Ban Request: CJ AJ: Lizard murder

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:42 pm #95007

Your byond account: Bgobandit
Your character name: Raises-the-Fortune
Their character name: CJ AJ
Their byond account(optional, but useful if you can provide it):
Server and time: Sibyl, 8:30 AM Eastern
Logs and/or screenshots: The round was long so I do not have attack logs, but I do have antag logs, note who is not on it:

Spoiler:

Description of what happened: I'm a lizard. I decide to try out the wagging-tail emote. CJ AJ punches me. He does this repeatedly until I am in orange health and bleeding. He laughs at me, and I go to the medbay to heal the bleeding. Zol Interbottom -- an antag -- is there, trying to get the AI to let him into the medbay. The AI isn't listening to him. Because I am a lizard I see an opportunity to help him, so I table him, grab him, and tell the AI that if it doesn't open the door I'll kill him. The AI finally complies, because it has to. Meanwhile Zol screams that I am harming him, which I am not. CJ AJ shows up around this time and he joins Zol in murdering me.

I adminhelp and am told it is valid. When the round-end report comes and I see CJ AJ is not an antag, I am treated to this steaming pile of bullshit reasoning:

Spoiler:

Why they should be banned: Because they were a deliberate graytiding dick, which breaks rule 1 in about a million different fucking places, not to mention the part where I was murdered by a non-antag. An antag "egging you on" (nothing of the sort happened, and he was attacking me previously) does not give you the right to murder someone. It's very rare that I'm actually floored by an admin decision but this might be the worst reasoning I have ever seen.

CandyClown · Post by **CandyClown** » Thu Jun 11, 2015 2:16 pm #95011

I can attest to CJ's shit that round. He stole a Durand and opened fire on a sec officer. But regarding your ban request, if you threaten the AI, you pretty much are open to being valid. Especially a lizard.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Thu Jun 11, 2015 3:01 pm #95020

>Grab Zol in a neck-grab, Zol yells for help
>CJ comes in, punches Raised, Zol escapes
>Zol starts attacking Raised, CJ follows suit

Zol, being the traitor he was, turned on you and started to attack you. Even if CJ was attacking you earlier without reason, what CJ sees when he comes into medbay is someone being neckgrabbed and so he joins in to kill the aggressor. Even then, Zol's the one that finishes you off, Zol doesn't just step back and let CJ kill you, Zol has a very active part throughout the whole thing.

Spoiler:

The yelling part was while you were outside of medbay holding Zol in a neckgrab. When people shout that kind of thing, and someone else comes to check on that person and sees what happened, you expect valids to occur. Yes you managed to type out an explanation that was midway between Zol being released and CJ going after you- but we normally don't expect players to pause and listen to an explanation after seeing the person giving the explanation just get forced out from a neckgrab.

You also may have good intentions in trying to force the AI to open up medbay but you never even explained to Zol or anyone else at the start. People will assume the worst sometimes in SS13 and this will sometimes lead to quick valids.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Thu Jun 11, 2015 3:28 pm #95023

Three points:

1. Neckgrabs are not harmful. Actually strangling someone is, but that requires an extra step, and displays several messages as well as the guy gasping and being unable to talk. CJ AJ is not new, and knows this;

2. The AI hostage gambit is well known. It does not make a person valid, otherwise the entire point would be lost. Again, CJ AJ is not new, and knows this.

3. The "majority of the damage" point is not in the rules, never has been in the rules, and makes no logical sense. Imagine a traitor eswording someone to death. Just because the e-sword does most of the damage, does not mean that every random non-antag assistant can grab a toolbox and join in. And on top of that, I'd already been attacked to orange health by CJ AJ before, it was not a spontaneous egged-on reaction. I wasn't around for the Durand thing (being fucking murdered by a non-antag and all) but it does not speak well to his intentions either.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Thu Jun 11, 2015 3:39 pm #95027

Players are not expected to calmly and rationally assess the situation without any sort of bias, nor look for cues on whether anyone is gasping or not while someone is being neckgrabbed in a split second decision when someone has yelled that they are being choked, nor are they expected to be mindreaders capable of divining your intention or analytical geniuses capable of figuring out that you had no harmful intention beyond tricking the AI into opening the door.

Your example isn't relevant, because we're not talking about Zol attacking you with an e-sword and an assistant joining in. You had Zol in a neckgrab and he yelled for help. CJ responded. It was about as spontaneous as things can get.

Sabbat · Post by **Sabbat** » Thu Jun 11, 2015 6:09 pm #95059

CJ AJ actively assaults lizards, he plays security to do so. I don't know about this exact situation but I do know he does this every single round I've ever seen him in. He arrested a lizard just for being a lizard either yesterday/day before and then punched him until he bled into crit in the brig.

Just saying but this isn't an isolated incident of lizard racism/assault against players just for being lizards.

Hasn't "You're not allowed to 'roleplay' as a murderer/racist/etc" always been a thing?

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:28 pm #95077

This should be resolved but I'll leave it up for a day anyway.

Sabbat, I'll look into the logs tomorrow. That being said, if you're bringing up examples, more detail or at least a name/string of radio chatter I can use to pinpoint it down would be appreciated.

Sabbat · Post by **Sabbat** » Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:41 pm #95081

I really wish I could remember the lizard's name, but it was a weird one-word name like "Djee" something. Aranclanos was an antag in the round, Dana or whatever his character's name is, I remember because our HoS murdered him in perma so I had cloned him and let him go on the escape pod.

Best I can do, name wise for the round. It was in the last few days though. But honestly, most rounds CJ AJ is in I'm sure you can find examples of it. This is just the latest one I know was unprovoked and watched happen. I got to the brig just in time for the lizard to ask me for help.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:32 pm #95128

imblyings wrote:This should be resolved but I'll leave it up for a day anyway.

No it bloody well isn't resolved. I'd like the opinion of an admin not involved in the original decision and its non-logic.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:15 am #95156

Another admin and headmin already looked into this. If you cannot understand why further action is unlikely to occur for the situation referred to in this thread, there is very little I or anyone else can do unless you convene not one but all three headmins to this thread.

Arete · Post by **Arete** » Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:36 am #95160

imblyings wrote:Another admin and headmin already looked into this. If you cannot understand why further action is unlikely to occur for the situation referred to in this thread, there is very little I or anyone else can do unless you convene not one but all three headmins to this thread.

For the sake of precedent, the admins who give the secondary opinions on these situations should probably at the very least be named.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:49 am #95163

You're right, I absolutely cannot fucking fathom how it is within the rules for an assistant to attack people for literally no reason besides being a lizard, then jump at the chance to help someone else murder them, again for absolutely no reason.

Jacough · Post by **Jacough** » Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:07 am #95167

imblyings wrote:This should be resolved but I'll leave it up for a day anyway.

Sabbat, I'll look into the logs tomorrow. That being said, if you're bringing up examples, more detail or at least a name/string of radio chatter I can use to pinpoint it down would be appreciated.

Yeah, no. You've got a player who insisted a fight that nearly got another player killed for absolutely no reason. Regardless of later interactions, you've got a player here who just wanted to grief and you've got several other players here who also testified that the guy regularly pulls shit like this. What makes you think this is acceptable behavior

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:22 am #95168

>it is within the rules for an assistant to attack people for literally no reason besides being a lizard, then jump at the chance to help someone else murder them, again for absolutely no reason.

The ban request deals primarily with the latter issue, the former issue being something ongoing but likely to be resolved outside this thread and in communication with the player when I next see them ingame. The latter issue has been amply explained as to why CJ's actions were understandable.

>What makes you think this is acceptable behavior

One other player, not several, unless you are withholding logs or knowledge about more related incidents from your first post in this thread. Even then, CJ is still being looked into for his prior history not noted or adminhelped because Sabbat was the only other player so far to chime in. I'm already looking into his conduct elsewhere and if you read the thread carefully, no where in this thread have I commented on his behaviour outside of this incident.

>Arete

Skorvold presumably looked into it judging by irc convo and Sticky looked into it as well, although he advised me to follow up on CJ's behaviour elsewhere.

Tsaricide · Post by **Tsaricide** » Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:30 am #95171

Two questions, did BGO fight back at all? Was zol injured at all when cj ran up?

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:39 am #95172

Tsaricide wrote:Was zol injured at all when cj ran up?

Just noting:
If he was injured by bandit, it would not be visible to CJ as choking does oxyloss

Tsaricide · Post by **Tsaricide** » Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:41 am #95173

I meant any physical damage or was zol gasping?

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:47 am #95176

neither

Tsaricide · Post by **Tsaricide** » Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:50 am #95178

So how is this anything but CJ looking for any excuse to punch the shit out of BGO when he's already shown he did it for no good reason moments before?

Post by **oranges** » Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:10 am #95180

I think we should expect players to at least evaluate a situation before jumping in and beating someone to death just because someone else is already doing it.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:20 am #95184

A lack of physical damage/gasping means little, players aren't expected to stop and compulsorily shift-click before they engage in valids after hearing a cry for help.

Raised for whatever reason and through poor luck, decided to neckgrab Zol without explaining their intention, and Zol decided to lie about being killed. This usually is reason enough for anyone to jump in and fight the aggressor, and you're not a stranger to the phenomenon of players joining in with attacking a possible valid. Was it a quick valid-seeking? Yes, I acknowledged as much above.

CJ might have a problem with lizard players or even Bandit in general. This however, isn't in his notes and it didn't come up until Sabbat brought the issue up. It's being looked into, unless you want to help with that.

Tsaricide · Post by **Tsaricide** » Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:32 am #95185

When you walk up and see a person lying down on the same tile as bgo gasping for air then it's obvious he is in trouble, if you see him just standing there not gasping and you can easily pull him away from bgo then it's different. I wasn't there so I don't know exactly how it looked which is why I'm asking.

This situation taken alone doesn't seem like that big of a deal but if you take into account CJ beating BGO for just wagging his tail in the bar then adding them together it seems clear CJ joined in to beat BGO simply because he was being a shithead and found an excuse to do it.

You have to look at both situations together since they happened so close together.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:44 am #95187

Zol was prone, if he was standing or looked like he wasn't really in trouble, then the outcome would have been different.

What's being done right now is trying to determine whether CJ has a history of misconduct because even taken together, the eventual excuse CJ had to join in with beating Raised was sufficient enough. If there is history that I don't know about or isn't in his notes but should have been, then what happened in this round will be interpreted differently and possible further actions taken.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:42 am #95208

Tsaricide wrote:Two questions, did BGO fight back at all?

I don't think so, I was mostly like "fuck off" and then when I started bleeding I went straight to the medbay.

Was zol injured at all when cj ran up?

No. Or, rather, if he was, it wasn't from me.

callanrockslol · Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:20 pm

I wasn't injured, I was trying to get in so I could hide out in the virology airlock and waste the virologist, I knew that I wasn't in danger (I did try to table him first any) but I just wanted to fuck around a bit since I hadn't been a traitor in a while.

CJ was very happy to jump in and wreck a lizard, although we did try to save you (we fucked up with cryo after I straitjacketed and muzzled you) and he didn't seem interested in eating you when I suggested gibbing, so I left his corpse with you and he did whatever. Although I think later you did get gibbed.

Not-Dorsidarf · Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:32 pm

imblyings wrote: players aren't expected to stop and compulsorily shift-click before they engage in valids after hearing a cry for help.

Why are players not expected to evaluate a situation before murdering another player for having a fight?
Not stopping before ctrl-clicking the guy and pulling him two tiles away, sure.
Not stopping before murdering someone and saying "THE OTHER GUY WAS AN ANTAG HE BRAAAAAINWASHED ME INTO MURDERING THE GUY I TRIED TO KILL EARLIER"?

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:02 pm #95326

>Why are players not expected to evaluate a situation before murdering another player for having a fight?

Because the situation referred to in the thread wasn't a generic fight, nor do fights usually involve a traitor lying.

Everything else that needs to be said has been said unless there are logs or a string I can use to pinpoint down further logs relating to anything involving CJ and lizards/Bandit before this happened.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:10 pm #95330

It's not hard to find these logs. Literally if you just look for him punching me, and then all his surrounding attitude, you will find them.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:09 pm #95355

I'm referring to what Sabbat mentioned. Like I have said, it's a search into his history to determine if he's had issues before with attacking lizards for no reason. There's a weeks worth if not more of logs I need to look through as well as talking to him in game when I next see him.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Sat Jun 13, 2015 2:32 am #95439

At least four people in this thread have corroborated my story, including the antag. What other proof could you possibly need? In what fucking universe can someone murder someone as non-antag literally just for being a lizard, with no prompting and no escalation, can have several people attest that this is a pattern of behavior for him, and then have the administration say "LOL VALID FUCK YOU"?

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Sat Jun 13, 2015 6:29 am #95468

Read the thread again.

In short, you got dicked over by a lying traitor and a person looking for easy valids. The person is now being looked into in case the easy valid and attack beforehand is part of a larger problem where he attacks lizards for no reason because one other person was able to bring something actionable to this thread.

If someone else can bring up logs or a time and date of misconduct by CJ, message me, otherwise nothing actionable is likely to be posted until I finish looking over the logs.

/tg/Station 13

Ban Request: CJ AJ: Lizard murder

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