Shooting first and asking questions if we're still alive later.

[Sightld2]

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viewtopic.php?t=35040&view=unread#unread

I was playing pacifist moth sec this round, I think the last thing Jeff heard from me was "Cy-yb-o-or-gs R-R-OU-U-GUE"

I think Mister Jaeden raises a good point bringing up this section of the RPR6
"...-The overall status of the station factors in to the severity of committed crimes and the proportionality of security response-..."

Wonder how this one will turn out.

[TheLoLSwat]

part of the job as security is making tough choices with limited resources (especially time and trustworthy personnel). Its a stressful job but knowing that youre just the indomitable human spirit against an unbeatable cruel universe helps a lot.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

There is no crew win condition and hasn't been since we removed "the round ends as soon as a wizard dies" (which we removed because it sucks). Even if every antagonist loses (and even in scenario here the game congratulates the crew for outsmarting a team of cultists or operatives), the game ends with the crew abandoning their post anyway, not in victory.
That doesn't make you "playthings" because everyone enters the game already knowing that this is a crisis simulator and that is the basic gameplay framing.
The crew don't and can't win, they just survive for a while. That has been the game everyone has played for over a decade, including you.


Any scenario where the game ends because the crew whips around and says "uhhh we're all bored and want to start over how about we all RP just quitting our jobs for no reason" is a failure of the game design (or admins not making something happen). Preferably it happens because of the act of someone who is playing the game.

The point is that there is a difference between "The Crew lives on a crisis station, and their endgoal is simply to Survive the threats that happen around them" is different than "The entire point of playing Crew is that you are going to lose". They're similar, certainly, the former does acknowledge the latter, but it frames it differently. The former gives the Crew agency, and treats them like a part of the story, the latter just says "Your job is to fall over and die so that John Traitor can get a new gun" and treats them like plot devices at best.

I also don't agree that the "Me bored, shuttle call?" is inherently a failure of game design. Certainly, it can be. But not always. It's good to have quieter rounds, too. Rounds where the crew faced opposition and threats, but managed to survive make those rounds where they get their shit pushed in extra hard have extra oomph. It gives them meaning and it makes them have impact. They're much more exciting and interesting when it's not an Every Round thing. Much like "Me bored, shuttle call?" shouldn't be every round.

And it's also MUCH better if those happen because of what the traitors are doing, and not because the game just says "ok its time". What's the more interesting scenario? "The station is in massive disrepair and large swathes of the crew are dead. The shuttle is called, and what few battered and broken survivors are left limp aboard and survive to see another day." vs "Things were relatively quiet. All of a sudden a Battlecruiser arrived. Everyone died."

Final Objectives aren't a healthy way to handle it. At worst, they inspire tots to be literally "People thought this was a greenshift" levels of stealthy so that they can safely get their Final Obj and win, and at best they...do something the tots could have done anyway (end the round).

Their very existence ruins Sec's ability to RP. In the past, I loved releasing antags because it was more fun for everyone. They got more time to do Antag Things, and Sec had more things they could actually do, and it allowed the story of the round to go and continue. Now, releasing antags only makes it more fun for the antag player.

Their very existence ALSO ruins gimmicks. People in this thread have tried to argue against that, "Umm, you can still DO your gimmicks with Prog Tot" but ignoring the fact that Rep Locks On Gear Stifle That ("Martial Artist Dueling Sect Chaplain" is a fun and reliable gimmick to break out from time to time, and Scarp is Rep Locked) by forcing you to Do Things That Mark You As An Antag or Wait Out Half The Round Doing Nothing, there's also the repercussions of the above point. Security's left scratching their heads, and wondering "Is this guy just doing a gimmick, or is he going to be a round-ender?" After all, maybe that Chaplain just SEEMS like he's doing the Martial Artist Dueling Sect Chaplain gimmick, but he's actually stealthing his objectives to get his battlecruiser.

And the only, ONLY thing you've said that could vaguely justify them is "It's good for Player Actions to be why the round ends, instead of people being bored" which...y'know. Already happened before every single antag in the game was made into a round-ender.

[RaveRadbury]

Yet another player who takes their job so seriously that they put the role before the rules.

You hate to see it.

How is THAT your take-away from this whole situation?

[dendydoom]

on manuel people roleplay the evac shuttle as being a shift transfer shuttle for the next crew to tag in all the time when it's 2 hours into a chill round, like clocking out of work. i've never seen an issue with this. i agree that the rounds should regularly give the crew a big dramatic ending crisis to run from and try to survive, but sometimes it's quite nice to juxtapose that with letting them leave on their own terms to give some variety and not have everything be at a full 10/10 intensity every single round.

[kayozz]

Yellow star... the round has just finished lol.

4 Heretics (ascended) 1 Space dragon and numerous carp, Ninja, pirates, abductors and a traitor...

60-70% of the crew dead. Sec was understaffed. Shuttle was on fire.

[GPeckman]

Yikes. Even with a fully staffed security that would be too much.

[vect0r]

Bible pleaaaseeeee Jeff is like one of the best/only Manuel sec players.

[kieth4]

Yellow star... the round has just finished lol.

4 Heretics (ascended) 1 Space dragon and numerous carp, Ninja, pirates, abductors and a traitor...

60-70% of the crew dead. Sec was understaffed. Shuttle was on fire.

This seems like an amount of threat you can handle with very little security. At least half of the heretics are bound to get caught doing set up. You can catch the rest when they start murdering not a big deal really. A space dragon is easy to melt with lasers. Pirates are weak and the 1 traitor can be caught by looking at cameras.

This is a good amount of threat. You don't necessarily need to buss it down rp style for every single threat because it won't warrant it. (Pirates, ninja, Dragon. Violent heretics)

Idk what the struggle is here could you elaborate please so I can have a better understanding of your issue

[dendydoom]

it's more about finding a balance. the issue is that manuel was getting swamped with very high intensity rounds almost all of the time. we still want high intensity, but it needs to be sprinkled in amongst the norm of saner rounds where people have breathing room to take that extra time to RP.

hectic rounds are fun, but on the rp server people get burnt out if they experience it constantly, because it takes time away too much from the other side of the coin: having the time to slow down and roleplay a situation to its completion before getting hit with the next thing.

just tonight we had a round with maybe 4 antags in it, and because of the attention we were able to give to those antags we could elevate their stories and make their gimmicks shine and everyone had a lot of fun. not saying we want to put an end to high octane doomsday rounds, because i think those are fun in their own way, but they shouldn't be as constant as they were.

[kieth4]

it's more about finding a balance. the issue is that manuel was getting swamped with very high intensity rounds almost all of the time. we still want high intensity, but it needs to be sprinkled in amongst the norm of saner rounds where people have breathing room to take that extra time to RP.

hectic rounds are fun, but on the rp server people get burnt out if they experience it constantly, because it takes time away too much from the other side of the coin: having the time to slow down and roleplay a situation to its completion before getting hit with the next thing.

just tonight we had a round with maybe 4 antags in it, and because of the attention we were able to give to those antags we could elevate their stories and make their gimmicks shine and everyone had a lot of fun. not saying we want to put an end to high octane doomsday rounds, because i think those are fun in their own way, but they shouldn't be as constant as they were.

That's an interesting perspective, thank you. I think coming from lrp I like high octane rounds because anything below red we are able to just completely sweep a lot of the time.

It creates a slog, when all of the antags just get owned super hard "you can just release them!!" I have been in trouble with admins 3-4 times for doing so and even successfully managed to appeal a note for it. It's obviously not like, a "norm" but it's something I cba to deal with in the long term because some do hold that view. Also the huge backlash from jobbies when the guy who you let go owns them and summons a dragon. Ain't worth the tickets/cope so I just own everyone/get owned.

[kayozz]

I think my point of contention is how fast one threat seems to spring up. Dragon then Ninja whilst the heretics are causing havoc, the traitor is bombing shit... Pirates causing havoc. All within minutes.
It almost feels like the only option is to force a round end shuttle call.

On a yellow star with barely any security.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

On the note of the appeal, I'm a little disappointed with how TBM frames it in that last message there. "Well all the information we learned would make the note worse because we know what the mime did"

Sure, the Mime rode a skateboard and smacked into an officer once by mistake and once by lag, but both of those were happening while they were trying to capture a dangerous threat, which was believed to be a Changeling if I'm not mistaken. During a hectic super duper high chaos round. You also can't say that "it's a self-fulfilling prophecy" when it was the Mime's actions that lead to it. The prophecy wouldn't have been fulfilled (probably) if he'd just stayed in his cell, to claim otherwise is to say it was inevitable, and not that "okay the Mime's trying to escape and free another prisoner, I don't have time for this".

It feels like Jeff's fate was already decided.

[RedBaronFlyer]

On the note of the appeal, I'm a little disappointed with how TBM frames it in that last message there. "Well all the information we learned would make the note worse because we know what the mime did"

Sure, the Mime rode a skateboard and smacked into an officer once by mistake and once by lag, but both of those were happening while they were trying to capture a dangerous threat, which was believed to be a Changeling if I'm not mistaken. During a hectic super duper high chaos round. You also can't say that "it's a self-fulfilling prophecy" when it was the Mime's actions that lead to it. The prophecy wouldn't have been fulfilled (probably) if he'd just stayed in his cell, to claim otherwise is to say it was inevitable, and not that "okay the Mime's trying to escape and free another prisoner, I don't have time for this".

It feels like Jeff's fate was already decided.

Unfortunately Jeff is in the stage 4 terminal phase where notes and bans are leading to more notes and bans. Even if Jeff were a perfect sec main and never did anything wrong for the next four months he’d still get hit harder for making a mistake compared to someone else doing the same thing.

It’s a damn shame too, because Jeff is our best sec main on Manuel who also isn’t a dick with a stick up their ass like most sec mains. I don’t feel like he’d do well or enjoy being sec as much on LRP like some admins are saying.

I feel like he’s getting punished for acting on incomplete information when SS13 is a game where you have to act on incomplete information. It’s why, in my experience, admins tend to wash their hands of it when it comes high threat rounds like rev rounds since a lot of friendly fire happens.

For instance, I ahelped a QM who randomly shot and killed killed a bitrunner for not being mindshieleded during revs, the QM proceeded to decapitate and space the bitrunner’s body. Cargo was under no immediate threat, the bitrunner wasn’t resisting (in fact they were busy hacking an abandoned crate) and would have likely accepted being tied up and mindshielded.

No admins responded to the ahelp at the end of that round nor the beginning of the next round. I later learned (through scrubby and endround chat) that QM was a blood brother but he was running around with a mosin gunning down anything with two legs that didn’t have a mindshield for a fair amount of the shift. (The later part is heresay until I verify it through scrubby but the way the QM rambled about TGCM’s, I wouldn’t doubt it)

I understand security is held to a different standard but goddamn.

This whole thing sounds like it was a shit show and I don’t think Jeff was in the right but at the same time I’ve been detained for something I haven’t done awaiting questioning/sentencing before without trying to escape. If the station was going to hell though I can get why the mime might have tried to escape though.

I doubt this will get overturned if he does a headmin appeal because he’s already halfway toward getting it denied. Appealing a headmin placed ban/note is always tricky because of that.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

Unfortunately Jeff is in the stage 4 terminal phase where notes and bans are leading to more notes and bans. Even if Jeff were a perfect sec main and never did anything wrong for the next four months he’d still get hit harder for making a mistake compared to someone else doing the same thing.

It’s a damn shame too, because Jeff is our best sec main on Manuel who also isn’t a dick with a stick up their ass like most sec mains. I don’t feel like he’d do well or enjoy being sec as much on LRP like some admins are saying.

I feel like he’s getting punished for acting on incomplete information when SS13 is a game where you have to act on incomplete information. It’s why, in my experience, admins tend to wash their hands of it when it comes high threat rounds like rev rounds since a lot of friendly fire happens.

Exactly! He doesn't know the situation, all he's got is a "The Mime's in here timerless and wasn't released before the officers ran off, this probably is something major." and that person is not only trying to escape, but trying to free someone he arrested and demoted who...was actively turning on him. Perma was destroyed, so the only alternative to a Timerless Cell for long-term holding someone is to just kill them. At worst, the Mime got the same outcome they might've gotten otherwise.

For instance, I ahelped a QM who randomly shot and killed killed a bitrunner for not being mindshieleded during revs, the QM proceeded to decapitate and space the bitrunner’s body. Cargo was under no immediate threat, the bitrunner wasn’t resisting (in fact they were busy hacking an abandoned crate) and would have likely accepted being tied up and mindshielded.

No admins responded to the ahelp at the end of that round nor the beginning of the next round. I later learned (through scrubby and endround chat) that QM was a blood brother but he was running around with a mosin gunning down anything with two legs that didn’t have a mindshield for a fair amount of the shift. (The later part is heresay until I verify it through scrubby but the way the QM rambled about TGCM’s, I wouldn’t doubt it)

I understand security is held to a different standard but goddamn.

The funny thing is that Command is ALSO held to a higher standard, if memory serves; but if he was an antag it's a little bit different.

But the moral is just. Jeff's one of the few people willing to fuckin' brave the state of Dynamic right now, while TRYING to put in an effort to RP as much as he can, without turning into one of the jaded, cynical assholes, and gets smacked for...making a minor mistake while trying to make the best of a bad situation. "I would've been fine with you killing him if you'd said something" means the Kill was fine, his only mistake was just that he didn't talk.

[CPTANT]

"most of the context we've since learned since this ban was place is only going to make the note look worse given the realizations of what the mime had actually done. which was, rode a skateboard, smacked into an officer once by mistake, and then once by lag, "

This is such a bad take because the other side is NEVER EVER going to know if you are having lag and nobody is going to think doing it twice is a mistake while you are busy arresting an antag. In fact there is nothing to indicate it is true in the first place except the mime's word, for all I know he actually did do it on purpose.

[TheBibleMelts]

"most of the context we've since learned since this ban was place is only going to make the note look worse given the realizations of what the mime had actually done. which was, rode a skateboard, smacked into an officer once by mistake, and then once by lag, "

This is such a bad take because the other side is NEVER EVER going to know if you are having lag and nobody is going to think doing it twice is a mistake while you are busy arresting an antag. In fact there is nothing to indicate it is true in the first place except the mime's word, for all I know he actually did do it on purpose.

so what other context have we learned that he feels should be added? my post was meant to specify that all we've gained contextually here in discussions is more indication that the mime wasn't tiding, which is what everybody claimed prior.

[CPTANT]

"most of the context we've since learned since this ban was place is only going to make the note look worse given the realizations of what the mime had actually done. which was, rode a skateboard, smacked into an officer once by mistake, and then once by lag, "

This is such a bad take because the other side is NEVER EVER going to know if you are having lag and nobody is going to think doing it twice is a mistake while you are busy arresting an antag. In fact there is nothing to indicate it is true in the first place except the mime's word, for all I know he actually did do it on purpose.

so what other context have we learned that he feels should be added? my post was meant to specify that all we've gained contextually here in discussions is more indication that the mime wasn't tiding, which is what everybody claimed prior.

I would consider Interfering with an arrest (twice) to absolutely fall under tiding.

[RaveRadbury]

No. There are servers that cater to that experience. We are not one of them, nor should we ever be. Doubt the headmins would consider it.

[JupiterJaeden]

No. There are servers that cater to that experience. We are not one of them, nor should we ever be. Doubt the headmins would consider it.

did you mean to post this in the non-human heads thread lol

[RaveRadbury]

No. There are servers that cater to that experience. We are not one of them, nor should we ever be. Doubt the headmins would consider it.

did you mean to post this in the non-human heads thread lol

I did yeah lmao