Make Changeling Not Terrible

[Tunder]

Changelings are, for all intents and purposes, useless now. They are reduced to doing stupid meme stuff like monkeyforming and EMPing, because the basic changeling game has been thoroughly nerfed in a not remotely balanced way, and then seemingly abandoned, while the objectives have not been made remotely more attainable. It is not fun for anyone who isn't being gimmicky, and it hasn't been for a very long time.

You can't do things like scream in a crowd because you'll get spotted as the only person not shaking, you can't defend yourself against a lot of newer antag stuns because the adrenal sacs were never updated.

Retire it or upgrade it, but it cannot be left in it's current, thoroughly unfun state.

[Steelpoint]

Honestly it should be retired and Shadowling should take its place. Changeling has been through so many iterations that no one actually has any clear idea of how exactly the Changeling should play, and to date the only engaging ways of making Changeling work are either now in the Shadowling or were deemed to powerful/unfun and removed.

Just put it out of its misery.

[CPTANT]

They were a lot better when they were actually deadly and were rewarded for killing.

but everyone went I DEAD NERF and ANTAGS ACTUALLY KILLING PEOPLE IS BAD

The entire point of the changeling concept is to induce fear of who the ling might be.

Now its just lololol the entire station is turned into the same person or some other bullshit. (why the f does tranformation sting still exist?)

Goon has the only remotely interesting iteration of ling currently.

[Reimoo]

Changeling has been through so many iterations that no one actually has any clear idea of how exactly the Changeling should play

I suggest everyone here go back and watch John Carpenter's 1982 movie The Thing to understand what it was intended to be in the first place.

It's a good movie.

[Cik]

changelings core problem in my opinion is that it's very very difficult to stealthily "take someone's place" that is, in order to take their place they have to be thoroughly out of commission, that usually means killing them. are changelings good at killing? yes of course they are, however they only really have one way of doing that and it's armblade; their stings are effectively worthless for offence. cryosting is a joke and is meta'd hard so everyone will immediately know it's changeling once you use it once on anyone which negates a huge part of your advantage. their only real escape option is monkey and ventcrawl.

to replace anyone important then becomes a crapshoot because you have to wait for the captain to venture into whatever part of maint you're lurking with no escort while no one is around and then you have to somehow armblade him in a way that doesn't leave a huge pool and blood trail, which isn't really possible. even taking the place of someone less important, like a sec officer isn't really possible, because of the implant. it just seems like infiltration is effectively impossible, so they are reduced to just ganking people in maint with the only part of their kit that matters, monkey and armblade, neither of which really suit the "shadowy creepy infiltrator wooo~" that everyone seems to think they should be. furthermore, the logistics of actually eating people without DNA sting are simply impossible, to eat them and then take all of their clothes takes literal minutes, and you could be jumped at anytime by anybody. if they get out so and so is a changeling!!!! your gig is mostly up; if you shapeshift but have the same clothes you will probably still be murdered in a hail of laser fire.

it's not really a problem for me, but they have one more disadvantage; as soon as an asimov AI sees you do anything obviously nonhuman it is obligated to fuck you as hard as it can at all times, so you don't even have the benefit that traitors get, which is hopefully being saved from execution or even set free.

anyway, it needs far more stealthy infiltration equipment. it really can't blend in or infiltrate anything. it needs thermoptic camouflage like aliums get, it needs a stealthier ventcrawling form, it needs things other than armblade to subdue people (stings that work for fuck sake) otherwise it's extremely nonthreatening except in the most obvious hurr durr armblade sense

[Steelpoint]

Changeling has been through so many iterations that no one actually has any clear idea of how exactly the Changeling should play

I suggest everyone here go back and watch John Carpenter's 1982 movie The Thing to understand what it was intended to be in the first place.

It's a good movie.

But that's the problem.

In order to replicate the movie you need a Changeling that is extremely deadly in 1v1 encounters but preforms poorly in engagements against multiple opponents. However this playstyle is HEAVILY detested by the power's that be.

The original concept for Changeling, as far as I can recall, was that the Changeling was very powerful when facing off against a lone target, but the Changelings powers are ill suited to engaging more than one target, at best it might be able to harry multiple opponents but otherwise Changelings should disengage from battle against multiple opponents. Eventually in the late game the Changeling would get access to more powerful abilities that allowed it to suddenly be able to take on a lot of the crew.

If you want to see how Changeling should work, go on Goonstation and wait for a Changeling round to occur.

Otherwise Shadowling is the closet we'll get to that original Thing/Changeling theme.

[Cik]

Changeling has been through so many iterations that no one actually has any clear idea of how exactly the Changeling should play

I suggest everyone here go back and watch John Carpenter's 1982 movie The Thing to understand what it was intended to be in the first place.

It's a good movie.

But that's the problem.

In order to replicate the movie you need a Changeling that is extremely deadly in 1v1 encounters but preforms poorly in engagements against multiple opponents. However this playstyle is HEAVILY detested by the power's that be.

The original concept for Changeling, as far as I can recall, was that the Changeling was very powerful when facing off against a lone target, but the Changelings powers are ill suited to engaging more than one target, at best it might be able to harry multiple opponents but otherwise Changelings should disengage from battle against multiple opponents. Eventually in the late game the Changeling would get access to more powerful abilities that allowed it to suddenly be able to take on a lot of the crew.

If you want to see how Changeling should work, go on Goonstation and wait for a Changeling round to occur.

Otherwise Shadowling is the closet we'll get to that original Thing/Changeling theme.

the only reason the changeling is good at 1v1 engagements is because it gets an esword and fleshmend, both potent weapons. otherwise it's basically helpless. both are extremely fucking obvious too. why it's an "infiltrator" when the only parts of it's kit that works are it's overt hand to hand weapons i don't know.

most of it's "stealth" options are garbage, it desperately needs improved stings, the ability to get through airlocks without being SENTIENT MONKEY KILLLLLLLLLL!!! and QOL improvements on it's shapeshifting that make it easier to use and maintain a disguise

[Steelpoint]

I'm referring to how Changelings used to be able to operate. It was highly controversial but it got results and it would end the round on a regular basis, which is something current Changelings can't attest to.

[Miauw]

Changeling has been through so many iterations that no one actually has any clear idea of how exactly the Changeling should play

I suggest everyone here go back and watch John Carpenter's 1982 movie The Thing to understand what it was intended to be in the first place.

It's a good movie.

people being picked off one by one makes for an exciting movie, yes.
what it does NOT make is an exciting game.

[Cik]

in fact, i got a few concrete suggestions for improving changelings stealth ability

thermoptic camouflage: like the alien hunter cloak, perhaps it turns them the color of the tile they are currently standing on? mite b cool cost ???

gravesting: renamed cryo/mute sting, but together so they are easier to apply. costs can simply be added together: note that if the costs remain the same this is an "all in" ability, meaning that if you use it and are killed in the short term you are 100% dead, however it's easy to apply and potent, unless your target has a backpack full of coffee and lasers you should easily be able to win a fight, and it's stealthy. will help win fights without armblade which should not be a required ability. cryosting component must act fast; as it is right now it's so fucking slow your target can run halfway across the station before he even starts to slow down. far too ineffective.

chemical glands: allows fabrication of small components of medical components inside your body, can be administered to yourself or by stinging others with a sting designed for the purpose. good way to poison others, or heal yourself of specific damages. should probably be a 'ala carte' system where you can purchase various chemicals for 1~ point each

gas glands: a cancerous looking tumor around your throat that can turn the station's oxygen into other chemicals, like nitrogen or N20. could be used to prepare rooms in advance of your target with poisonous gas. could be used while ventcrawling(?) should be very obvious on examine if active. would be very neat to be able to spray small amounts of n20 to knockout targets bloodlessly, or to poison rooms with high concentrations of c02 while lying in wait.

shapeshift: the core changeling ability, it needs a previously discussed improvement, auto-equipping of clothes. as it is it simply takes far too long to put all your target's shit on. if you pile it in a tile and then shapeshift into him ontop of it it should autoequip everything.

choke-eat: should be faster, as it is there is no reason to eat anybody ever, as DNA sting is effectively 'free' and much safer and faster.

transform sting: should either be removed or given a purpose. ideally you can use it to actually infiltrate things but mostly it's just hurr durr mekhistation13 or whatever because it really doesn't have a way it can be applied until you infiltrate something and as was previously discussed changelings can't infiltrate anything

on loyalty implants: generally i don't like changing immutable rules of the game but they might want to have something that can imitate loyalty implants; as it is unless you grab the HOP (or are him yourself) you can't really infiltrate a command position that can give orders to anyone. while the CE and RD are important to the station itself, it's very impossible to really fuck things up using your subordinates, because they will obviously know something's up. what i mean is

changeling CE: kenneth kemble! go turn off the emitters! obviously they will KNOW something is up, because they know what the emitters do.
changeling hos: kenneth kemble! go murder this fucking guy he's a changeling! this order is likely to be carried out, because security are used to taking intelligence from their superiors and acting on it without investigating themselves; security cannot function without this sort of trust. the same goes with the captain, of course.

armblade, fleshmend epi and monkey can stay as they are. they function, unfortunately they are the only parts of the kit that really do.

anyway just spitballin'

[CPTANT]

I'm referring to how Changelings used to be able to operate. It was highly controversial but it got results and it would end the round on a regular basis, which is something current Changelings can't attest to.

That. Changelings currently have zero incentive to even absorb people. (except for when you want a power reset which you don't need if you actually take good powers in the first place)

It seems that people have some horrible detest of antagonists in SS13 actually being deadly.

I WANT to be hunted by alien shapeshifters sucking the life out of me.

[Tunder]

Changeling has been through so many iterations that no one actually has any clear idea of how exactly the Changeling should play

I suggest everyone here go back and watch John Carpenter's 1982 movie The Thing to understand what it was intended to be in the first place.

It's a good movie.

people being picked off one by one makes for an exciting movie, yes.
what it does NOT make is an exciting game.

Arguable.

If done right and in an RP setting it makes for a good horror environment, with the /tg/ playstyle the strength in single combat will be abused to murderbone more often than not.


Ling needs to be shored up against validhunting, more than anything else. Now, not only is there a confirmed way to chemically check a ling's blood, but nobody ever has to use it because none of the ling abilities are remotely stealthy.

[Tunder]

Lings have no gas defense at all, and are as reliant on O2 canisters as everyone else, which should not be the case, adrenal sacs and panacea do nothing whatsoever to knockout gasses.

[Wyzack]

What if.absorbing people let you take their implants?

[Cik]

Lings have no gas defense at all, and are as reliant on O2 canisters as everyone else, which should not be the case, adrenal sacs and panacea do nothing whatsoever to knockout gasses.

this is very true. i think they should be able to have an internal air supply, make it a power and then put it in the top left corner. it just provides what is effectively an emergency air tank with about the same capacity that's usable via left clicking on something on the top left corner (like other activatable items(?)

What if absorbing people let you take their implants?

this is actually a great idea

[Remie Richards]

b-but the thing couldn't replicate metal in the movie :S

[Tunder]

b-but the thing couldn't replicate metal in the movie :S

The goal when creating changeling mustnt've been to mirror the Thing, as it is unrobust as fuck and not really scary in any way. Also no horror form.

[Cik]

b-but the thing couldn't replicate metal in the movie :S

it doesn't have to replicate it, it just has to rip it out and then fleshmorph it inside of itself, something that shouldn't be too hard for something that doesn't seem to care about morphing it's own body in ridiculous fast ridiculous difficult ways. it shouldn't be too hard to say, deform it's own shoulder, jam the implant inside and then morph around it again.

[Wyzack]

Or maybe you just suck it out with your proboscis like a tapioca ball in bubble tea

[lumipharon]

Changeling is pretty shitty now days, but people talking about ling abilities seem to ignore their two shrieks.

One autowins against borgs/anyone with augments, and assfucks sec. It also is a psuedo mute because no headset.
The other one completely fucks movement, making it impossible for someone to effectively fight you or run away.
Blindsting is also extremely crippling (especially combined with resonan shriek).

Also ling vision is bullshit as fuck.

Ling is pretty robust, but taking advantage of multiple abilities is pretty clunky. If we had GUI buttons to activate them, that would be a lot easier, but that could clog up the screenpretty fast.

[Cik]

none of them achieve what the thing is actually supposed to be able to do though

all of them are direct, overt combat abilities, the other ones that are supposed to achieve stealth are all trash