🌙 Headmin Election 19 Discussion Thread 🌙

[dragomagol]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Who will wax? Who will wane? Will Cheshify make someone cry at the debates? Find out on today's edition of the Headmin Elections!

Campaign Threads:
Rex9001
Kieth4
Timberpoes
TheBibleMelts
WalterMeldron
Kinnebian
DendyDoom
Tegun
Tattle

[kinnebian]

GOD DAMN SHAPS
MIC DROP

[conrad]

Shaps is mad dayum

E: Actually, not even mad. I don't thing there's any angee there, cos they ain't wrong.

[dendydoom]

kieth is getting hit with the real questions. to call it anything like dogpiling or any such nonsense that points to some sort of player/admin divide fuelling this would be very reductive.

firstly, admins have the sum total of 0 influence on the player vote. voting to combat admin sentiment is sorta just granting them that power anyway. admins know that players like kieth and that calling something out will probably just reinforce that support. but i'm glad that they do it anyway because the discussion is more important than the optics of people disagreeing. the player vote belongs to the players, they should vote based on player concerns, rather than because they think admins talking shop in heightened voices is mean. but again, i have 0 influence on this. do what you want!

secondly, these concerns are as real as players'. plenty of admins like kieth, but they also know that they will have to bend the knee to him if he gets in. this server is not run on friendship and everyone being totes chill with each other. while it's nice to have that, we are interested in serving and maintaining something which is greater than us individually. plenty of admins are concerned over the impact this stuff will have on the things they care about. sound familiar?

shaps is also right when they said that admins are much more integral to enforcement and server culture than headmins. headmins might make decrees from the tip of the INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS tower, but it's admins that are the actual presence on the server and dictate how and when the rules are enforced. in my time as admin, i've been spoken to a total of once about changes the headmins wanted me to make to my specific way of adminning. this was when i was a trial. since then i've been left alone to operate independently, and this is how it is for all admins. we have ownership over our position and the rulings we make as part of it.

if admins don't like your conduct as a headmin, then they will probably not be all that interested in putting in the extra effort ensuring your vision is enforced on the servers. there are ways to address this, but every admin already has their own ideas about enforcement and server culture. it's part of the headmin's responsibility to navigate that and work with admins to refine that, not just sit on the throne and micromanage how they handle tickets with a megaphone. you can either rule by love, respect or fear. in a game staffed by volunteers who can just stop whenever they want, i question how well the last one would work.

these are all the realities of a kieth term. players get to enjoy the spectacle and then go home when the election ends. for admins it's day 1 of just another 6 months of business. they are more concerned with the long term realities of a candidate.

[WineAllWine]

I quite like Kieth but damn Shaps is taking no prisoners

[TheLoLSwat]

Keithamaniacs we will not flinch! They come after the honest hardworking man!

[BonChoi]

Why is it such an issue that a player would want to run for a policy making position in the server's leadership. After all, aren't they the ones that are the most effected by the changes if they have nothing else going on other than playing the game? We consistently tell people that they should code their own changes, so I see no problem in someone taking matters into their own hands if they're unhappy and changing things.

[BonChoi]

Maybe we all take this too seriously and would benefit from taking a step back and really looking at the reality of the situation. And that's just in general, not really specifically aimed at anyone / anything.

[dragomagol]

Maybe we all take this too seriously and would benefit from taking a step back and really looking at the reality of the situation. And that's just in general, not really specifically aimed at anyone / anything.

[BonChoi]

Maybe we all take this too seriously and would benefit from taking a step back and really looking at the reality of the situation. And that's just in general, not really specifically aimed at anyone / anything.

VERY TRUE AND WELL SAID REGGIE THANK YOU VERY MUCH

[dendydoom]

Why is it such an issue that a player would want to run for a policy making position in the server's leadership. After all, aren't they the ones that are the most effected by the changes if they have nothing else going on other than playing the game? We consistently tell people that they should code their own changes, so I see no problem in someone taking matters into their own hands if they're unhappy and changing things.

there is 0 issue with this. if you're referring to kieth, he is a very popular player and candidate. there is lots of player support for him. he does not need admin votes to get the position he wants, but nonetheless admins are the people he will have to work with, so their concerns should be important to this process because it will speak to the possible future of their working relationship. admins probably already know this so there is no reason for them to really couch their language or watch their tone. they want to talk business because they have experience of working with kieth before and want certain answers from him.

he is also in a rare position. he has already had a term. the first time, there were nil expectations for his premiership. now he is trying to return after already having held the position once. this is not a naive player trying to gain a shot at headmin, this is someone who has already done it before but then left afterwards. something headmins usually don't do. he is not clueless to how these things are, and if anyone should have the gift of knowledge it should be him: he has existed as both a player who curries player favour and a headmin in one of the highest positions in the community. there are not many of us who can share in the knowledge of that experience.

of course, these are all just observations. i'm watching these interesting times from an already very privileged position. as i've said before: i had good memories of kieth last time. i'm cool working with anyone who is on the ballot.

[Timberpoes]

It's a read between the lines moment.

There are very specific targetted incidents that a lot of the negative admin comments are referencing without referencing.

Instead of paragraphs, people just need to be direct and say what's on their mind in 10 words or less. It's how Kieth's brain operates.

[BonChoi]

It's a read between the lines moment.

There are very specific targetted incidents that a lot of the negative admin comments are referencing without referencing.

Instead of paragraphs, people just need to be direct and say what's on their mind in 10 words or less. It's how Kieth's brain operates.

I wish as a player they would be clear too, but if it's something that is shrouded by the secrecy of admin communication channels I think that it aughta stay within the admin communication channels.

[conrad]

Well that's why I asked pretty direct questions targeted at things as he did them, same as I did for the other two former headmins before tragedy struck at home and I momentarily lost interest in RPing Anton Ego. But now he's stuck arguing with shaps instead of addressing my honest, fair questions so I guess I spooked him.

Btw, if you think "admins are dog piling the player headmin", respectfully, you're a dumbass. Read dendis essay, it stated quite correctly where that feeling comes from.

Also I'm glad Kieth hasn't played the "They're coming for me cos they're admins" victim card, as that would be a really, really weak.

[Lizardistaken]

Well that's why I asked pretty direct questions targeted at things as he did them, same as I did for the other two former headmins before tragedy struck at home and I momentarily lost interest in RPing Anton Ego. But now he's stuck arguing with shaps instead of addressing my honest, fair questions so I guess I spooked him.

Btw, if you think "admins are dog piling the player headmin", respectfully, you're a dumbass. Read dendis essay, it stated quite correctly where that feeling comes from.

Also I'm glad Kieth hasn't played the "They're coming for me cos they're admins" victim card, as that would be a really, really weak.

i am not saying that this is what is 100% happening, but it does look a lot like dogpiling when he is the only one getting about 5+ admins overwhelming his thread with all kinds of questions while every other thread consists of rather simple ones and people going "i like this guy". like you have to admit that this looks bad from an outside perspective, it's definitely not a situation where you can call people "dumbasses" for thinking that.

also i'm pretty sure he's just too busy looking at the numerous other questions in his thread rather than being "spooked" by you...

[BonChoi]

Well that's why I asked pretty direct questions targeted at things as he did them, same as I did for the other two former headmins before tragedy struck at home and I momentarily lost interest in RPing Anton Ego. But now he's stuck arguing with shaps instead of addressing my honest, fair questions so I guess I spooked him.

Btw, if you think "admins are dog piling the player headmin", respectfully, you're a dumbass. Read dendis essay, it stated quite correctly where that feeling comes from.

Also I'm glad Kieth hasn't played the "They're coming for me cos they're admins" victim card, as that would be a really, really weak.

I absolutely have nothing against how he's being treated nor the questions that you had asked, but I do object to you calling other members of this community who think differently, at least on this subject, dumbasses (respectfully or not), although I recognize that you are well within your right to be able to do so. I feel it's an awfully tactless and provocative way to describe other people with differing opinions. I don't nor does anyone else come here to have our intelligence insulted (although I will be the first person to wholly tell you that I am in fact a dumb motherfucker a lot of the time.)

[kinnebian]

Instead of paragraphs, people just need to be direct and say what's on their mind in 10 words or less. It's how Kieth's brain operates.

i can very heavily relate to this
i like to think im alright at policy discussion and debates but i find it hard to engage when much reading inbetween lines is required

(i also think this is a good quality to have in a headmin, as sometimes I find a direct approach to rulemaking is benefited from greatly)

[Timberpoes]

The headmin elections brings out the best and the worst in all of us.

[TheRex9001]

Keith got permabanned. People being more sceptical now makes complete sense.

[conrad]

Well that's why I asked pretty direct questions targeted at things as he did them, same as I did for the other two former headmins before tragedy struck at home and I momentarily lost interest in RPing Anton Ego. But now he's stuck arguing with shaps instead of addressing my honest, fair questions so I guess I spooked him.

Btw, if you think "admins are dog piling the player headmin", respectfully, you're a dumbass. Read dendis essay, it stated quite correctly where that feeling comes from.

Also I'm glad Kieth hasn't played the "They're coming for me cos they're admins" victim card, as that would be a really, really weak.

i am not saying that this is what is 100% happening, but it does look a lot like dogpiling when he is the only one getting about 5+ admins overwhelming his thread with all kinds of questions while every other thread consists of rather simple ones and people going "i like this guy". like you have to admit that this looks bad from an outside perspective, it's definitely not a situation where you can call people "dumbasses" for thinking that.

also i'm pretty sure he's just too busy looking at the numerous other questions in his thread rather than being "spooked" by you...

Look I understand and even partially subscribe to this "dog pilling optic", not because I agree that it's a thing, but because I agree that it looks like it is a thing, but lemme ask you this: how come this is only happening to Kieth? Is it because his first term possibly had more flaws that positive outcomes and therefore is warranted a closer inspection, or do you have so little faith in the admin team that you're ascribing to the "admins vs players" school of thought?

Perhaps dumbass was too harsh, maybe short sighted. But hey man, if you're voting on someone because you like them rather than what they can tangibly do, go for your favourite one. I prefer to do both.

Meanwhile, let staff ask their potential future boss what they want. This "poor Kieth is being dog piled" kinda paints him mid if he can't take it.

[dendydoom]

i am not saying that this is what is 100% happening, but it does look a lot like dogpiling when he is the only one getting about 5+ admins overwhelming his thread with all kinds of questions while every other thread consists of rather simple ones and people going "i like this guy". like you have to admit that this looks bad from an outside perspective, it's definitely not a situation where you can call people "dumbasses" for thinking that.

also i'm pretty sure he's just too busy looking at the numerous other questions in his thread rather than being "spooked" by you...

admins are not a monolithic entity - we are just a bunch of socially maladjusted weirdos too. but our interests commonly overlap by the nature of our position, and this is likely what you are seeing.

combine this with what timber brought up. a lot of this is conversations being made with heavy inference to previous discussions in kieth's last term, but obviously they cannot just crack that open and talk about the details because it's an admin matter. what we see instead is a lot of talk about "attitudes" and "the way you operate" rather than pointing at a very specific situation with specific context.

and, really, even if we accept that this is angry admins dogpiling the poor player candidate because they're upsetting the secret admin cabal, then it does nothing but good things for the optics of kieth's platform as the player-first player candidate anyway, resulting in more player votes being pushed into his hands.

these are just real concerns from people who happen to be admins, not an attempt to sabotage a candidate. if it was, then this would be the absolute opposite way of how to go about it.

[kinnebian]

ill happily answer any questions guys

[iansdoor]

I am not angry with Keith in the slightest. Timbers made a very very good argument voting for Keith.

I am only interested in Kieth himself alone and not Kieth and 17 other people whispering in his ear.
He is a very good friend, but dam, I don't care for other's opinions when they aren't something that you thought about.

[BonChoi]

ill happily answer any questions guys

what's your favorite chocolate bar?

also how do you address the concerns with your capability given your prior admin career that I can't go into specifics about? (joke)

[kinnebian]

ill happily answer any questions guys

what's your favorite chocolate bar?

also how do you address the concerns with your capability given your prior admin career that I can't go into specifics about? (joke)

i dont eat much chocolate but when i do its usually a dairy milk thin
that or an aero mint

as for your other question...

[conrad]

ill happily answer any questions guys

what's your favorite chocolate bar?

also how do you address the concerns with your capability given your prior admin career that I can't go into specifics about? (joke)

i dont eat much chocolate but when i do its usually a dairy milk thin
that or an aero mint

as for your other question...

Aero mint slaps and I'm tired of people that say it doesn't.

[Higgin]

I'm not sure that I can get to shaps's conclusion just off of ban #s, and Timber's account suggests kieth was active, productive, and communicative - as a headmin, with headmins. policy discussions and ban appeals take place on the forums and discord.

given how much of how the game feels and how the rules are enforced happens at the point of delivery - between admins and players in the round - I'd be more interested in his active hours during his term and commentary about how he was to work with when acting as an admin.

it feels as though if he had a position to advance for the betterment of the game, he should want to have stuck around as an admin to see if it was faithfully adopted in practice - running only to be headmin, without taking or being willing to take a direct hand in the delivery and running of things according to your vision, doesn't seem consistent to me.

unless most of what he thought should be done was mediating ban appeals and changing top-level policy, and he had a general opposition towards admins doing much more than calling most problems IC - if that's the philosophical bearing, I could understand not wanting to be involved as a regular admin rather than an executive, but I don't know anything firsthand - kieth's term is before my recent time.

[Nabski]

Keith got permabanned. People being more sceptical now makes complete sense.

What?

[dendydoom]

kieth was not a bad headmin.

i have no recollection of him breaking conduct or destroying the community and servers with his policies and actions.

he did not headmin like an admin, which is understandable because he always said he didn't want to be an admin. sometimes this rubs people the wrong way because since headmins run the admin team we expect them to act like admins, not players.

obviously i cannot start talking about specific details and situations because not only would it break conduct but it wouldn't really be a fair level of scrutiny either.

admins are asking these questions because it informs what their future working relationship with a second term kieth could look like. he is a serious contender for the role, so they would quite obviously like some serious answers from him for things they felt he didn't live up to last time. that's really all this is. they had criticisms of him last time, and since he's a "real one" they probably expect he'll come back and do the exact same things over again.

[Timberpoes]

I'm not sure that I can get to shaps's conclusion just off of ban #s, and Timber's account suggests kieth was active, productive, and communicative - as a headmin, with headmins. policy discussions and ban appeals take place on the forums and discord.

given how much of how the game feels and how the rules are enforced happens at the point of delivery - between admins and players in the round - I'd be more interested in his active hours during his term and commentary about how he was to work with when acting as an admin.

it feels as though if he had a position to advance for the betterment of the game, he should want to have stuck around as an admin to see if it was faithfully adopted in practice - running only to be headmin, without taking or being willing to take a direct hand in the delivery and running of things according to your vision, doesn't seem consistent to me.

unless most of what he thought should be done was mediating ban appeals and changing top-level policy, and he had a general opposition towards admins doing much more than calling most problems IC - if that's the philosophical bearing, I could understand not wanting to be involved as a regular admin rather than an executive, but I don't know anything firsthand - kieth's term is before my recent time.

The reality is that depending on what kind of changes you want to see, being an admin can be a negative.

A generally hands-off and anti-admin-intervention platform is almost impossible to push as an admin. Your views tend to be in such a minority they're simply ignored and it's difficult to reference this externally for fear of leaking. Trying to rally support for your ideas from vox pops can end up with admin conduct breaches as we're not supposed to rock the boat and are expected to use our privilege of admin channel access to resolve admin problems instead.

Which all adds up to - sometimes the best way to make change happen is from within as a squeaky wheel, and sometimes the best way to make change happen is by being a thorn on the outside.

[TheRex9001]

Keith got permabanned. People being more sceptical now makes complete sense.

What?

Did you miss that whole thing? Tldr: Kieth went to the funeral of a permabanned player and told centcom(more so refering to admins in this context) to kill themselves and to grief in the players memory. It was appealed and lifted this term.

[conrad]

I absolutely dig Timber's answers to my line of inquiry. I think this is the first time I've seen him publicly being humble about my usual tirade of "stop using 'the admin team' loosely" and I appreciate it.

Same for TBM, I think his expression of "we were given the tools" as headmins shows deliberation on the fact they were given evidence to something really bad for the community and chose to protect player privacy. That last bit is a thing I have always espoused; you don't make strawmen outta community members.

Looking forward to seeing how they do in the debate, if they choose to participate.

[Indie-ana Jones]

I apologize if I upset anyone by what I posted on Keith's thread, but I just wanted to show my support for the guy. I don't blame the admins for asking questions though or stating their opinion, as we are all allowed to, but just as they are allowed to express distaste, I am allowed to express interest.

[dendydoom]

Same for TBM, I think his expression of "we were given the tools" as headmins shows deliberation on the fact they were given evidence to something really bad for the community and chose to protect player privacy. That last bit is a thing I have always espoused; you don't make strawmen outta community members.

yes, a lot of difficult situations and curveballs were punted to this term and they dealt with what i'd consider a few "no winning move" scenarios in a way that pleased me.

at the time in public channels i discussed that i didn't think anything personal from these situations (logs etc) should be shared at all, not even with admins, and i'm glad this feeling was shared. i'm not sure what my reaction would've been had this term come out and said they were releasing those things, but it would've not only disappointed me but likely really damaged my trust in our capabilities to handle things like that correctly.

if tanking a few hits to player perception of headmins is the cost to preserve someone's privacy and dignity, then so be it. i 100% think they made the right choice on that.

[Cheshify]

Same for TBM, I think his expression of "we were given the tools" as headmins shows deliberation on the fact they were given evidence to something really bad for the community and chose to protect player privacy. That last bit is a thing I have always espoused; you don't make strawmen outta community members.

yes, a lot of difficult situations and curveballs were punted to this term and they dealt with what i'd consider a few "no winning move" scenarios in a way that pleased me.

at the time in public channels i discussed that i didn't think anything personal from these situations (logs etc) should be shared at all, not even with admins, and i'm glad this feeling was shared. i'm not sure what my reaction would've been had this term come out and said they were releasing those things, but it would've not only disappointed me but likely really damaged my trust in our capabilities to handle things like that correctly.

if tanking a few hits to headmin trust is the cost to preserve someone's privacy and dignity, then so be it. i 100% think they made the right choice on that.

If headminning is anything, it's no-win situations. It's a stupid role with loads of responsibility and nowhere near the amount of power that the name suggests. I only hope that the next term does their best and leads with good faith.

[Higgin]

...

The reality is that depending on what kind of changes you want to see, being an admin can be a negative.

A generally hands-off and anti-admin-intervention platform is almost impossible to push as an admin. Your views tend to be in such a minority they're simply ignored and it's difficult to reference this externally for fear of leaking.

if this wouldn't be better for either of your threads: what does it say for his positions that they ended up being an insurgency from above rather than part of a broader shift in the team and server culture?

it's well and good to be in favor of tiding when it isn't your round getting fucked up by it or you having to sort it out - the same for when it comes to playing a totally negligent head (single slot roles with more inherent power - likely to be the subject of competition) or security officer on MRP (keeping in mind that there isn't just a minimum expectation for security there now but also an expectation for everyone else to defer to security and command to some degree under the roleplay rules - an additional cost felt by non-security even if they want to resolve their issues IC)

if letting this stuff slide more often is* less work and a better overall experience, why was there not uptake on the team during kieth's term, and where did the motivation for this term's changes that kieth is running against come from?

[conrad]

I apologize if I upset anyone by what I posted on Keith's thread, but I just wanted to show my support for the guy. I don't blame the admins for asking questions though or stating their opinion, as we are all allowed to, but just as they are allowed to express distaste, I am allowed to express interest.

I don't think you ruffled any feathers, and any headmin candidate would appreciate that kind of support.

[Nabski]

Keith got permabanned. People being more sceptical now makes complete sense.

What?

Did you miss that whole thing? Tldr: Kieth went to the funeral of a permabanned player and told centcom(more so refering to admins in this context) to kill themselves and to grief in the players memory. It was appealed and lifted this term.

Okay yeah I remember this now. I thought it was a new thing as a result of the community meeting.

[iansdoor]

I apologize if I upset anyone by what I posted on Keith's thread, but I just wanted to show my support for the guy. I don't blame the admins for asking questions though or stating their opinion, as we are all allowed to, but just as they are allowed to express distaste, I am allowed to express interest.

Like Conrad said! I don't think you ruffled anyone's feathers. I would say his platform needs work and his strong selling point is that he isn't an admin and isn't bound to conduct/rules as much. My question to him, was would his intention come from himself alone? If so, that is great news for the community, ain't in any metaclique.
Flipside, to what was said, Kieth headminning is that he will put up the tie when the term is done and drop the bag to the next. I know, he strongly disagrees with GameMasters existence, but he could have done more to keep his feet wet in policies he did with Timbers.

[Lizardistaken]

Look I understand and even partially subscribe to this "dog pilling optic", not because I agree that it's a thing, but because I agree that it looks like it is a thing, but lemme ask you this: how come this is only happening to Kieth? Is it because his first term possibly had more flaws that positive outcomes and therefore is warranted a closer inspection, or do you have so little faith in the admin team that you're ascribing to the "admins vs players" school of thought?

Perhaps dumbass was too harsh, maybe short sighted. But hey man, if you're voting on someone because you like them rather than what they can tangibly do, go for your favourite one. I prefer to do both.

Meanwhile, let staff ask their potential future boss what they want. This "poor Kieth is being dog piled" kinda paints him mid if he can't take it.

i think that a lot of this comes from the fact that kieth's unconventional "for the players" stance can be a bit provocative for certain admins who don't subscribe to these ideas. i do not think it is anything as simple as "players vs admins", however you cannot deny the fact that this divide definitely does exist to some extent. despite this, i personally do not believe that all of the admins on his thread have anything against him, but it becomes obvious that not every person there is posting just to "ask questions" when they start to bring up past controversies which have already been resolved.

it also strikes me the wrong way that you think being dogpiled and having it affect that person "paints him mid". i am fairly certain that most of the current candidates would be pretty disheartened if they were attacked on their own platforms. i mean, would having a perfectly reasonable reaction really make a person mid? besides, from what i can see he seems to be managing it well and replying rather rationally to some otherwise particularly aggressive comments.

admins are not a monolithic entity - we are just a bunch of socially maladjusted weirdos too. but our interests commonly overlap by the nature of our position, and this is likely what you are seeing.

combine this with what timber brought up. a lot of this is conversations being made with heavy inference to previous discussions in kieth's last term, but obviously they cannot just crack that open and talk about the details because it's an admin matter. what we see instead is a lot of talk about "attitudes" and "the way you operate" rather than pointing at a very specific situation with specific context.

and, really, even if we accept that this is angry admins dogpiling the poor player candidate because they're upsetting the secret admin cabal, then it does nothing but good things for the optics of kieth's platform as the player-first player candidate anyway, resulting in more player votes being pushed into his hands.

these are just real concerns from people who happen to be admins, not an attempt to sabotage a candidate. if it was, then this would be the absolute opposite way of how to go about it.

i wasn't trying to imply that i personally believe that every single admin on his thread is trying to attack him, because i don't think that's what is happening either. i was more so saying that it is hard to blame a person for thinking that when they see the way kieth's thread is going and compare it to other threads.

i can't say much on whatever admin matters have been referenced obviously because i am lacking any context whatsoever there, though the most active poster thus far seems rather aggressive in his approach. in this case a very specific and public situation is in fact pointed out, except in a very misleading manner that feels a bit hostile for just being 'simple concerns'. it's also been brought up in this thread a couple times now so i might as well comment on the topic itself, and i say this as someone who has watched everything from basically start to finish; kieth, as well as the great majority of people partaking in the funeral, had absolutely nothing to do with the select few people who decided to sour the whole thing and target an admin.

but on the initial topic, i don't think most of the people in his thread are actively trying to sabotage him either. his thread just stands out from the rest in a lot of ways and i think that helps bring it a lot of attention.

[conrad]

i think that a lot of this comes from the fact that kieth's unconventional "for the players" stance can be a bit provocative for certain admins who don't subscribe to these ideas.

What I saw causing concern to almost everyone on that thread was a "for the tiders" stance moreso than "for the players". I shit you not, there are players that hate being tided. This is why, for example, I asked what I asked about the tiding meme.

i do not think it is anything as simple as "players vs admins", however you cannot deny the fact that this divide definitely does exist to some extent. despite this, i personally do not believe that all of the admins on his thread have anything against him, but it becomes obvious that not every person there is posting just to "ask questions" when they start to bring up past controversies which have already been resolved.

I do sincerely appreciate that this "players vs admins" isn't part of your rationale. It bothers me to no end 'cos admins wouldn't go after someone who's griefing fnr just to put another imaginary pin on their admin trenchcoat, and any of your favourite headmin candidates can attest that if someone is proud of a ban they get an instant group bollocking for being utterly cringe. In the end, every admin is doing this voluntary work for the players, and every headmin is, deep down, a "headmin for the players".

Driving wedges in the community is usually reserved to people that won't last long, or if they do, will go out spetacularly. I can't name an admin that unironically believes this "players vs admins" bullshit, and I wouldn't wanna work if them if I could.

As for incidents previously resolved, think of it as notes. They cast a precedent and if someone saw something on a previous headmin term that they didn't like, they'll want to know if it'll happen again. Check my questions on timber's and tbm's threads and you'll see what I mean.

it also strikes me the wrong way that you think being dogpiled and having it affect that person "paints him mid". i am fairly certain that most of the current candidates would be pretty disheartened if they were attacked on their own platforms. i mean, would having a perfectly reasonable reaction really make a person mid? besides, from what i can see he seems to be managing it well and replying rather rationally to some otherwise particularly aggressive comments.

I guarantee you that being headmin is more stressful than responding to an aggressive campaign thread. Kieth already done this rodeo once, so yeah, he needs to be able to tank it. So does every headmin candidate.

[dendydoom]

i wasn't trying to imply that i personally believe that every single admin on his thread is trying to attack him, because i don't think that's what is happening either. i was more so saying that it is hard to blame a person for thinking that when they see the way kieth's thread is going and compare it to other threads.

i can't say much on whatever admin matters have been referenced obviously because i am lacking any context whatsoever there, though the most active poster thus far seems rather aggressive in his approach. in this case a very specific and public situation is in fact pointed out, except in a very misleading manner that feels a bit hostile for just being 'simple concerns'. it's also been brought up in this thread a couple times now so i might as well comment on the topic itself, and i say this as someone who has watched everything from basically start to finish; kieth, as well as the great majority of people partaking in the funeral, had absolutely nothing to do with the select few people who decided to sour the whole thing and target an admin.

but on the initial topic, i don't think most of the people in his thread are actively trying to sabotage him either. his thread just stands out from the rest in a lot of ways and i think that helps bring it a lot of attention.

thanks for the thoughtful response.

i, speaking only for myself here, don't feel that it's necessary to hold the infamous terry chapel incident against kieth on a personal level. at the time i think it was an incredibly stupid and rude thing to do after having served a term alongside admins who were using admin chatter to talk about their lives and mental health etc pretty regularly. personally i would've banned him too. but after sitting out and then appealing and having that appeal accepted, i consider it a resolved matter. if he says he has learned from the experience and isn't just saying what everyone wants to hear, then i have no reason not to believe him.

i've spoken to him one to one on this matter and what my thoughts are on saying these kinds of things to other people, even in a roleplay sense. the short of it is that i do not like it, and it troubles me to see people use a communal space to spread that sort of message, whoever they may be, and however jokingly they may say it. my recollection of this talk are that he took my concerns seriously, so since then i have not given it much thought because i haven't felt it necessary. i will trust someone until they give me a reason not to any more.

but i don't want to hold others to that standard either. there is something to be said for someone who wants to be headmin being involved in something like that, but what exactly it says is up to individual people. if you don't care, then obviously you don't care. but admins do tend to care about this sort of thing, and with the standards we have for candidates etc, it is not surprising to me to see it become an uncomfortable historical issue with some admins.

me, personally? the only thing that would piss me off beyond any belief is if he went and did it again. or used the headmin position to validate other people doing it. but i have no reason to believe either of these things will happen. my expectations of a headmin are that they know they're a headmin and not just a player any more. first term kieth seemed to understand this assignment, and my hope is that a second term kieth will too. it is a highly visible role with a lot of personal responsibility and access to a lot of otherwise heavily safeguarded information. by that very nature someone in that position is no longer a player and will have to step up instead of trying to play the ignorant terry tider while also managing one of the highest positions in the community that controls the entire admin team. you cannot both have your tide and headmin it too, or whatever.

[WineAllWine]

I think my current top votes are:

1. Timber
2. Rex
Tegun

I'd put money on Timber winning the admin vote though.

[conrad]

I'd topvote Timber too but goddamn Rex and Tattle in the race still give me a lil glint of hope of the über chill Tattle/Rex/Dendi term, and I vibe with TBM too much.

So even though that's not the most effective vote I think I'm still going

1. Tattle
2. Rex
3. TBM
4. Timber

as of now.

[oranges]

I don't think there's any admin dogpiling there's just little to no player engagement in the headadmin threads so the only comments you really see are from admins.

[celularLAmp]

I like timber and Keith

mainly because they're the most down to earth, the more serious you take the game and admining. (more and more policeis more systems and make it more and more paperowrky) the more stupid it is.. this is just some stupid ass game and it's still a weird thing to me that weh ave fucking councils and meetings and shit. It's fun but honestly just weird to me that we have all these theatrics.

[Tegun]

Only Stereo can turn the current "it is what it is" into "LETS FUCKING GOOO"

► Show Spoiler

[Lizardistaken]

What I saw causing concern to almost everyone on that thread was a "for the tiders" stance moreso than "for the players". I shit you not, there are players that hate being tided. This is why, for example, I asked what I asked about the tiding meme.

i think it's presented in a humorous way with the memes and such, but when you look at what the tiding policy is actually saying it in fact makes it a lot easier for people to punish tiding IC because they don't have to worry about getting ahelped over killing some guy disturbing people and breaking into departments. i don't really think this would increase the amount of tiding, and tbh if a person is going to intentionally inconvenience others and break into departments they shouldn't get to complain to admins when they get killed for it.

I do sincerely appreciate that this "players vs admins" isn't part of your rationale. It bothers me to no end 'cos admins wouldn't go after someone who's griefing fnr just to put another imaginary pin on their admin trenchcoat, and any of your favourite headmin candidates can attest that if someone is proud of a ban they get an instant group bollocking for being utterly cringe. In the end, every admin is doing this voluntary work for the players, and every headmin is, deep down, a "headmin for the players".

Driving wedges in the community is usually reserved to people that won't last long, or if they do, will go out spetacularly. I can't name an admin that unironically believes this "players vs admins" bullshit, and I wouldn't wanna work if them if I could.

As for incidents previously resolved, think of it as notes. They cast a precedent and if someone saw something on a previous headmin term that they didn't like, they'll want to know if it'll happen again. Check my questions on timber's and tbm's threads and you'll see what I mean.

whether admin or player, everyone is an individual with their own way of thinking so it would be a bit silly to say all admins hate non-admins or vice versa imo, especially because admins are just supposed to moderate the game to keep it playable. i think this admin vs. players mindset tends to grow in certain people when they feel ostracised/separated from the community, however the average player is honestly a lot less connected to the forums/discord where a lot of discussion takes place compared to that of an admin, so that would definitely cause some differences in the overall ideas on what the game should be like between the two.

I guarantee you that being headmin is more stressful than responding to an aggressive campaign thread. Kieth already done this rodeo once, so yeah, he needs to be able to tank it. So does every headmin candidate.

of course if a person starts breaking down over one or two angry people they are likely not going to make it to headmin in the first place... i was more so saying that it'd be natural for someone to feel a little discouraged by it. this topic doesn't seem to be relevant to kieth anyway tbh, from what can i see he's doing perfectly fine. i would also imagine that he is more than used to this kind of stuff after having been a headmin once

thanks for the thoughtful response.

i, speaking only for myself here, don't feel that it's necessary to hold the infamous terry chapel incident against kieth on a personal level. at the time i think it was an incredibly stupid and rude thing to do after having served a term alongside admins who were using admin chatter to talk about their lives and mental health etc pretty regularly. personally i would've banned him too. but after sitting out and then appealing and having that appeal accepted, i consider it a resolved matter. if he says he has learned from the experience and isn't just saying what everyone wants to hear, then i have no reason not to believe him.

i've spoken to him one to one on this matter and what my thoughts are on saying these kinds of things to other people, even in a roleplay sense. the short of it is that i do not like it, and it troubles me to see people use a communal space to spread that sort of message, whoever they may be, and however jokingly they may say it. my recollection of this talk are that he took my concerns seriously, so since then i have not given it much thought because i haven't felt it necessary. i will trust someone until they give me a reason not to any more.

but i don't want to hold others to that standard either. there is something to be said for someone who wants to be headmin being involved in something like that, but what exactly it says is up to individual people. if you don't care, then obviously you don't care. but admins do tend to care about this sort of thing, and with the standards we have for candidates etc, it is not surprising to me to see it become an uncomfortable historical issue with some admins.

me, personally? the only thing that would piss me off beyond any belief is if he went and did it again. or used the headmin position to validate other people doing it. but i have no reason to believe either of these things will happen. my expectations of a headmin are that they know they're a headmin and not just a player any more. first term kieth seemed to understand this assignment, and my hope is that a second term kieth will too. it is a highly visible role with a lot of personal responsibility and access to a lot of otherwise heavily safeguarded information. by that very nature someone in that position is no longer a player and will have to step up instead of trying to play the ignorant terry tider while also managing one of the highest positions in the community that controls the entire admin team. you cannot both have your tide and headmin it too, or whatever.

in a game like this there are definitely moments where it is very easy to get carried away and do some dumb crap, but i think it's wrong of the person to specifically say that kieth "told an admin to kill themselves" when that was neither his intention nor what he actually did. the situation has a whole resolved appeal to read and tell them what happened, and yet they still decide to word it in such a misleading way that paints kieth in a inaccurately bad light to anyone who doesn't know the details of the situation. i perfectly understand the concerns anyone would have about it even if his appeal was resolved, but in this specific case the way it is done just seems rather aggressive.

[dendydoom]

in a game like this there are definitely moments where it is very easy to get carried away and do some dumb crap, but i think it's wrong of the person to specifically say that kieth "told an admin to kill themselves" when that was neither his intention nor what he actually did. the situation has a whole resolved appeal to read and tell them what happened, and yet they still decide to word it in such a misleading way that paints kieth in a inaccurately bad light to anyone who doesn't know the details of the situation. i perfectly understand the concerns anyone would have about it even if his appeal was resolved, but in this specific case the way it is done just seems rather aggressive.

certainly you can criticize the accuracy of how it's depicted in the candidate thread, and kieth was by far not the worst person involved. very far from it. but personally i feel like this is ultimately splitting hairs.

i will not infantilize kieth by pretending that he didn't know the context of the funeral, who it was for, why they were in trouble, and what it was about. he was involved, and that is important to a lot of admins because they expect a headmin who will know better than to get involved in these situations.

being involved in a situation like that would most likely have you stricken from any trainer's serious considerations for a candidate for quite a long time. and this is for the position of headmin, not an admin candidate who can barely be trusted to view people's notes without supervision.

ultimately admins get the admin vote, and kieth is a player candidate. i know he doesn't care if admins vote for him or not. but in the end, if he gets the position, he will have to work with those same admins who have criticisms of his conduct and demeanour. he will either have to answer that publicly now or, if he gets what he wants and wins the player vote, he will have to answer it privately in admin channels, because they will want answers and assurances if they're expected to fall in line and follow his instructions through a second term.

[conrad]

ngl Kieth saying that if you don't want tiding go play on MRP is vomitous. Silver lining that at least it's not gonna be a problem there?

Handover activity checks and deadminning are also routine, and it was not what I asked about. There's no credit to be claimed there.

I was hoping for more. At least he responded to what I said with his honest thoughts.

I think if he gets elected he's gonna have a difficult time getting admins to do what he wants.

[Timberpoes]

I'd like to say that our term was too busy to actively activity deadmin.

Our charter had activity deadmins by 2-headmin majority instead of unanimous. I coded a tool that pulls the Scrubby charts for everyone on the admin team, sent 'em to the headmin channels and told Kieth to tell me who he wanted on his deadmin list for activity. This happened a few times as the term went on.

Unfortunately there was a ton of weird internal affairs stuff of the "God I don't think I have the capacity to deadmin people right now" type, so it took until the end of the term to really get an inactivity sweep into gear and then handover crawled up our ass and the next term inherited the task.

I don't think Kieth realised we could remove truly inactive GMs. He suggested one in his demotion list and then pulled their name back out when he realised they were a GM.

[conrad]

Kinneb's short and sweet answers. I like plan B's and fallbacks, even if that's just stuff we already have being brought forward as an alternative.