Releasing N2O as an Asimov Silicon

[ohnopigeons]

For those special moments when the entire crew is harm and you want to cry digital tears for all the harm you were unable and will be unable to prevent.

Examples include:

• Lopsided Revolution with the dominant side having more or less taken over the station and devoting themselves to harming everyone left on the other side (usually the revs)
• Wizard round where all the crew has guns/magic and for some reason or another they are all killing and harming

The gist being that most of crew is harmful and it is impossible for the AI to differentiate the nonharmfuls from the rest of the harmful crew, while there being little risk or harm in assuming the entirety of the crew is harmful in some way.

I believe it is perfectly consistent, acceptable, and proper roleplay for an AI or borg to release N2O under these stressful conditions. N2O itself is harmless and is only suffocating if the O2 concentration in the air is not high enough. Ineffective as N2O may be, being highly visible and easily countered by internals and assisting crewmembers, it would at the very least impede harm in these conditions, which is at least something when the AI has very little options.

Releasing N2O in the entirety of the station would be overkill and in very bad form, but releasing it in a few key areas like escape or certain hallways as means to prevent harm should definitely be fine.

...which is what I thought, but according to some admins releasing N2O as default Asimov is a blanket Rule 1 violation, which I honestly did not expect at all, given the deadchat conversation I discussed this idea in and the complete lack of care by OOC when asked. I still don't really get or understand the Rule 1 argument against this, so I'll let them and whoever else agrees with them to explain the intricacies of that argument.

What are your thoughts?

[Tsaricide]

Sounds like a great way to get your borgs blown and get you lynched.

[ohnopigeons]

Sounds like a great way to get your borgs blown and get you lynched.

So it's an IC issue then?

[lumipharon]

N2O itself isn't harmful, so I don't see it as an issue, in cases where the crew is tearing itself apart (mainly rev, maybe gang or cult).

If there'e just a few people fighting and you're trying to gas them, that's pretty shitty, but would probably just get resolved IC (with lynching) unless you're really terrible/abuse it a lot.

[imblyings]

It'll affect the few who forget or don't know how to use internals. Not many of that demographic are capable of being competent enough to cause the sort of harm an asimov AI might be worried about. If a station is nearly overrun by rev or cult and there are still humans that could be harmed, say sec survivors, the usually more smarter and less collateral damage option would be to discretely evacuate them to the gulag or mining. You run the risk of some unlucky non-antag being put to sleep and being ignored by everyone else as well, if you flood n2o.

I don't have much of an objection to it, it's just that it's a really ineffective idea and one bordering on warn-able incompetency.

[invisty]

N2O is one of the more entertaining game mechanics, being an area denial tool and all. It'd be nice to see it have more applications than the valid/banned binary that it currently is.

[callanrockslol]

Lets check:
Is it harmful?
No.
Release the N20.

[Incomptinence]

Mix it with oxygen to make sure it stays breathable if you are worried.

[ohnopigeons]

To clarify, when I meant Rule 1, I don't mean the Asimov law, I mean the server's rule #1:

1. We're all here to have a good time. If you're intentionally trying to ruin everyone else's good time, you won't have a place here. Being a jerk in-character is fine to a point, but being a jerk out of character is not welcome at all.
IE: Don't be a dick

Should N2O releasing be disallowed under this rule? Is this something you don't want to see happening in your SS13 rounds?

[Malkevin]

Everyone starts off with a box of internals, if they're too dumb to wear them when the AI starts flooding gasses its their fault.

[Akkryls]

In all seriousness, can we have a headmin weigh in on this and whether it's a step too far or not?
I've considered it many times when shit got out of control, but now days I expect to be banned for doing something like this.

[duncathan]

As long as the concentration is low enough, it's a perfectly logical conclusion to draw from law 1 - the issue is whether it's against server policy. Personally, I think it should be fine. Rev rounds were brought up, and I think that, especially in that case, using N2O to help prevent harm in critical areas doesn't seem like being a dick. In a rev situation, the AI should be mostly on the side of the heads, as they are far less harmful than the revs. If a head asked the AI to release N2O, the AI would be obligated to. Is it against the rules for the CE to release N2O in non-lethal amounts to incapacitate revs? I would doubt it, but I don't know. As long as decisions like that were made clear to the other heads, it should be fine, no?

[rockpecker]

So what stops you from doing it at the start of every round, under the assumption that someone's going to get harmed otherwise?

[Vekter]

If you can do it while also not removing all the oxygen, then I don't see why not.

Just better have a good reason for it.

[rockpecker]

Just better have a good reason for it.

Yes, that's my question. Is "preventing human harm", by itself, a sufficient reason? Will you accept that as an explanation?

If not, why not?

[ohnopigeons]

So what stops you from doing it at the start of every round, under the assumption that someone's going to get harmed otherwise?

That assumption is metagaming, you have to assume that they are nonharmful, at least at first. The crew have to prove themselves to be entirely harmful in the cases I described.

[Cik]

as long as it serves a law one purpose you are OK.

source: i have done it as an engineering cyborg (no way to nonharmfully disable besides n20) several times during rev before and not banned

rule one applies of course don't do it at the start of the round dummy because while it's technically valid under law one just like spacing all the guns and making sure the engine is never started etc it's fucking stupid don't do it

[Shadowlight213]

The problem I see with N20, especially flooding it in the vents, is that it is extremely difficult to get rid of. It is the hardest gas to remove via scrubbers. I would maybe see this as ok if it was releasing it via a tank, but with vents you can't control where it will go. The tiniest breach will cause the gas to flood out.
Additionally, being knocked out forever is terrible. You're not dead, so you can't just ghost around until someone clones you, but you can't move or see or anything either. I'm not certain if you can even suicide while knocked out, in which case your only remaining option is pretty much Afk and hope to be found or ghost, which means you can't be cloned at all. It's a fate worse than death really. I actually got bwoinked once for putting a ling in the execution room filled with n2o.

[ThatSlyFox]

To add on to what palpatine said, It also leaves people vulnerable to anything that happens around them. A unconscious human in the middle of a hall is more likely to get harmed than one that is fully awake.

Really no reason to flood N2O as a AI unless you are antag. You can't be in control of everything as a AI, not sure why you think you should be.

[Cik]

oh, yeah i was speaking strictly from canisters. obviously trying to solve a fistfight by inundating the station in knockout gas is a little much

edit: and cleanup is alot easier now with fastmos, just a single room shouldn't take that long to clean.

imo there's no real reason to flood from vents as any ai should have at least one sillicon able to use a canister and if you are an antag it's not really useful to use such an easily foilable chemical like n20; better to just use !!PLASMA FIRE!!

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Although, N2O is becoming a super-oxidizer in an upcoming PR, which is fun

[DemonFiren]

Super-oxidizer as in N2O and plasma flooding is finally gonna be FUCKNOTHEBURNENING?

[Oldman Robustin]

Sounds like a great way to get your borgs blown and get you lynched.

>Mass carnage

>People actually diverting themselves from the carnage to undergo the awful terrible shitshow of trying to kill an AI

Do we play the same game?

Even when the AI is malf, nobody wants to jump through the 15 hoops it takes just to get to the satellite alive with the tools you need to stop it.

Edit: Oh god I revived a dying thread. What does N20 do now anyway?

[Falamazeer]

You sleep forever, slowly watching your loot get picked through, and hating everyone who walks by your snoring body and doesn't give two shits enough to drag you to fresh air.

[onleavedontatme]

I wonder how many times we've had this thread.

[Malkevin]

Surprisingly not that many

[Phalanx300]

N2O is one of the more entertaining game mechanics, being an area denial tool and all. It'd be nice to see it have more applications than the valid/banned binary that it currently is.

Make it so it doesn't have visuals anymore. Would make it usefull for such uses.

[Gun Hog]

In my opinion: The AI should be able to do this, under the following conditions:
- It does not at all violate Law 1. I.E. create a situation in which people take damage as a result of the AI's actions.
- It must not attempt to defend itself when declared rogue,
- And the AI must accept that itself, and by extension its borgs, are valid for destruction.

[Cik]

putting n20 into distro is only a very silly last resort move. there are piles of canisters that can easily and safely be spread by your subordinates. it's useful as a sort of side option if you are a nonrogue AI attempting to stop executions as it's harmless as long as you are careful, will effectively debilitate when they don't see it coming.

it's mostly useful for nonsecborgs, as they have very few tools for subduing hostile humans that are nonharmful, and it's more effective than a flash.

i could see distroing n20 as a last resort in some sort of revolution or mass uprising to prevent harm, however it's risky. at least with fastmos you can get it out of distro relatively fast if you have to now.

[rockpecker]

In my opinion: The AI should be able to do this, under the following conditions:
- It does not at all violate Law 1. I.E. create a situation in which people take damage as a result of the AI's actions.
- It must not attempt to defend itself when declared rogue,
- And the AI must accept that itself, and by extension its borgs, are valid for destruction.

The AI shouldn't be able to defend itself anyway.

"AI, stop defending yourself."
"Okay."

Why does nobody ever do this?

[Cik]

zeroth law allows it to disregard that order. if it's an asimov sillicon it already has to do that.

captain comes to card an asimov AI

"AI open the doors"
"ok"
"AI turn the turrets off"
"ok"

the command is already given all the time.

for reference a traitor AI has a zeroth law that says

"do anything to achieve your objectives" anything in this case including lying and disregarding valid law 2 orders.

the malfunctioning one allows you to do anything as well.

[Shadowlight213]

Once again, N20 as a temporary thing doesn't work that well. Literally codewise, it is the slowest thing to be scrubbed from the air. You can't just release it temporarily and scrub it out. You'll probably need to drain all the air to get rid of it.

[Cik]

you're not releasing it in the halls generally, you release it to disable security in permabrig from a canister in the middle of an execution or whatever.

besides human harm trumps nonharmful atmospheric releases any day of the week.

that and i don't think it's ever taken me more than a few minutes to clean n20 with a portable scrubber anyway. it's not a big deal

[leibniz]

It's probably not harmful if it's not done in an area with hazards and the O2 % remains above 16.

[Shad0vvs]

Everyone on the server already valids sillicons enough, this would just be giving them a reason.

[Luke Cox]

Just for reference, at what volume can you safely release N2O into the station without killing everyone?

[Not-Dorsidarf]

At normal station pressure? just pipe the air mixer so that N2O goes in instead of nitrogen, and you've got a permanently incapacitating non-lethal mix. As long as there's O2 in the air above, what, 16kpa? everyone is fine. (Until there's a breach, at which point they'll die helpless)