Current state of nuke ops

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lumipharon
 
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Current state of nuke ops

Postby lumipharon » Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:08 am #99559

Feed back due to all the changes ops have had, many recently.

Op aren't in a bad place right now, they have something like 50% win rate, but that's heavily influenced by population. Lowpop ops rarely lose.
This is more about some specific things I've noticed though.

1)Travel mode on their hardsuits still have lights

Why is this still (and ever) a thing? Pap's fluff was to help them 'see while flying around in space'.
This makes no sense because A: space is lit and B: ops have nvg's.

Keep it simple and intuitive. Travel mode is space proof, combat mode goes faster.

2) borgs, but more sigificantly mechs, are still way to strong for their cost.

Seriously, the SAW costs nearly as much as one borg, yet the borg is an extra body, infinite c-90 spam, all access, emag etc etc. If the ops really want to powergame, they basically can't lose if they get 3 syndie borgs.
Mechs, especially the mauler, are next to impossible to kill without an ion rifle. This is a problem, considering ops can just bomb the armory and space the rifle before anyone can use it.
I have NEVER seen a mauler die, except once where they didn't attack the armory. Honestly it's just too strong to deal with unless sec has the full armory of kit to try stop the damn thing.

3) Bulldogs overshadow alternative weapons.

Bulldogs now have slugs as default and purchasable ammo. This effectively means it's a revolver with 8 round capacity, that ops get for free. This is a 2 hit crit weapon on anyone except the HoS and captain.
Compare this to the other weapon choices. Also there's no reason to ever use anything but slugs, which is a damn shame.

Revolver is literally just worse.

C-20r is 14(I think)tc, and is also a 2 hit down, but it only does 20 brute per shot, the rest is stamina. The cost of a c-20r and 2 spare mags (60 shots total) is 18tc. That's 1200 damage in total. With 18tc, you can buy a ammobag + 4 more slug mags. That's 88 slugs + a mag of buckshot, taser and dragons breath to boot. The slugs alone total at 5280 brute.

M-90 isn't so bad because it's a 3 hit crit + it's magazine capacity is so much bigger (also grenades), but it still costs 18tc for the gun, + more for extra ammo and nades.

SAW is extremely expensive, and just a bulldog with higher capacity. Useful, but why buy that when you could just get a borg for almost the same cost?

Chem thrower has been nerfed a bit (it's shit at range) but it also suffers the same issue as buckshot in that it can easily friendly (or even self) fire.

Now I don't want to go back to buckshot, since it's shit, but something needs to be done.

Going along with the gun voucher idea, would it be possible to have ops not start with a gun, and make each uplink be able to purchase one (and only one) weapon from the list (bulldog/c-20/m-90/saw/thrower) at some sort of scaling cost.

So for example (with random arbitrary numbers), one op could choose the SAW, and pay 20tc.
Another op might buy the bulldog for 0 tc
A 3rd might get a c-20r for -5 tc
etc etc

Alternatively, could just increase the cost of slug mags and ammo bag.



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Re: Current state of nuke ops

Postby PKPenguin321 » Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:25 am #99568

For issue 3 how about just make the guns not do so much fucking damage
Back when they had eguns everything was fine, how much do those do? Like 20 per laser?
Make their guns do 20 brute per shot and raise the ammo capacity so they're basically brute versions of eguns that can be reloaded with a mag, problem solved
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TechnoAlchemist
 
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Re: Current state of nuke ops

Postby TechnoAlchemist » Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:34 am #99569

The mauler may be near impossible to kill but, it's so SO easy to outmaneuver and ignore. I remember one round the captain literally just walked away to science and then looped back through maint.

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Re: Current state of nuke ops

Postby onleavedontatme » Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:39 am #99572

Yeah but then you're stuck running in circles for 20 minutes while the mauler kills everyone/waiting for the shuttle.

And yes its pretty clear nuke op scaling has failed by the win rates.

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Re: Current state of nuke ops

Postby Steelpoint » Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:54 am #99602

Maulers cannot be killed, last time I tested them the only thing that could get rid of them was over one hundred rounds from a pulse rifle, and in think that was a bug because the mech simply deleted itself.

Last time I enquired into it I was just told it was working as intended as was shut out.

On topic, Ops need something to boost their high pop win rates and lower their low pop win rates, if there are too few people playing the Ops just steamroll the crew while of there are too many people the Ops run up to a brick wall they can't get around.
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Re: Current state of nuke ops

Postby Arete » Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:05 am #99606

Steelpoint wrote:On topic, Ops need something to boost their high pop win rates and lower their low pop win rates, if there are too few people playing the Ops just steamroll the crew while of there are too many people the Ops run up to a brick wall they can't get around.


Couldn't this be as simple as adjusting the TC scaling?

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Re: Current state of nuke ops

Postby Scones » Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:21 am #99610

Steelpoint wrote:Maulers cannot be killed


I've destroyed them and seen them destroyed. They're just extremely durable with both armor modules and a very high base integrity stat. Bombs are the way to go against them.
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Re: Current state of nuke ops

Postby Amnestik » Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:32 am #99613

Travel mode lights are pretty useful for maint. They don't make a difference in space either, so it doesn't matter that they're on out there.

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Re: Current state of nuke ops

Postby Oldman Robustin » Sun Jun 28, 2015 8:31 am #99623

I think some of these issues are overstated, but I definitely think stamina damage on the guns needs to go.

It already kills you in two shots, does it really fucking need to knock you down for 15 seconds after the first shot?

Like I said the armor thread, I ran onto the bridge as HoS with full armor + riot shield, and one burst from a C20r, which my shield blocked a shot on, had me on the ground - between the brute damage and the stamina damage it's pretty much a one-hit kill weapon (C20). Slugs are just about as bad.

Just let them rip your health apart, they dont need stamina stun crutches too.


Syndieborgs should go back to ebows IMO. Some idiot coder probably thought "BUT NUKEOPS ARE BALLISTICS NOW, WE HAVE TO GIVE THE BORG A LMG". But mostly its just crew being real shitty at borg fighting. One flashbang is all you need to end the borg. Flashbang, run in, pull the borg, and every time the ops will end up shooting their own borg to death trying to hit you. If they dont then just pull out a flash and drag it away for execution.

Flashbangs are ranged AoE borg stunners, use them.
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Re: Current state of nuke ops

Postby invisty » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:39 pm #99854

Why aren't nuke ops scaled in member count already? Bonus TC scaling only serves to make them more robust.

They already have:
a) A bunch of free weapons. The shotguns kick ass against anyone who isn't spamming tasers.
b) 20 base TCs in their uplinks.
c) 30 TCs of free C4, minibombs and bombs.
and on top of that they get bonus TCs for fun.

Spawn ops as 1/10th of server population IMO up to 5 ops, and give them X bonus TCs for every remainder of the equation. X could be a value between 2-4 that could be a server config for easy balancing.

Eg. if X = 3.
22 players = 2 ops + 6 bonus TC.
49 players = 4 ops + 27 bonus TC.
66 players= 5 ops + 48 bonus TC.
90 players= 5 ops + 120 bonus TC.

This would also permit ops to run as low as 20 server pop while retaining reasonable balance. I guess the main factor, however, is always down to sec/command population.
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Re: Current state of nuke ops

Postby Cik » Mon Jun 29, 2015 12:00 am #99856

mostly it's security, in order to fight ops well there needs to be a critical mass of security that can all be helping one another. they can fight toe <> toe as long as they can survive to retreat from the initial charge, wherever it comes from, but in lowpop there generally won't be enough of them, and it's always 5 ops; if you're going to implement scaling i'd have part of it being a command/sec combined pop or something to that effect.

the reason that nukeops win so often in lowpop is that nukeops get fucked over by a few things that are far more likely to happen in highpop

1. someone actually takes the disk (lel)

2. there are walls of people ready to disarm spam you

3. more medics

4. more sec

5. higher chance of AI and multiple borgs (especially sec) which can potentially ruin you

i do think OP# scaling would be a good thing, as it is you don't even need TC in lowpop rounds. 5 ops with hardsuits and stech could probably take on the whole station. in highpop no matter how many TCs you have it's simply never enough; you can only pack so much gear going in, as there are a limited amount of toolbelt/backpack slots you can use without it being a huge hassle.

lowpop i could see maybe 3 ops, highpop maybe as high as seven. seven would allow more firepower or a separate fireteam that enters in another place.

on syndiborgs: they are effective yes, but i think a big reason they are is they are almost without fail played by admins, and thus experienced players who probably have a much much higher average experience level, and especially at syndiborg (as they get it all the time) simply because they observe constantly. it's kit is good but it still gets ended by a single flashbang if alone, and the ion rifle fucks it as reliably as it fucks every other type of borg.

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Re: Current state of nuke ops

Postby cultist-chan » Mon Jun 29, 2015 3:13 am #99906

invisty wrote:Why aren't nuke ops scaled in member count already? Bonus TC scaling only serves to make them more robust.

They already have:
a) A bunch of free weapons. The shotguns kick ass against anyone who isn't spamming tasers.
b) 20 base TCs in their uplinks.
c) 30 TCs of free C4, minibombs and bombs.
and on top of that they get bonus TCs for fun.

Spawn ops as 1/10th of server population IMO up to 5 ops, and give them X bonus TCs for every remainder of the equation. X could be a value between 2-4 that could be a server config for easy balancing.

Eg. if X = 3.
22 players = 2 ops + 6 bonus TC.
49 players = 4 ops + 27 bonus TC.
66 players= 5 ops + 48 bonus TC.
90 players= 5 ops + 120 bonus TC.

This would also permit ops to run as low as 20 server pop while retaining reasonable balance. I guess the main factor, however, is always down to sec/command population.


This.

Edit but the scaling needs to be better

x is number of players

x>20 = 2 ops
x>30 = 3 ops
x>40= 4 ops
x>45= 5 ops

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Re: Current state of nuke ops

Postby Steelpoint » Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:51 am #99918

Scaling the actual Ops numbers seems interesting, but be wary of the amount of TC's the Ops gets. There's no point in having there being eight spawning Nuke Ops if the amount of TC's they get is identical to what they currently get.
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Re: Current state of nuke ops

Postby Cik » Mon Jun 29, 2015 5:27 am #99922

i disagree. more bodies is always better. more bodies gives you

greater stun soaking as a unit

much more health as a unit

many more hands to carry tools, guns, manipulate technology, etc

much harder to surround and disarm spam

more ability to drag (important crew or friendly ops to safety)

ability to split up

even if you decrease credits per op i think a bigger nukeop team would still be a massive buff. an op with even a stechkin is a dangerous combatant, and the OP shotguns with default ammo are very, very dangerous.

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Re: Current state of nuke ops

Postby cultist-chan » Mon Jun 29, 2015 5:46 am #99926

Cik wrote:i disagree. more bodies is always better. more bodies gives you

greater stun soaking as a unit

much more health as a unit

many more hands to carry tools, guns, manipulate technology, etc

much harder to surround and disarm spam

more ability to drag (important crew or friendly ops to safety)

ability to split up

even if you decrease credits per op i think a bigger nukeop team would still be a massive buff. an op with even a stechkin is a dangerous combatant, and the OP shotguns with default ammo are very, very dangerous.


More bodies is always better thats why we want to nerf it

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Re: Current state of nuke ops

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Mon Jun 29, 2015 6:40 am #99937

Oldman Robustin wrote:I think some of these issues are overstated, but I definitely think stamina damage on the guns needs to go.

It already kills you in two shots, does it really fucking need to knock you down for 15 seconds after the first shot?

Like I said the armor thread, I ran onto the bridge as HoS with full armor + riot shield, and one burst from a C20r, which my shield blocked a shot on, had me on the ground - between the brute damage and the stamina damage it's pretty much a one-hit kill weapon (C20). Slugs are just about as bad.


Slugs don't do stamina damage, and if they do, it's a bug.

Definitely going to look at reducing bulldog slugs to 40 brute.

The CR-20 used to just flat-out give you a 2-second stun, it's been nerfed since it was the default weapon
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Re: Current state of nuke ops

Postby lumipharon » Mon Jun 29, 2015 11:44 pm #100193

Ironically probably the best weapon in the game is the detectives revolver.

For whatever retarded reason, during all the stun nerf wars, it's ended up with more damage (15 I believe), a 3s stun AND huge amount of stam damage.
So it's a 1 hit stun, and if you get up, you're barely able to move because of the stam damage. 2 shots is enough to stun you with just the stam damage also.

lights need to be removed from nuke op hardsuits though.
They're not only completely useless to ops, they actually hurt them, since it makes them visible in the dark (powersinks/maint etc).

Low pop ops could be better with less ops, but it honestly does depend a lot on how many sec there are.
High pop ops could use more ops, but mechs/borg spam should really be adjusted, since it's super unfun. Is it possible to hard limit how man borgs you can spawn?


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