anything written down about you. Why bother to appeal a note then?TheBibleMelts wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 10:24 pmthis has been in practice for like 12 years, fellow spaceman.
If you believe a note is unjust, you appeal it so it doesn't impact future judgement of an admin which would then result in a harsher punishment, due to rule 7.feaster wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 11:00 pmI had assumed that notes becoming visible included anything written down about you. Why bother to appeal a note then?TheBibleMelts wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 10:24 pmthis has been in practice for like 12 years, fellow spaceman.
Armhulen wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 11:08 pmThe Spessmen Times wrote:Prohibition agent Sam Salamander bragged that he could find a metacord in any server in under 30 minutes. In Bagil it took him 21 minutes. In Sybil 17 minutes, and Manuel just 11 minutes. But Terry set the record of 35 seconds. Sam asked an assistant on the arrivals shuttle where to get a discord invite, and the assistant linked him one.
RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2024 3:52 pmIt would somehow manage to pick Birdshot Station for headmin if we did that
goof didnt make chloral? He may have touched it down the line when he switched the chems from trekkies but i wouldnt say he implemented chloral.
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