Shooting first and asking questions if we're still alive later.

[Sightld2]

Bottom post of the previous page:

viewtopic.php?t=35040&view=unread#unread

I was playing pacifist moth sec this round, I think the last thing Jeff heard from me was "Cy-yb-o-or-gs R-R-OU-U-GUE"

I think Mister Jaeden raises a good point bringing up this section of the RPR6
"...-The overall status of the station factors in to the severity of committed crimes and the proportionality of security response-..."

Wonder how this one will turn out.

[AsbestosSniffer]

You've been put in a cell for almost 10 minutes without any timer, then you hear lasers and the (arrested) detective starts talking about how the HoS is insane and is executing prisoners, don't tell me you also wouldn't try to break out.

I would break out, but I wouldn't whine if I would choose to break out other prisoners and got shot for it.

The mime wasn't breaking out any random prisoner, he was breaking out the detective. This whole situation clearly led to a lot of confusion in security as other officers refused to carry out Jeff's orders, both intentionally and unintentionally. I witnessed the whole situation firsthand.

[AsbestosSniffer]

Also double-posting because fuck you.

Jeff is not a malicious player by any means, and he can communicate very effectively with his colleagues, this combined with his general robustness makes him an excellent officer. Jeff's issue I think is primarily de-escalation, once a situation is sparked, he doesn't like to use his words to try and calm things down before the powderkeg explodes (see that round where he shot a bunch of people after wiping the AI). Part of that however can be blamed, as others in this thread have pointed out, how extreme dynamic can be for security, I for one am glad to see dynamic being tweaked to be less unmanageable, but I do hope that Jeff learns to at least attempt to communicate better in confusing situations like these.

[vect0r]

I don’t know about the note, but I like Jeff. A lot of the time when I have a dumb new broken combo, Jeff will take time out of his shift to test it out with me. I have him up with Alexa for testing dumb stuff, like when I became unkillable.

[oranges]

Do you think jeff will learn from what his compatriots are saying?

[kayozz]

Can I just say dynamic is utterly fucked at the moment. A couple of rounds ago we had at least two traitors semi-murderboning (several people got RR'd), we had 3 pirates firing cannons at and then hijacking the shuttle, we had a revenant working with the pirates to scoop up corpses, we had a dragon and several carps wrecking shit just before the shuttle arrived, a nasty virus messing up medbay and a Ninja causing other types of mayhem like they do.... Oh and toxins exploded. These all rolled/happened within minutes of each other.
Oh and hardly any security to deal with the mess, which caused several crew members to act as a vigilante mob. Then the shuttle got breached and I think 90% of the people died onboard it... Oh and someone released some acidic gas.

Dynamic is not right and still needs to be tweaked. We shouldn't really be punishing players for dealing with the mess that coders have made and expecting them to keep up to an expected standard that is ultimately weighted AGAINST sec.

Not making excuses for Jeff tbh, but HOS really is the most stressful position on the station. Not only are you micro-managing security of varying degrees of competency, but you're generally hated by the normal crew, expected to do everything to keep the station safe by the Captain, handling MULTIPLE threats and also ensuring the Warden is keeping prisoners in order, and if there's no Warden, the HOS has to keep prisoners in order. Also they're dealing with lesser tiders and other grey level bullshit, whilst also having to engage with all of this in a MRP way.

So add all that paranoia, responsibility and risk of dying together, then add the fact you can get bwoinked by an admin and job-banned for making the wrong decision because you're also expected to be a mind reader and omniscient like the admins.

This is why I don't play HOS tbh.

That said - locking a mime in a timeless cell and then executing them for putting up a mime wall is equally cruel.

EDIT: not shitting on coders or admins here btw, just a bit of perspective.

[dendydoom]

i feel like the majority of mrp admins are in agreement that since dynamic was fixed it's been too hardcore for manuel. i agree wholeheartedly that the standard we hold sec and command to is not feasible if the majority of rounds are this intense and chaotic. if it needs further tuning, then i hope that happens sooner rather than later.

when i've been adminning recently i will often remove the threat myself and manually roll antags when i feel it's appropriate, either through emergent rp that i spot happening in the moment or because nothing interesting is happening and people are starting to pine for a shuttle call because they're bored.

[Dax Dupont]

I feel maybe security should be a little less governed on MRP, security is a very intensive role to play and you have to balance not getting killed and the station's general well-being against the rules. You can end up in high stress situations with very little wiggle room and make split second decisions that just cross the boundary between legit and rule violations.

I might be biased as a MRP Captain/sec main but even I can only handle 2 rounds of sec before I need a break or play QM.

It's an imperfect game, played by imperfect people where the lack of information and an excess of paranoia are a core part of the game.

[chocolate_bickie]

That said - locking a mime in a timeless cell and then executing them for putting up a mime wall is equally cruel.

If the mime didn't like it they should have said something.

[kinnebian]

That said - locking a mime in a timeless cell and then executing them for putting up a mime wall is equally cruel.

If the mime didn't like it they should have said something.

https://youtube.com/shorts/jTt9T5zZCXE? ... kfAg69FX5m

[Archie700]

To sum up, there was no proof that the mime was a shitter besides :

• interfering with an arrest that might have been an accident - mime did not even try to fight
• trying to escape from the transfer centre that he was unlawfully kept in for at least 10 minutes without being told why or how long - no due process or attempt to get why exactly he was booked
• trying to free a "dangerous" prisoner, the detective whose crime was opposing Jeff when he went full "murder all antags"

This was an unfair hand the mime was dealt with and he can't even defend himself with words because breaking his vow will probably get him killed ANYWAY.

This is a bad case of people jumping in with how "someone didn't deserve it" and "it's the other person that's wrong , he shouldn't have griefed" before the full logs come in and it turns out they were completely off-track.

[Sightld2]

To sum up, there was no proof that the mime was a shitter besides :

• interfering with an arrest that might have been an accident - mime did not even try to fight
• trying to escape from the transfer centre that he was unlawfully kept in for at least 10 minutes without being told why or how long - no due process or attempt to get why exactly he was booked
• trying to free a "dangerous" prisoner, the detective whose crime was opposing Jeff when he went full "murder all antags"

This was an unfair hand the mime was dealt with and he can't even defend himself with words because breaking his vow will probably get him killed ANYWAY.

This is a bad case of people jumping in with how "someone didn't deserve it" and "it's the other person that's wrong , he shouldn't have griefed" before the full logs come in and it turns out they were completely off-track.

Yah I do tend to be sympathetic to mimes winding up in these kind of sticky situations. Though, the detective wasn't just in for "opposing Jeff," I saw him break a heretics blades against Jeff's wishes. (Which was funny but still definitely fair to demote.) And that's all I even saw, I think more happened between them.

[Archie700]

To sum up, there was no proof that the mime was a shitter besides :

• interfering with an arrest that might have been an accident - mime did not even try to fight
• trying to escape from the transfer centre that he was unlawfully kept in for at least 10 minutes without being told why or how long - no due process or attempt to get why exactly he was booked
• trying to free a "dangerous" prisoner, the detective whose crime was opposing Jeff when he went full "murder all antags"

This was an unfair hand the mime was dealt with and he can't even defend himself with words because breaking his vow will probably get him killed ANYWAY.

This is a bad case of people jumping in with how "someone didn't deserve it" and "it's the other person that's wrong , he shouldn't have griefed" before the full logs come in and it turns out they were completely off-track.

Yah I do tend to be sympathetic to mimes winding up in these kind of sticky situations. Though, the detective wasn't just in for "opposing Jeff," I saw him break a heretics blades against Jeff's wishes. (Which was funny but still definitely fair to demote.) And that's all I even saw, I think more happened between them.

I mean fair enough, but the mime doesn't actually know what happened. Jeff should have talked to the mime not to free the detective.

[NecromancerAnne]

Yah I do tend to be sympathetic to mimes winding up in these kind of sticky situations. Though, the detective wasn't just in for "opposing Jeff," I saw him break a heretics blades against Jeff's wishes. (Which was funny but still definitely fair to demote.) And that's all I even saw, I think more happened between them.

Iunno yo I feel like that's playing waaaay too optimally. Was the det even aware of why he didn't want the blades broken? I know he exploits that weakness a lot.

[CPTANT]

To sum up, there was no proof that the mime was a shitter besides :

• interfering with an arrest that might have been an accident - mime did not even try to fight
• trying to escape from the transfer centre that he was unlawfully kept in for at least 10 minutes without being told why or how long - no due process or attempt to get why exactly he was booked
• trying to free a "dangerous" prisoner, the detective whose crime was opposing Jeff when he went full "murder all antags"

This was an unfair hand the mime was dealt with and he can't even defend himself with words because breaking his vow will probably get him killed ANYWAY.

This is a bad case of people jumping in with how "someone didn't deserve it" and "it's the other person that's wrong , he shouldn't have griefed" before the full logs come in and it turns out they were completely off-track.

Yah I do tend to be sympathetic to mimes winding up in these kind of sticky situations. Though, the detective wasn't just in for "opposing Jeff," I saw him break a heretics blades against Jeff's wishes. (Which was funny but still definitely fair to demote.) And that's all I even saw, I think more happened between them.

I mean fair enough, but the mime doesn't actually know what happened. Jeff should have talked to the mime not to free the detective.

How about the mime doesn't try to free the detective in the first place? Nor try to prevent sec from arresting a changeling.

[Jacquerel]

Nor try to prevent sec from arresting a changeling.

I mean the general evaluation of the situation now seems to be "they didn't do that, they attempted to aid and then rammed a sec officer accidentally".

[NecromancerAnne]

They ollie'd themselves into a jail cell.

[Cheshify]

Fully agree about the point that dynamic needs more tweaking, but I think there might be an element of "every antag scales into a super Saiyan that ends the round" that also causes issues.

[iwishforducks]

Fully agree about the point that dynamic needs more tweaking, but I think there might be an element of "every antag scales into a super Saiyan that ends the round" that also causes issues.

^^^^^^^

the most ironic thing is that lings are the least threatening antag. heretics are easily the most dangerous (and in my opinion out worst antagonist design wise) and if someone is good at heretic they will always ascend. traitors are somewhat similar but they have artificial time gates that stop them from beelining their final objective.

[dendydoom]

sidebar but it feels like heretics ahelp way more about being validhunted or whatever cus they get cucked out of the "real" part of their antaggery - the build up is a slow burn and they don't really have much interpretation to their role that they can turn into interesting gimmicks. it's just different ways to trick people into getting owned so you can sacrifice them and eventually dunk on the entire station when you go super saiyan.

and while we're complaining about everything about the game i also feel like progtots have stopped a lot of the good ol traitor gimmick gameplay that we used to see be the norm, at least on manuel. i hope this makes a return with custom objectives, at least.

there is plenty that i love about the game but since this is the complaining hour i will keep it short and end it there to the relief of many.

[warbluke]

this is the complaining hour

I love the complaining hour!
As someone who plays sec on Bagil, I have the experience of getting swamped by antags just about every round. It's not very fun, especially since most of command is normally antagonists too thanks to midrounds and acting captainship.
Now, I don't normally get out the lethals when this happens because I love to suffer, but I can easily see how a normal person would just start blasting after a certain point.
To bring this back to the peanut, I think that the guy was pretty much justified (putting no timer on the cell is bad but if shit was really going down as hard as he claims it's alright) up until after the mimeblasting. From what I can tell he didn't try to get the mime to medical, or call a paramedic or anything. And that's no good. Imagine if that mime had the die a glorious death objective! Security should always revive every prisoner and make sure they escape alive in the shuttle brig. That way they can be sure no one greentexts.

Also he should have yelled "HALT OR I SHOOT!" because it's badass.

[Cheshify]

I still dislike head of staff antags

[Sightld2]

I still dislike head of staff antags

fantastic, lets get rid of em. Ice em. Take em out back.

[Featherfield]

This is exactly why people dont want to play sec as even on red alert if you do a move you get BWOINK
he did the right thing as an officer

[Constellado]

I still dislike head of staff antags

I like head of staff antags but not acting cap antag.

I feel too powerful when acting cap antag and it sucks. I want to struggle as an antag not just waltz around stealing whatever I want. Same with having to deal with an acting cap antag when there is no HoS to help lynch them. When things are too easy I cannot think of fun antag gimmicks.

Atleast when I am antag as CE I can build stupid tesla coil contraptions around the station and I can still get put into jail for it.

[RedBaronFlyer]

Do you think jeff will learn from what his compatriots are saying?

What's the point when an admin will just look at his notes whenever he gets ahelped as security and decide that he must be a shitter?

[iwishforducks]

I still dislike head of staff antags

im still sold on my idea of just making it so heads of staff can still be antags but at a lower percentage.

roll antagonist -> roll if you're able to become a head of staff (always passes if you're a non-antagonist) -> roll your jobs (with heads of staff if passed previous roll)

something like a 25% chance of having heads of staff included in your job roll as an antagonist would at the very least keep them from being meta-protected, but still reliable to.. y'know, do their job.

[carshalash]

I still dislike head of staff antags

Do what spook couldn't... Pull the plug on head of staff antags.

[Timberpoes]

You don't know how utterly cancer having a team of a metaprotected cannot-be-antag roles outside of sec is in our little social deduction game until you've played it.

I had antag disabled when I played. Everyone knew it. And everyone treated me like it, especially when I was running RD.

Whenever I did anything antagonistic, I was never killed. I was always non-lethally detained and checked out for brainwashing or conversion. That was then promptly fixed so I could go back to being trusted. Because I was never an antag.

In any fight, sec would instantly side with me. Because I was never an antag.

I got anything I asked for without question. Because I was never an antag.

I was practically invulnerable to antags as a result. I had max-level metaprotections ICly. I was difficult to ambush because people knew I wasn't an antag so I always had someone buzzing around me for safety in numbers. It was difficult to win fights as everyone would side with me instantly. I was never refused service, never refused an item I asked for, because I wasn't an antag so it would only benefit people to help me out.

I could always get access to any place I wanted, because I wasn't an antag.

Genuinely, metaprotections you get from it being practically impossible that you're an antag? They are so incredibly mind-blowingly toxic to a healthy SS13 shift as a whole outside of security, whose job revolves around being the only people you can truly trust.

[Archie700]

I will never agree with a proposal that removes antag from heads of staff because it will just give metaprotections to heads and that is terrible because now people will OOCly accept anything a head does because they cannot be antag.

[RedBaronFlyer]

I’m in the middle ground where it’s super annoying when half the head of staffs are antags, but it would also be bad if acting heads of staff weren’t antags at all. Sometimes I do feel like certain players only play heads of staff to get an easier start without any interest of actually leading or anything (I see this a lot with quartermasters) On Manuel the stereotype is that RD is always an antagonist.

I’m neutral on heads of staff having a reduced chance of being an antagonist but I feel like it might also affect good players from picking being a head of staff if they want to be an antagonist sometimes.

Don’t know it it’s just me but antag heads of staff are super fucking obvious. Oh gee, wowsers, who could have guessed that the head of staff that dips out of their department for 15 minutes at a time, constantly, and is always hurt, and has bloody shoes 24/7 might be an antag. HOP is basically the only lead of staff that can get away with it because HOP’s usually have a lot of downtime outside of the first 15 minutes of the round.

Most antagonist tend to be as subtle as a freight train falling off a bridge into a seven million ton tank of nitroglycerin. Looking at you, HOP who randomly walks into cargo bay and suddenly runs away when a heretic rift opens up right where you were standing.

Guess subtly doesn’t matter when the three security officers have to keep 7-15 antagonist (6+ of them being station ending threats) in line on top of the self-antagging crew.

[kayozz]

Get rid of heretics when?

[RedBaronFlyer]

Get rid of heretics when?

I just want some less "when you get to 'x' point you kill the station!" antags really. IDK why we got rid of oldtot with it's "kill a guy, steal a thing, die in a blaze of glory/escape unarrested" kind of antag. Progtot is somewhat similar but I don't get why we couldn't have had progtot, blood brothers, AND oldtot. You want gimmick traitors to come back? Re-add the antag job where you are able to do gimmicks instead of skyrim/fallout 4 style procedurally generated slop. I have seen a progtot do a gimmick a whole two times* because most progtots just do the minimal risk maximum reward objectives. I'm sorry but destroying donuts just isn't as interesting as a guy dying in a GTA 5 star wanted level shootout with security to fulfill his "die in a blaze of glory" objective.

*I do not count "just pretending that blatant antag thing is toooooooootally not an antag thing" a gimmick unless they REALLY put some work into it

Speaking of that, I am still baffled why we completely got rid of thief when all thieves needed a bigger pool of items to potentially steal, and an uplink that gave them non-lethal and less-than-lethal options. One again people chose the easy option of just amputating something that needed some tweaks to work well. Like cutting your arm off with a chainsaw because you have a weird-looking birthmark on it.

I like revenant specifically because it's a low-impact antag. You're a Luigi Mansion ghost whose job is to be annoying and feed off dead/dying people when there's a crisis. IIRC, someone tried making a PR to remove revenant partially BECAUSE revenant can't kill the station.

I also don't get why Blood Brothers are manuel only and that double agents are disabled. I would love the station to be the battleground between a 40 TC duel between two traitors, that shit sounds hilarious

[Jacquerel]

there's literally nothing except FOMO which stops progression traitors from doing gimmicks, the only thing we would change to "re-add" old traitor would be to remove the ability to select secondary missions (and I almost did this for post-start traitors until watermelon changed his mind)
it's just that the psychology of a loot treadmill proves irresistible to most

[RedBaronFlyer]

there's literally nothing except FOMO which stops progression traitors from doing gimmicks, the only thing we would change to "re-add" old traitor would be to remove the ability to select secondary missions (and I almost did this for post-start traitors until watermelon changed his mind)
it's just that the psychology of a loot treadmill proves irresistible to most

The issue is quite a few things are also locked behind reputation which means you're still heavily encouraged to do objectives unless you want to sit twiddling your thumbs for 40 minutes. I get that part of this is so that traitors don't just buy 20 TC worth of bombs and bomb the medbay shiftstart or buy an esword and start speeeeeening down the halls

[Jacquerel]

The issue is quite a few things are also locked behind reputation which means you're still heavily encouraged to do objectives unless you want to sit twiddling your thumbs for 40 minutes. I get that part of this is so that traitors don't just buy 20 TC worth of bombs and bomb the medbay shiftstart.

We wouldn't remove reputation, it's a gear timelock. The alternative is waiting.
Waiting is boring, which is why secondary objectives were added in the first place.
People see a shiny slot machine lever so they pull it.
People now only pull lever instead of being fun.

F

Literally nothing takes 40 minutes to unlock except for cosmetic showoff gear though.

[RedBaronFlyer]

The issue is quite a few things are also locked behind reputation which means you're still heavily encouraged to do objectives unless you want to sit twiddling your thumbs for 40 minutes. I get that part of this is so that traitors don't just buy 20 TC worth of bombs and bomb the medbay shiftstart.

We wouldn't remove reputation, it's a gear timelock. The alternative is waiting.
Waiting is boring, which is why secondary objectives were added in the first place.
People see a shiny slot machine lever so they pull it.
People now only pull lever instead of being fun.

F

Literally nothing takes 40 minutes to unlock except for cosmetic showoff gear though.

Either way, you run into the issue of "wait 40 minutes to unlock stuff" or "spend 10-20 minutes doing antag stuff and probably have security on your ass while you're trying to do your gimmick because you are still a potential station ending threat" obviously I'm being a bit dramatic with the wait time for rep thing unless you are trying to get super spicy antag gear for your gimmick.

Some stuff needs code to solve issues and other stuff just requires an admin slapping Aurthur "Medbay Bomber" Harris and telling him to get a new gimmick

[Jacquerel]

No matter how often you say 40 minutes it won't take 40 minutes to unlock anything you want for your gimmick.

[RedBaronFlyer]

No matter how often you say 40 minutes it won't take 40 minutes to unlock anything you want for your gimmick.

was being dramatic by saying it takes that long but it still is a meh thing.

[Jacquerel]

The difference is that you are making a comparison between "spend 40 minutes or spend 20 minutes" but the second figure is generally the first figure.
It's mildly annoying if what you really want is a syndicate bomb and you're present at round start but there's surely some setup you can do first before you're ready to become the mad bomber.

If you aren't a traitor at roundstart you won't have to worry because most of that time will already have elapsed before you become one.

[conrad]

No matter how often you say 40 minutes it won't take 40 minutes to unlock anything you want for your gimmick.

was being dramatic by saying it takes that long but it still is a meh thing.

Bro it takes 10 minutes for you to have everything you need to do whatever you want. 5 if you're doing progtot stuff.

If 10 minutes feels like 40 minutes for you, the problem isn't progtot.

That's without including stuff that you can get roundstart. Like sleepy pen + poison kit, chameleon kit and hand tele.

[kieth4]

Have you guys done gimmicks, as well as the tool cost you need the initial set up cost. (In terms of time.) Isn't the smallest and progtot has made it longer

Let's say it takes 15 minutes (being generous here) to unlock all the tot shit you may need in terms of the traitor stuff. You may need some of this traitor shit to set up stuff for your gimmick. So then now you have another like 15 (again generous) getting loot for the shit you need that you couldn't get without traitor shit.

So we're at 30, then if you're not murderboning you need to gather people which is like another 10.

It does get to like 40m quite easily especially when there are delays or you can't find an item or some shit. Before you cut out the initial step and could be ready at like 25

I used to do so many epic goofy gimmicks but progtot has stabbed them. If you ask most gimmickers who are better than me they'll agree too. 40 minute station is much harder to shit on than 25m station because you're not the only one gearing up, everyone else is too.

[Jacquerel]

Have you guys done gimmicks, as well as the tool cost you need the initial set up cost. (In terms of time.) Isn't the smallest and progtot has made it longer

Let's say it takes 15 minutes (being generous here) to unlock all the tot shit you may need in terms of the traitor stuff. You may need some of this traitor shit to set up stuff for your gimmick. So then now you have another like 15 (again generous) getting loot for the shit you need that you couldn't get without traitor shit.

In what way are you being generous? 15 minutes unlocks most of the uplink if you are literally doing nothing.
Which things do you need which you need 15 minutes to unlock in order to start acquiring your other gear? All of the breaking and entering stuff is available immediately.

You need to stop talking in made up hypotheticals and use actual examples, because the hypotheticals don't match with the game.

[kieth4]

Have you guys done gimmicks, as well as the tool cost you need the initial set up cost. (In terms of time.) Isn't the smallest and progtot has made it longer

Let's say it takes 15 minutes (being generous here) to unlock all the tot shit you may need in terms of the traitor stuff. You may need some of this traitor shit to set up stuff for your gimmick. So then now you have another like 15 (again generous) getting loot for the shit you need that you couldn't get without traitor shit.

In what way are you being generous? 15 minutes unlocks most of the uplink if you are literally doing nothing.
Which things do you need which you need 15 minutes to unlock in order to start acquiring your other gear? All of the breaking and entering stuff is available immediately.

You need to stop talking in made up hypotheticals and use actual examples, because the hypotheticals don't match with the game.

I think it's very easy to go in theory!! But in the game it's shrimply not how anything works. Did a quick scrubby search and suprise suprise you don't play the game so idk how you're in a position to talk about gimmicks when you quite literally do not do them.

It's not about breaking and entering you might need a weapon to enable you to kill someone or an item to make a play so you can start doing your shit that unlocks on the later end of the spectrum.

And yes, you're doing literally nothing because it's so easy to catch traitors you wait (until at least there's some more chaos happening)

You cannot use most b&e tools because you will get caught

Tired of mfs who don't play or engage in gimmick content telling people who do play "it's like this" one thing that really does piss me off in the worst possible way. ESPECIALLY WHEN THERE IS SO MUCH THAT CAN GO WRONG DURING THE SET UP/PREP THAT CAN FUCK YOU OR ADD SO MUCH TIME TO THE PREPARATION ESP IF YOU'RE USING BREAKING AND ENTRY TOOLS...

[Jacquerel]

I think it's very easy to go in theory!! But in the game it's shrimply not how anything works. Did a quick scrubby search and suprise suprise you don't play the game so idk how you're in a position to talk about gimmicks when you quite literally do not do them.

It's not about breaking and entering you might need a weapon to enable you to kill someone or an item to make a play so you can start doing your shit that unlocks on the later end of the spectrum.

And yes, you're doing literally nothing because it's so easy to catch traitors you wait (until at least there's some more chaos happening)

You cannot use most b&e tools because you will get caught

Tired of mfs who don't play or engage in gimmick content telling people who do play "it's like this" one thing that really does piss me off in the worst possible way

I do play, just mostly downstream where we haven't modified progression traitor aside from giving people a button to turn the secondary objectives off (purely to remove the temptation, it doesn't adjust reputation gain). The people who do this fare completely fine in terms of doing gimmicks.
Where's the examples Kieth. You've still not listed a single item. I asked because we can literally change anything in the game, but you would apparently rather just look at Scrubby and whine than do this.

If you don't actually describe any real events we can't do anything to fix it.

[conrad]

Kieth the guy who's a maintainer, the one who can try and change the game to be more like what you want, asks for an example, and your response is "hours???" and then not giving an example?

What are you even arguing in favour of?

[kieth4]

I think it's very easy to go in theory!! But in the game it's shrimply not how anything works. Did a quick scrubby search and suprise suprise you don't play the game so idk how you're in a position to talk about gimmicks when you quite literally do not do them.

It's not about breaking and entering you might need a weapon to enable you to kill someone or an item to make a play so you can start doing your shit that unlocks on the later end of the spectrum.

And yes, you're doing literally nothing because it's so easy to catch traitors you wait (until at least there's some more chaos happening)

You cannot use most b&e tools because you will get caught

Tired of mfs who don't play or engage in gimmick content telling people who do play "it's like this" one thing that really does piss me off in the worst possible way

I do play, just mostly downstream where we haven't modified progression traitor aside from giving people a button to turn the secondary objectives off (purely to remove the temptation, it doesn't adjust reputation gain). The people who do this fare completely fine in terms of doing gimmicks.
Where's the examples Kieth. You've still not listed a single item. I asked because we can literally change anything in the game, but you would apparently rather just look at Scrubby and whine than do this.

If you don't actually describe any real events we can't do anything to fix it.

Progtot is the issue and this will not be removed. This is shrimply it.

I suppose, for a start I am arguing from the perspective of LRP terry and how it has impacted gimmicks/things.

I do not think that someone who plays primarily on a downstream understands the issues faced by another server unless they are actively playing on it- and when you're looking at doing gimmicks you do need to play on the servers IMO because this game is dynamic and there is no straight line to your goal. Understanding how much this line waves and wanes is something you need to play the game for. Because It takes a while to set things up

There is no "real event" to describe, when you lock anything behind a time limit you limit the ability to be creative and do gimmicks. I for example, before progtot, did a gimmick with a 357 and a hypnoflash where I did not kill anybody. However, I needed the 357 and the hypnoflash for the gimmick straight away from the start of the round so I could prepare for it. Any item that is locked causes issues because gimmicks can require a variety of items lethal and non-lethal and they take time to set up.

[kieth4]

Kieth the guy who's a maintainer, the one who can try and change the game to be more like what you want, asks for an example, and your response is "hours???" and then not giving an example?

What are you even arguing in favour of?

I shrimply hate progtot

I think that broadly locking anything stifles creativity rlly- because this game is an arms race. Often times when you try to do shit that isn't straight away (crew are weaker) you get curb stomped and any idea of a gimmick is owned and over.

But I've played a lot of downstreams too and I don't think that having many hours on another server is indicative of the tg experience in regards to things like gimmicks or progtots really- I suppose I could have done a better job of portraying this opinion.

How can you tell me how long gimmicks take to set up if you do not play on the server?

Genuine question here.

[conrad]

The hypno-grenade and hypno-flash are both zero rep items. If what you need is a gun, the makarov is 100 rep, which you can get by punching people four times, which is not the end of the world on Terry. Or you can get a laser gun from armory using a hand tele.

If your gimmick is to bone, yeah, progtot's gonna stop that. But I wouldn't consider "get big gun kill people lmfao" a gimmick.

So far the thing with most substance was honestly saying you don't like the thing. But saying it "stifles creativity" is just not true; the most interactive items are either zero rep or low enough rep that the "punch someone twice" objective unlocks it.

[kieth4]

The hypno-grenade and hypno-flash are both zero rep items. If what you need is a gun, the makarov is 100 rep, which you can get by punching people four times, which is not the end of the world on Terry. Or you can get a laser gun from armory using a hand tele.

If your gimmick is to bone, yeah, progtot's gonna stop that. But I wouldn't consider "get big gun kill people lmfao" a gimmick.

So far the thing with most substance was honestly saying you don't like the thing. But saying it "stifles creativity" is just not true; the most interactive items are either zero rep or low enough rep that the "punch someone twice" objective unlocks it.

If you want to kill people the most ideal thing is probably like, a desword with noslips or the ebow (which is 0 rep now iirc?). A big gun can absolutely be leveraged in a lot of RP opportunities as a scary big gun really. The makrov doesn't really have the same fear factor. If we're talking about roleplay. But this is also something I don't really like- yeah you can rp but use the less cool looking small iron instead of the epic sexy big iron

[Jacquerel]

Thanks for actually answering this time.
Progression traitor isn't the problem, as I have said the time locks aren't related to progression existing. They would be there regardless. If your answer really is "making literally anything not available at all times is problematic" then yeah I guess you're right and there's nothing that can be done to satisfy you.
But I'll try anyway.

Hypnoflashes aren't locked at all and you can buy them the second a round starts, so no problems there and that might be a relief to you.
You could use your carefully hoarded immediately available reputation to purchase a radioactive microlaser, which at a high enough power setting will both stun someone and make them hypnotically vulnerable, and then just walk up to someone and mesmerise them.
If you need specifically a .357 revolver then yeah you're SoL, but by now you could likely buy a pair of makarovs for the two of you while you pick up whatever matching outfits you're going to wear. Otherwise if you just want a weapon having two bodies is already a good advantage for stealing guns or batons from someone else using your emag, c4, teleporter, toolbox...
You might get in trouble while trying to steal guns from someone else but like... isn't that the point? What are you gathering a hypnotised posse for if not to get into trouble? Isn't that your job?

I will submit, I don't know what you even wanted the revolver for because you didn't say. If you wanted to hold someone up with a gun in order to have them surrender for hypnosis you'd need to wait at least until you could get a Makarov and even then, people might not actually be that scared of a Makarov when it doesn't kill them in two shots.
Having restrictions is certainly going to be more restrictive than having no restrictions, but we have so many tools that you can buy immediately, which I see people regularly creatively use (even when observing TG) that I will admit it is often very hard for me not to discount people saying that they vaguely rather than specifically "can't do any gimmicks" as lack of creativity.


As it doesn't seem to be commonly known which things are or aren't locked behind time, here's a full list of every item which is locked and how long you would need to do nothing for in order to unlock it.
This is a from roundstart timer not a how long I have been present timer, so if you become a traitor after 15 minutes you already have access to everything which appears at 15 minutes.

As we've said, doing secondary objectives fast-forwards this so if you do any of those the early ones tend to cut somewhere between 5-10 minutes off these values.
Pet murder is 3-6 minutes. Assault is 4-8 minutes. Petty thefts are 4-8. Heirloom destruction is 8-12. Sleeper surgery is 8-15 (but you'll only get it at minute 0 if you are in a department with a surgery bed). These are the objectives available the minute the round starts and later ones which usually require you to kill someone (though frankly, heirlooms often require that) are much more.
Kidnapping for some reason gives an absolutely pitiful amount of reputation but it does tend to give you 5+ tc so I guess that's the tradeoff.

Spoiler:

5 minutes (might as well not exist idk why we limit anything for 5 minutes)
Cash briefcase (lol why?)
C4
Clown Car
His Grace

10 minutes
Makarov
Throwing Weapons
Origami kit
Bag of C4
Gorilla Serum
Pie Cannon

15 minutes
TComms blackout
Combat Baking Kit
Gorilla Cubes (why is this different to the serum?)
Clown Bomb

20 minutes
ESword
Power Fist
Gloves of the North Star
Power Sink
Bag of X4
PDA exploder (??? i guess its annoying to lose your PDA at round start but skill issue)
Advanced Mimery
Laser Arm
Chemical Gun
Power blackout

30 minutes
Random bundles
Dual Eswords
Holoparasites
Revolver
Hacked Law Upload
Sleeping Carp
Singularity Beacon (rip)
Pizza Bomb
Minibomb
Big Bomb
Big EMP Bomb
Reverse Revolver
PKA Pressure Mod
Concealed Mech Weapon Bay
Spiders
Blast Cannon

>30 minutes
Elite MODsuit
Bunch of costumes

Anything not on that list you can just buy whenever. I would list those but there's like forty items.

Now if you asked me I'd say that Pizza and PDA bombs, Pie Cannons, anything with creates Gorillas, and AI Law Uploads are certainly higher than they need to be (frankly not sure any of them need a time lock at all) but you can see the themes are reasonably clearly:
- Anything which just lets you kill people very quickly and does nothing else.
- Anything which causes a significant amount of damage to a large area very quickly.

[conrad]

The hypno-grenade and hypno-flash are both zero rep items. If what you need is a gun, the makarov is 100 rep, which you can get by punching people four times, which is not the end of the world on Terry. Or you can get a laser gun from armory using a hand tele.

If your gimmick is to bone, yeah, progtot's gonna stop that. But I wouldn't consider "get big gun kill people lmfao" a gimmick.

So far the thing with most substance was honestly saying you don't like the thing. But saying it "stifles creativity" is just not true; the most interactive items are either zero rep or low enough rep that the "punch someone twice" objective unlocks it.

If you want to kill people the most ideal thing is probably like, a desword with noslips or the ebow (which is 0 rep now iirc?). A big gun can absolutely be leveraged in a lot of RP opportunities as a scary big gun really. The makrov doesn't really have the same fear factor. If we're talking about roleplay. But this is also something I don't really like- yeah you can rp but use the less cool looking small iron instead of the epic sexy big iron

Yeah but now we shifted from "I can't do it" to "I can't do it how I like it" and you're not gonna change that by pointing at a maintainer and going "what do you even know you don't play tg".