Savage Security Speedster Sabotaged by Scheming Shotgun scheme

[Blacklist897]

Bottom post of the previous page:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=35552
Ban itself seems bullshit but jeff has hit that time of note critical mass
if Manny loses its most active hos main then someone will have to fill the gap and I really don't want to play hos more

[conrad]

You're right, players won't go to headmins or MSO if they think theyre in on it. They'll just leave. And I don't want that for us.

If they think this supposed stink rises up to the host and headmins obviously they'll leave. I wonder what makes them think other servers are gonna be different.

Maybe if they're THAT worried, then SS13 isn't the sort of game they'll enjoy.

There's no secret admin kabal that bows to the grace of the all-knowing host and his headmins. It's just a multiplayer game bro lmao

[TheRex9001]

I pray to my shrine to MSO every night

[Jezzared]

There's no secret admin kabal that bows to the grace of the all-knowing host and his headmins. It's just a multiplayer game bro lmao

I don't think that there is. You're the one who brought the whole thing up. All I'm saying is that this ban has kicked the hornets nest, and so handling it with tact is a better course of action than saying "trust me bro" when part of the ban that doesn't sit right with people is lorwp dragging the admin team into it by proxy of things like "they're just telling me to ban you" and "we don't like you here". Lorwp has implicated more than just themselves in the distrust by doing this, and so handling that with delicacy is better for the health of the discussion and for player-admin relations as a whole.

I'm not a conspiracy nut. Largely I'm pro-jeff and pro-admins and just want yall to not get dragged down because of poor word choice or tact because I think we can all come to a respectable conclusion about this in the end. I just don't want the path there to get messy and heated.

[AsbestosSniffer]

Well, guess that's that then. I can foresee this thread having a long and prosperous future.

[conrad]

You're the one who brought the whole thing up.

Ye ye you're right, I just feel the need to try and reiterate that (seems I'm not the only one that does) 'cos all it takes is for someone to use the wrong/less savoury words for people who inexplicably still play here despite hating the entire admin team as this one evil organisation hellbent on ruining their fun (yes, I'm talking about you in the peanut gallery audience reading this, yes you specifically, no not you, the pretty one) to come out of the woodwork and spill vitriol about every person with a coloured name. Calling this exercise silly is just par for the course I feel.

All I'm saying is that this ban has kicked the hornets nest, and so handling it with tact is a better course of action than saying "trust me bro" when part of the ban that doesn't sit right with people is lorwp dragging the admin team into it by proxy of things like "they're just telling me to ban you" and "we don't like you here". Lorwp has implicated more than just themselves in the distrust by doing this, and so handling that with delicacy is better for the health of the discussion and for player-admin relations as a whole.

I sorta skimmed through the ban's thread and the nut, so I didn't see this. I kinda focused on the "hurr durr admin team bad" part. If what you're saying is true then yeah it's pretty bad, and I personally trust the current head administration to steer this in the right direction, bollockings provided as needed.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the peanut doesn't matter and we shouldn't get mad at each other over a ban.

E: nevermind ban lifted horray

I'm not a conspiracy nut. Largely I'm pro-jeff and pro-admins and just want yall to not get dragged down because of poor word choice or tact because I think we can all come to a respectable conclusion about this in the end. I just don't want the path there to get messy and heated.

Fam I'm with you 100% here ong fr fr

[dendydoom]

basically what we learned from this is that i continue to be right about everything

[Jezzared]

basically what we learned from this is that i continue to be right about everything

Dendy based as always.

[conrad]

basically what we learned from this is that i continue to be right about everything

lmao sigged for obvious reasons

[Archie700]

In hindsight, it really was pretty bad of a ban. A lot of nuance was missed and we forgot that we shouldn't ban for non-ideality of handling things, only outright stupidity.
Something we forget is that players don't play perfectly.
Yes, Jeff has a lot of non-lethal tools, but that doesn't matter much if he shot the person to crit just from two shotgun blasts and allowed him to be revived from crit (not even death)
We also tend to forget that people don't mentally calculate health, and we shouldn't expect people to know how much rubber bullets deal when the use was for stunning.

[Vekter]

Dendy based as always.

E: lorwp lifted the ban, the system works

[TheLoLSwat]

we have our first lolcow ban of 2024

[Vekter]

we have our first lolcow ban of 2024

Incorrect.

[TheLoLSwat]

we have our first lolcow ban of 2024

Incorrect.

you make a good point, which is why i remembered to specify that this is the first lolcow ban, and not the first lolcow ban appeal. Both are fun but lolcow bans are magnitudes more entertaining than a dogpile on someone who should really just be tossed out (which are the more common ban appeals by lolcows aka lolcow ban appeals)

[Archie700]

I can't post the logs for obvious reasons, but I can assure you that other conversations were had about the ban in general and that Sight's comment likely didn't play into why the ban was placed. Everyone pretty much immediately recognized it as a joke.

That is not as reassuring as you think it is.

We really can't to preserve secrecy into discussions between admins, so we're really sorry we can't reassure you of this.

[conrad]

we have our first lolcow ban of 2024

Incorrect.

you make a good point, which is why i remembered to specify that this is the first lolcow ban, and not the first lolcow ban appeal. Both are fun but lolcow bans are magnitudes more entertaining than a dogpile on someone who should really just be tossed out (which are the more common ban appeals by lolcows aka lolcow ban appeals)

Yeah but your name literally has lol in it and your character is a cow so you have a bias.

[Sightld2]

It does not inspire confidence when the very first post on this thread is;

My honest, live reaction
[2597-13-56 00:53:18.008] GAME-INCOMPAT: ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: sightid2/(Terrabyte) "he used a shotgun, we finally got him."

Regardless if it was posted as a joke or not.

Vekter, I love both you and Sight.

"I can vouch that nobody took this joke about banning a guy who got banned seriously, no you cant see the logs, take my word as truth." Is not a great look for the admin team when part of the discontent here is that the admin team might not be able to be trusted.

It was a joke. The log is dated to the year Two thousand five hundred and ninety seven. Dated to the time BOOBIES spelled backwards. It says Game-INCOMPAT. Sightid2 is not my ckey. It wouldn't be possible for me to be adminned as Terrabyte given that it's a silicon role. It's not even a real but edited log, I wrote it in discord last night. I had first posted that the night before in response to this:

But I get that that context doesn't show. Still, the title of his ban appeal references an Anti-Shotgun Mafia, and I was ribbing off that as well.

If you think it was an insensitive or in poor taste, that's fine, I'm sorry.

But I was joking about this to the guy we're actually talking about and I thought he seemed fine with them as seen here:

If you weren't Jupiter, my bad.

[oranges]

he used a shotgun, we got him.

[Jezzared]

snip

It seemed immensely out of character for it NOT to be a joke. All that data is garbage data to me typically so my brain (and probably most other peoples) just filtered it out.

[Insert Dark Souls Humanity Restored Gif here]

[Timonk]

he used a shotgun, we got him.

I used the shotgun. You know why? Cause the shot gun doesn’t miss: and unlike the shitty taser it stops a criminal in their tracks in two hits. Bang: bang: and they’re fucking done. I use four shots just to make damn sure. Because: once again: I’m not there to coddle a buncha criminal scum sucking *******: I’m there to 1) Survive the fucking round. 2) Guard the armory. So you can absolutely get fucked. If I get unbanned: which I won’t: you can guarantee I will continue to use the shotgun to apprehend criminals. Because it’s quick: clean and effective as fuck. Why in the seven hells would I fuck around with the disabler shots: which take half a clip just to bring someone down: or with the tazer bolts which are slow as balls: impossible to aim and do about next to jack shit: fuck all. The shotgun is the superior law enforcement weapon. Because it stops crime. And it stops crime by reducing the number of criminals roaming the fucking halls.

[oranges]

Hey space-fellows, it's your citrusy comrade oranges here, one-third of the unholy trinity of game designers over at TGStation. Today, let's talk about the absolute absurdity that is the shotgun in our spacelicious masterpiece.

Now, imagine you're cruising through the vast vacuum of space, right? Everything's all high-tech and futuristic, and what do we decide to arm our crew with? Shotguns! Yes, because when I think of space station defense, I definitely picture a grizzled janitor with a double-barreled blaster, ready to take on hostile alien life forms.

I get it, it's iconic and all. Shotguns are like the mullets of weaponry – business in the front, party in the back. But seriously, do you really think in the far-flung future, we'd still be relying on 19th-century Wild West technology to defend our floating metal can of science?

Picture this: You're a brilliant scientist, a mastermind of technological wonders, and suddenly, an alien menace breaches your pristine laboratory. What's your defense? A shotgun! Yes, because apparently, pellets and gunpowder are the pinnacle of intergalactic security measures.

And let's not forget the logistics here. We're on a space station, people! Do you know how messy it is to clean up after a shotgun blast? It's not like we have space Roombas floating around to suck up the shell casings and alien goo. No, it's the poor janitor, armed with his trusty mop, dealing with the aftermath of space-buckshot mayhem.

"But oranges," you say, "it's just a game, lighten up!" Well, my fellow spacefarers, that's where you're wrong. Games are a reflection of reality – a warped, exaggerated, and sometimes downright nonsensical reflection, but a reflection nonetheless. What kind of message are we sending to future generations when we teach them that shotguns are the epitome of space defense?

So, dear players, the next time you pick up that shotgun in TGStation, just remember: oranges is watching, and he's silently judging your questionable taste in intergalactic weaponry. Let's aim for the stars, not scattergun pellets.

[TheLoLSwat]

we have our first lolcow ban of 2024

Incorrect.

you make a good point, which is why i remembered to specify that this is the first lolcow ban, and not the first lolcow ban appeal. Both are fun but lolcow bans are magnitudes more entertaining than a dogpile on someone who should really just be tossed out (which are the more common ban appeals by lolcows aka lolcow ban appeals)

Yeah but your name literally has lol in it so you have a bias.

yeah i know a thing or two about lolcows which is why i was able to declare the first lolcow ban for the new year

[Timonk]

Lisa wheres the nanotrasen wrestling league i want to see Kobe beat the shit out of more fools who dare oppose him

[Dawnseer]

Shotguns are indeed what I expect, and hope to defend space stations with. The patron saint of less-than-lethal, Doomguy would want me to.

[Cheshify]

how is this at 175 posts already

Anyways this can easily be solved by having shotguns 2 shot people again and entirely removing the stamina damage shells. That way, there's no debate about intent.

[MothNyan]

i'm not going to insinuate that people shouldn't vent, because they should and it's why we have open discussions like this, but i do feel like it's worth considering what's actually productive in the end. using a steamroller to address jeff and his note history is unfair because it disregards nuance, and i would say the same about tearing down manuel and every admin because of a ban that is in the early stages of being appealed and investigated. save some torches and pitchforks for the conclusion.

I'm apologize for the strong words I shared earlier, and I agree it's not fair to blanket all admins together as untrustworthy. We're all humans who are not infallible to mistakes or having our intentions misread. The implications of an admin saying that they've talked with other admins behind the scenes and then saying "we don't want you here", was rather concerning to me and honestly along with certain experiences with admins that still give me discomfort when I think back on them; I couldn't help but feel pretty emotional when I wrote my original comment too. I have also had many amazing experiences with admins which I did not acknowledge, and again; I'm sorry.

I don't understand the whole "I don't trust the admin team" rigmarole. Who do you expect is gonna fix that? The headmins? Those are admins too. Even when kieth was ellected, he was an admin and took most of his decisions in tandem with the overall objectives of the admin team.

If they think this supposed stink rises up to the host and headmins obviously they'll leave. I wonder what makes them think other servers are gonna be different.
Maybe if they're THAT worried, then SS13 isn't the sort of game they'll enjoy.

I understand that there are many players that get very heated about the idea of admins yet continue to play the game while continuing about their distaste, and that it must be difficult as admins to have to be dragged through the mud like that. Typically the hope would be that people (both admins and players) could self reflect and find ways to compromise, but not everyone is capable of doing so either. Personally, due to my sensitivity and feeling upset to the point that I have gotten nightmares over an event I have been wondering if SS13 is really a game for me too. I have friends on Manuel and I don't particularly have fun on other servers because it's not the same people or atmosphere - if I give up on Manuel I would simply move on to other games. Something I still consider as I don't want to bother people with my emotions.

We really can't to preserve secrecy into discussions between admins, so we're really sorry we can't reassure you of this.

I appreciate it, I understand some degree of secrecy is necessary.

It was a joke. The log is dated to the year Two thousand five hundred and ninety seven. Dated to the time BOOBIES spelled backwards. It says Game-INCOMPAT. Sightid2 is not my ckey. It wouldn't be possible for me to be adminned as Terrabyte given that it's a silicon role. It's not even a real but edited log, I wrote it in discord last night.

Honestly it's funnier in hindsight now that I know the full context, and I want to also apologize to you that it came off as if I was shit-talking about you. I have no problems with you as an admin and I believe I've only really seen good things from you - I want you to know that it wasn't a personal vendetta against you when I shared my discomfort earlier and I took the joke the wrong way.
At the time I felt uncomfortable because it gave the impression that you were just waiting for a moment to lynch Jeff lol, which sounds absolutely silly honestly. I also do love the shotgun copypasta, it's pretty iconic.

Just as Vekter doesn't like Sight being "attacked", I don't much appreciate Moth being "attacked" like this. I've only ever seen them be a positive and kind person and to hear that they are this scared of current admins and then have an admin accuse them of slander and "shittalking" while describing their discomfort sits very poorly with me.

Thank you.

I'm glad things are resolved now.

[dendydoom]

i'm not going to insinuate that people shouldn't vent, because they should and it's why we have open discussions like this, but i do feel like it's worth considering what's actually productive in the end. using a steamroller to address jeff and his note history is unfair because it disregards nuance, and i would say the same about tearing down manuel and every admin because of a ban that is in the early stages of being appealed and investigated. save some torches and pitchforks for the conclusion.

I'm apologize for the strong words I shared earlier, and I agree it's not fair to blanket all admins together as untrustworthy. We're all humans who are not infallible to mistakes or having our intentions misread. The implications of an admin saying that they've talked with other admins behind the scenes and then saying "we don't want you here", was rather concerning to me and honestly along with certain experiences with admins that still give me discomfort when I think back on them; I couldn't help but feel pretty emotional when I wrote my original comment too. I have also had many amazing experiences with admins which I did not acknowledge, and again; I'm sorry.

thanks for your post and kind words. there really is no apology necessary; i think it's entirely fair to be critical of making a decision, then when questioned about its reasoning referring to a secret conversation that is going on in the background.

we have internal discussions about almost every ban that's in the process of being made, because the game is so complicated that depending on a single person's interpretation isn't very reliable. but when we put our name down on a note or ban, it's ours, and we are the ones that have to answer for its reasoning. this is part of the high level of trust and responsibility that's placed on us.

sometimes bad bans just happen. admins run out of patience or goodwill, they might have been singlehandedly dealing with a stressful round or juggling a bunch of tickets or any number of things. it's important that we keep each other in check in those moments and have faith in the systems that are in place to ensure that they're investigated properly and fairly. equally i would not expect bans to be lifted on the merit of public response alone either. it is actually quite easy to drum up people into a frenzy over something. but the discussions are valuable and should not be dismissed. we should deal with things by the content of people's analysis and the facts of the matter, not by opening the windows of the court and listening to how much yelling is going on outside.

finally (sorry for this being a novel), for what it's worth, i think it wouldn't be a waste of time to consider reaching out to any admins you trust to maybe discuss the event that made you uncomfortable. i have faith that whoever ran that event wouldn't have intended to have made you feel that way, but it doesn't change that reality and it might be a conversation worth having. but this is entirely up to you, and i'm really sorry to hear that you went through that.

[TheFinalPotato]

Anyways this can easily be solved by having shotguns 2 shot people again and entirely removing the stamina damage shells. That way, there's no debate about intent.

I'm admitting to a bit of lack of info here because I honestly thought this was about beanbag slugs (the ones we give to the bar) and got real mad about this post.

But looking at it they're reasonably comparable. same amount of stam (five out of six shots landing) leads to like 5 more points of brute with shells but like, that's nothin.
These are less then lethal weapons. They might BE lethal if used with that kind of intention, and removing the brute just to make the bartender able to crowd control without commiting lethals is fuckin dumb man.

So no, we aren't removin em (tho I admit to thinking we only really need these or beanbags, not both). I feel quite strongly that you need to develop better policy on this, cause your current one is real dumb.

[Yulice]

Hey space-fellows, it's your citrusy comrade oranges here, one-third of the unholy trinity of game designers over at TGStation. Today, let's talk about the absolute absurdity that is the shotgun in our spacelicious masterpiece.

Now, imagine you're cruising through the vast vacuum of space, right? Everything's all high-tech and futuristic, and what do we decide to arm our crew with? Shotguns! Yes, because when I think of space station defense, I definitely picture a grizzled janitor with a double-barreled blaster, ready to take on hostile alien life forms.

I get it, it's iconic and all. Shotguns are like the mullets of weaponry – business in the front, party in the back. But seriously, do you really think in the far-flung future, we'd still be relying on 19th-century Wild West technology to defend our floating metal can of science?

Picture this: You're a brilliant scientist, a mastermind of technological wonders, and suddenly, an alien menace breaches your pristine laboratory. What's your defense? A shotgun! Yes, because apparently, pellets and gunpowder are the pinnacle of intergalactic security measures.

And let's not forget the logistics here. We're on a space station, people! Do you know how messy it is to clean up after a shotgun blast? It's not like we have space Roombas floating around to suck up the shell casings and alien goo. No, it's the poor janitor, armed with his trusty mop, dealing with the aftermath of space-buckshot mayhem.

"But oranges," you say, "it's just a game, lighten up!" Well, my fellow spacefarers, that's where you're wrong. Games are a reflection of reality – a warped, exaggerated, and sometimes downright nonsensical reflection, but a reflection nonetheless. What kind of message are we sending to future generations when we teach them that shotguns are the epitome of space defense?

So, dear players, the next time you pick up that shotgun in TGStation, just remember: oranges is watching, and he's silently judging your questionable taste in intergalactic weaponry. Let's aim for the stars, not scattergun pellets.

Funny but also consider: Shotgun cool.

[GPeckman]

And let's not forget the logistics here. We're on a space station, people! Do you know how messy it is to clean up after a shotgun blast? It's not like we have space Roombas floating around to suck up the shell casings and alien goo. No, it's the poor janitor, armed with his trusty mop, dealing with the aftermath of space-buckshot mayhem.

And that's why we have laser guns. The same weapons that can't be reloaded if the power happens to go out. What were you saying about logistics again?

I'm being flippant here, but the whole "it doesn't make sense to have shotguns on a space station" thing shouldn't be any more of an issue than "the way these laser guns are designed (20 or so shots maximum, then maybe 30 seconds of downtime in a stock recharger) makes no sense."

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Another thread resolved by the banning admin suddenly realising they actually were wrong all along and subconsciously knew they were making a mistake and hadn't properly considered it during the very long and detailed ticket or their thorough rejection in the thread which they scoured and edited logs for.

[JupiterJaeden]

In hindsight, it really was pretty bad of a ban. A lot of nuance was missed and we forgot that we shouldn't ban for non-ideality of handling things, only outright stupidity.
Something we forget is that players don't play perfectly.
Yes, Jeff has a lot of non-lethal tools, but that doesn't matter much if he shot the person to crit just from two shotgun blasts and allowed him to be revived from crit (not even death)
We also tend to forget that people don't mentally calculate health, and we shouldn't expect people to know how much rubber bullets deal when the use was for stunning.

I also didn’t even realize the guy was apparently crit because he was healed out of it so fast. I would have healed him immediately if I knew, just like I healed him later when I did notice he was crit from something else.

[JupiterJaeden]

how is this at 175 posts already

Anyways this can easily be solved by having shotguns 2 shot people again and entirely removing the stamina damage shells. That way, there's no debate about intent.

Cheshify with the 100% correct take
#BringBackImprovs

[dendydoom]

he posted in the peanut, we finally got him

re-apply the ban

[kieth4]

I don't understand the whole "I don't trust the admin team" rigmarole. Who do you expect is gonna fix that? The headmins?

I'm not going to mention anything I did because self jack off in public is cringe but I think timber did a good job during his term to work to raise player trust.

The decisions that were made had very clear reasoning- with an opportunity for back and forth a lot of the time. A lot of the decisions were very sound and a lot of my admin hating friends found a respect for him despite talking a lot of shit previously.

He seemed to always be present in the very right places and I think he did an awesome job. When it came to bans or appeals, he always was able to whip out logs and provide justification ect and be present everywhere.

At least in the groups I've been in this certainly did raise players perception of the administration as a whole and timber hasn't played for like 90000 years.

I do not think that's it's an impossible task for the headmins to positively influence perception becuz I saw it happen in real time with t-dog.

Edit: for clarity, I'm not commenting on this term or anything (I've not been active enough forums side to see what they've been doing) I just wanted to take a moment to make the comment that certainly yes, headmins can positively influence perception

[DrAmazing343]

I approve of making shotguns a two shot down with LETHAL damage. I want bartenders to be WEAPONIZED.

[Blacklist897]

he posted in the peanut, we finally got him

re-apply the ban

He posted in it back on page 1 you fool

[Yulice]

I approve of making shotguns a two shot down with LETHAL damage. I want bartenders to be WEAPONIZED.

They can already do this just make shotgun darts at an autolathe and then fill them with bacchus or something lol

[BrianBackslide]

Guess 2024 won't be the year I decide to learn to be a seccie.

[DrAmazing343]

I approve of making shotguns a two shot down with LETHAL damage. I want bartenders to be WEAPONIZED.

They can already do this just make shotgun darts at an autolathe and then fill them with bacchus or something lol

Yeah but shotgun darts are fucking LAME I want BUCKSHOT

[Nist]

Dendy based as always.

E: lorwp lifted the ban, the system works

based lowrp

[Rageguy505]

Now, imagine you're cruising through the vast vacuum of space, right? Everything's all high-tech and futuristic, and what do we decide to arm our crew with? Shotguns! Yes, because when I think of space station defense, I definitely picture a grizzled janitor with a double-barreled blaster, ready to take on hostile alien life forms.

[TheRex9001]

Glad this ban was lifted

[Constellado]

I didn't look at the forums for a couple days...

[kieth4]

Hopefully the admin takes this as a moment to reflect in not following what asay/others tell you without first having a concrete foot to stand on(which feels like what happened, a lot of "we's" in this ticket). Glad this is resolved and hope going forward it's taken as a learning experience.

[Jacquerel]

I approve of making shotguns a two shot down with LETHAL damage. I want bartenders to be WEAPONIZED.

shotguns should do no damage, apply a "shotgunned" wound
being shot by a shotgun while "shotgunned" causes you to die instantly

this satisfies all parties because technically the first shot does no damage so you can fire a shotgun non-lethally as long as you only do it once

[iansdoor]

I approve of making shotguns a two shot down with LETHAL damage. I want bartenders to be WEAPONIZED.

shotguns should do no damage, apply a "shotgunned" wound
being shot by a shotgun while "shotgunned" causes you to die instantly

this satisfies all parties because technically the first shot does no damage so you can fire a shotgun non-lethally as long as you only do it once

I would argue for organ damage by shotguns. Particularly if they were non-lethal, since being shot by a rubber buck would knock the air out of your lungs.

[DrAmazing343]

I approve of making shotguns a two shot down with LETHAL damage. I want bartenders to be WEAPONIZED.

shotguns should do no damage, apply a "shotgunned" wound
being shot by a shotgun while "shotgunned" causes you to die instantly

this satisfies all parties because technically the first shot does no damage so you can fire a shotgun non-lethally as long as you only do it once

this is actually straight up how shotguns work in Fear and Hunger 2

[Itseasytosee2me]

Well. No. The Disabler would have taken five shots, to the shotguns two. It's more comparable to a baton. Except faster. And dealt 30 damage.

I have nothing to say about the rest of your post but saying the shotgun beats the baton is crazy.

[DATAxPUNGED]

Also i just wanna say the title is impeccable, godspeed

[oranges]

Hopefully the admin takes this as a moment to reflect in not following what asay/others tell you without first having a concrete foot to stand on(which feels like what happened, a lot of "we's" in this ticket). Glad this is resolved and hope going forward it's taken as a learning experience.

how u look saying this

[Dax Dupont]

I can't believe how Jeff could do this. This is insane, deranged and wrong. How could he do something as indefensible like using light mode on Windows.