A funeral for Birdshot

[warbluke]

You people are animals! Animals! You make me sick!
And by that I mean you should have all whined about icebox instead until it got removed because that's the one I personally dislike.

[NecromancerAnne]

I'll miss birdshot, it had some cool stuff going on with how vast some sections of the station were. I think there is something neat in big underdeveloped stationa areas. But I'm enjoying wawa more for a more rundown feeling station. The tunnels are so, so fun to crawl through, and I really adore the hidden overhangs that you can stare down into and see people/spring onto from above.

[TheSmallBlue]

[zxaber]

You were not as bad as people said, you were not as good as you could have been.

Rip Birdshot, killed by our lack of a minimap.

[britgrenadier1]

Too big to be a lowpop map, awful foot traffic concentrated around the bar/brig. Recessed medbay that no one can see into and med docs couldnt see into the lobby easily. Multiple iterations of the map had meme haha engineering setups with reversed filters so new engineers would delam the engine. The bar and kitchen were on opposite sides from one another, meaning you couldnt talk with people getting food/getting drinks depending on where you were. Bird had fundamental flaws, if it does get remade then idk how they're gonna address some of that stuff without completely overhauling it. At the point you might as well make a new map

[nianjiilical]

[Vekter]

I don't feel strongly about Birdshot itself - it's okay, I don't agree with a lot of the criticism surrounding it (or at least don't think it's dramatic enough to warrant all the hate it gets), but I understand it being unpopular so I'm fine with its removal. I would like to see either the return of Kilo or maybe Wawa (I don't like Jimmy but it's a solid map), but I'm sure whatever we replace it with will be met with an incredible amount of vitriol, probably because a wire is exposed somewhere or something.

[MooCow12]

It wasnt a low pop map it was a higher difficulty for everyone map, maint had mobs with guns that kill you quickly, reduced materials for the station to work with at round start which makes fighting nukies harder, ai sat was horribly positioned for ai to defend themselves, medbay and large stretches of the hallway were incredibly easy to breach

Edit: Genetics doesnt even get a front desk its tucked away hidden in sci
Edit:#2 The bridge itself was near the exterior of the station which outside the context of ss13 makes sense but on most maps the bridge is command's best place to fortify and defend but on this map its open to space which is an angle 90%
of the players cant help defend so command dont get help from the avg crew member when someone attacks from that direction.
Edit:#3 The gorilla cube incident lul



Any of these things in a vacuum is fine but together they make a high difficulty event map that you play on and expect shuttle to be called before you can finish even half of the job content youre expected to be able to do for the avg round.

Edit: (Although i expect round times on birdshot to be very inflated since its normally lowpop)

[TheLoLSwat]

[Constellado]

Uh oh does this mean more icebox (which is not a low pop map) during low pop hours? Which means walking long distances without seeing faces.

Because all we got is meta and icebox now.

We need a replacement small map!!

[Timonk]

Uh oh does this mean more icebox (which is not a low pop map) during low pop hours? Which means walking long distances without seeing faces.

Because all we got is meta and icebox now.

We need a replacement small map!!

as long as it isnt more run down than yo mama i am fine with a small map
seriously, it looked like a station that i would shuttle call on because it was destroyed beyond recognition, and thats just when the crew arrived. after 20 minutes it would look even worse (somehow)

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

Unironically, touch up sokoban a bit and add it to the lowpop rotation (<20 players)

[Timonk]

Sokoban is literally just departments stacked on top of each other, nothing more than a gimmick

[Jacquerel]

I expect to see 80 player rounds on sybil within a week

[PapaMichael]

it wasn't my favorite but i am sad to see it go
it was already so rare after the config change to make it only appear below 45 pop anyway

[dendydoom]

I expect to see 80 player rounds on sybil within a week

if not then we're replacing the entire rotation with birdshot 2 (it's the same except engineering is even more cramped)

my defence for birdshot was out of a desire to support the project and the work that goes into mapping, as well as the wishes of maptainers. it would be an absolute shame to throw out a map that has potential before it's realized, and it would harm the relations between admins and maints to make uninformed decisions or demands about maps.

the birdshot experiment is over. thank you for participating. i hope if anything this feeds back into more maps being made and experimented with.

[Timonk]

the birdshot experiment is over. thank you for participating. i hope if anything this feeds back into more maps being made and experimented with.

i am looking forward to the return of the king (birdboat)
birdboat was so bad that it was funny
birdshot is just bad with nothing funny about it

[Timonk]

i dont think you can tell that i played birdboat only once or twice

[mrmelbert]

We need a replacement small map!!

It is very unlikely a designated low pop map will ever be added again, the maintainability cost is too high to have a map dedicated to a population bracket we ostensibly don't design for

The best you get is having one of the refurbished maps on the map depot being thrown on the server on occasion (Omega, Kilo, Pubby, Sokoban)

[Indie-ana Jones]

I wouldn't count it out too soon. Seems EOB wants it back on rotation ASAP.

If I were them, I would keep it off rotation, give it a tram growing pains pr tier update and then put it back up and get feedback on. I don't see the point in continuing to keep this map in play when the vast majority of players want nothing to do with it in its current state, especially with nothing notable coming soon.

Furthermore, maybe player feedback needs to be further taken into account. Birdshot Engineering did receive a rework and I haven't heard anyone say good things about it (quite the opposite, really), which makes me concerned that future department reworks might be missing the issues players are having.

Perhaps they should ask Mc-oofert for some pointers, seeing as reception to Wawastation has been mostly positive.

[PKPenguin321]

was this the one with the super duper fucking huge maint
first round on it i went into maint and got lost and no joke did not have any human contact for the first fifteen minutes of the round despite my best efforts

[TheRex9001]

I honestly thought Oranges would leave this one to the maptainer team

[Indie-ana Jones]

I'm very glad Oranges went through the effort to get this ball rolling. A lot of the valid criticism about the map's design seems to have fallen on deaf ears (there's a very nice forum thread where people list their issues from not too long ago, would be a great resource to get started with improvements). I don't see any reason why the map in its current state needs to be forced onto the players when its already be critiqued to death. They asked for players to give feedback on what needs to be improved, and the players held to their end of the bargain in this regard. Forcing the map onto them without changes isn't going to yield any new insight, its been basically a year now and everything that could be said has been said.

Also, I'm pretty sure the main issue people have is the layout of the map, not the fact its "run-down". Not sure why they don't mention the layout over the "run-down" part.

[BonChoi]

The players don't know what's good for them, obviously.

[TheSmallBlue]

it would be an absolute shame to throw out a map that has potential before it's realized, and it would harm the relations between admins and maints to make uninformed decisions or demands about maps.

idk if this is a hot take but if a map leaves a lot to be desired, to the point in which the people supporting it say stuff like "it had potential! it just never realized it", then maaaybe it shouldn't be put into rotation until said potential is realized?
at the end of the day you end up with a map that most people dont like as is, but you decide to keep in the game anyways because it COULD be better!

[Indie-ana Jones]

idk if this is a hot take but if a map leaves a lot to be desired, to the point in which the people supporting it say stuff like "it had potential! it just never realized it", then maaaybe it shouldn't be put into rotation until said potential is realized?
at the end of the day you end up with a map that most people dont like as is, but you decide to keep in the game anyways because it COULD be better!

Yeah, this pretty sums up by thoughts on how handling this should go about. If the map isn't deemed satisfactory, once the feedback has been harvested (which it has), take it off the rotation and then fix it before putting it back in. This is essentially the same principle testmerges follow, where code is temporarily added to the game to gauge functionality and get player feedback, where it is then removed from testmerge, revised, and then either testmerged again or merged.

[DrAmazing343]

I mean another way to look at it is "This map is an interesting concept, and by putting it in the rotation, we encourage development!" Which at least surface-lever seems to be about what it was like for Tram. I'm talking out my ass so disregard if you know the history, but early Tram was ROUGH, and by putting it in rotation, it's encouraged significant revamp effort from the community because it IS a really cool idea

[Indie-ana Jones]

I mean another way to look at it is "This map is an interesting concept, and by putting it in the rotation, we encourage development!" Which at least surface-lever seems to be about what it was like for Tram. I'm talking out my ass so disregard if you know the history, but early Tram was ROUGH, and by putting it in rotation, it's encouraged significant revamp effort from the community because it IS a really cool idea

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Tram got a massive revamp from only Mmmiracles, the guy who made it in the first place. Nobody else really touched it during that time either, and players hated the map and rightfully so. From my recollection, Tram was a troll map specifically meant to be annoying in a negative manner, forcing players to use the very shitty and slow tram in order to frustrate them and bait them into getting hit by the Tram for spectator pleasure. Tram's rework was massive and changed a huge amount of the map in order to make the gimmick not suck massive nads, which is what I'd say Birdshot needs if not moreso.

[DrAmazing343]

I'm fucking rolling that type of story is 100% why I put the disclaimer on not knowing history that's wild

[Constellado]

I don't like tram.

I like birdshot it had charm!

I also was a person that put in a PR for birdshot! My first pr! It was to improve Atmos and I was just about to go and start doing another one when this happened.

Man, atleast my PR went to use for a few weeks atleast.

[Agux909]

o7

But I won't miss it. Good bye.

[TheRex9001]

Im glad oranges is handling this in such a graceful way to reassure mappers that they should do anything for tg.

[Vekter]

I don't like tram.

Why not

[DaBoss]

It achieved its goal of being unfun and shit but sadly that didnt convince the playerbase that being unfun and shit were good things. Every time some troublemaker lured the russian mobs into the main halls to kill 10 people it was actually post-ironic and very artful. Cargo having a million extra doors to waste your time was social commentary I think. The rightmost third of the station no one ever went to was an example of the arte povera movement.

[britgrenadier1]

Tram would be fine if the game didn’t lag and slowdown and speed up the tram at random. Sometimes it’s faster to tram and other times it’s faster to walk.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/83528
Also, I appreciate the amount of work that goes into mapping, but bird is fundamentally flawed in ways that a simple dorms and department rework probably won’t fix. At that point you might as well make a new map.

[oranges]

award for most premature funeral ever held.

[Constellado]

I don't like tram.

Why not

A few things.
One, the departments are all super seperated, so departments that are not visited often get visited even less often.
For example, the library or chapel. Nobody goes to those. Being a curator feels like you are in a separate station all together.

The SM room has two APCs. One for the SM, and one for the room itself. If the SM one breaks due to the wall being destroyed due to a bomb or the blob, you have to go rebuild the APC inside the chamber. this is not intuitive. You cannot put the APC back where it was without the game saying there is already an APC there.

If there is a breach to the main tram areas?

You are fucked. You cannot fix that air in a reasonable time there is just too much air to fix. Yes it is harder to breach but it happens quite often and a ninja just hacking a door open outside and then hacking a maints door to the tram areas can and has done it. It is a PAIN to find the breach as well.

[Vekter]

A few things.
One, the departments are all super seperated, so departments that are not visited often get visited even less often.
For example, the library or chapel. Nobody goes to those. Being a curator feels like you are in a separate station all together.

The SM room has two APCs. One for the SM, and one for the room itself. If the SM one breaks due to the wall being destroyed due to a bomb or the blob, you have to go rebuild the APC inside the chamber. this is not intuitive. You cannot put the APC back where it was without the game saying there is already an APC there.

If there is a breach to the main tram areas?

You are fucked. You cannot fix that air in a reasonable time there is just too much air to fix. Yes it is harder to breach but it happens quite often and a ninja just hacking a door open outside and then hacking a maints door to the tram areas can and has done it. It is a PAIN to find the breach as well.

Those are fair criticisms, though 1) I wonder if anyone would care if I just removed/relocated that APC so it's not in a shitty place and 2) the problem with fixing that air is that fixing air at all in this game is kind of a fucking nightmare in most situations

[iansdoor]

A few things.
One, the departments are all super seperated, so departments that are not visited often get visited even less often.
For example, the library or chapel. Nobody goes to those. Being a curator feels like you are in a separate station all together.

The SM room has two APCs. One for the SM, and one for the room itself. If the SM one breaks due to the wall being destroyed due to a bomb or the blob, you have to go rebuild the APC inside the chamber. this is not intuitive. You cannot put the APC back where it was without the game saying there is already an APC there.

If there is a breach to the main tram areas?

You are fucked. You cannot fix that air in a reasonable time there is just too much air to fix. Yes it is harder to breach but it happens quite often and a ninja just hacking a door open outside and then hacking a maints door to the tram areas can and has done it. It is a PAIN to find the breach as well.

Those are fair criticisms, though 1) I wonder if anyone would care if I just removed/relocated that APC so it's not in a shitty place and 2) the problem with fixing that air is that fixing air at all in this game is kind of a fucking nightmare in most situations

Woah woah. Are you suggesting work arounds?

There is one single line of power that loops around to power medbay and that is usually eaten by a goddam mouse.

If I was to suggest any small big change, I would add 3 wires to link the hallway from medbay lobby hallway to arrivals hallway, bypassing that maints that always gets nibbled.

[Justice12354]

I hope this funeral doesn't turn out like the Terry funeral

[iansdoor]

I hope this funeral doesn't turn out like the Terry funeral

It may happen with you as the ascended cult leader.

[Constellado]

A few things.
One, the departments are all super seperated, so departments that are not visited often get visited even less often.
For example, the library or chapel. Nobody goes to those. Being a curator feels like you are in a separate station all together.

The SM room has two APCs. One for the SM, and one for the room itself. If the SM one breaks due to the wall being destroyed due to a bomb or the blob, you have to go rebuild the APC inside the chamber. this is not intuitive. You cannot put the APC back where it was without the game saying there is already an APC there.

If there is a breach to the main tram areas?

You are fucked. You cannot fix that air in a reasonable time there is just too much air to fix. Yes it is harder to breach but it happens quite often and a ninja just hacking a door open outside and then hacking a maints door to the tram areas can and has done it. It is a PAIN to find the breach as well.

Those are fair criticisms, though 1) I wonder if anyone would care if I just removed/relocated that APC so it's not in a shitty place and 2) the problem with fixing that air is that fixing air at all in this game is kind of a fucking nightmare in most situations

Fixing air is usually NOT a nightmare!

It's actually quite fun.
You fix the hole, and drag a heater around from the outside in, letting the air equalise through doors.

I find it relaxing, seeing the firelocks dissapear next to the heater as I drag it around.

[Vekter]

It's actually quite fun.
You fix the hole, and drag a heater around from the outside in, letting the air equalise through doors.

I find it relaxing, seeing the firelocks dissapear next to the heater as I drag it around.

I have never been able to get that to work, so maybe you're just built different than me.

[winterseasalt]

gonna be honest i am of the crowd that is perfectly fine with birdshot's removal, it feels hellish to play on and i have never enjoyed it
but there are some things i liked about it!! mostly the bar+diner area and the prison tram thing...

[Bepis]

I think they did an excellent job on the station, but I hated playing on it with a passion. It was an observe only kinda feel for me. The way it was removed was either thoughtless or cunty (or both), hopefully the affected mappers stick around and continue contribution.

[Constellado]

I am sad that my first ever PR is now gone but.

I will do more map PRs when I see stuff that needs fixing on future merged maps.

Maybe, I only touched birdshot because the improvements was so obvious to me.

[warbluke]

It's back.

[Jackraxxus]

[Timonk]

[TheFinalPotato]

skill difference tbh